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Ukraine fears Russia 'ready to attack'
yahoo ^ | March 23, 2014 | By Dmitry ZAKS

Posted on 03/23/2014 9:33:11 AM PDT by Jim Robinson

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To: Sola Veritas

It is not nonsense...and don’t tell me that our founders did not see a need for revolution, violent if necessary! The communists have practically taken apart our nation and we are still hoping for a solution from our election. In the meantime, greater and greater portions of our wealth are being systematically stolen from us by the establishments strong arm, the irs, thousands of babies are being slaughtered in their mothers wombs, and the God given and beautiful union of men and women is turned upside down with men and women lusting and having sex with each other, claiming it is their American right. Not to mention the brainwashing of our most precious citizens in the socialist public school system, creating a doubt about our Father in heaven with the Marxists manufactured lie of macro-evolution.
I pray that another revolution is not needed too, but at the very least, I think this destruction of the heavenly order that once was free enterprise is going to break down into massive civil violence when the spoiled rotten recipients of illegal excessive taxations, no longer are able to get the spoils from a collapsed economy. At that point we can have a renewed America, but sadly, not before a whole lot of bloodshed.


51 posted on 03/23/2014 5:52:31 PM PDT by fabian (" And a new day will dawn for those who stand long, and the forests will echo in laughter")
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To: JPX2011
I think both you and I realize that wholesale change is required to do that.

Yes, in this we agree. No doubt. I've also pointed out that I am not optimistic in the near term. We really might not make it too much longer without some kind of implosion. The problem with things like this that lead to revolutions is you never know what will follow, so you are correct to point that out as well.

My quibble here is only that there is something sitting out there that is better than what we have. Just because our system eventually rots, doesn't mean it wasn't the best thing going. Putin is no savior for the Russians. He may leave a legacy, but then so do most leaders that hang around awhile. The reality is Putin is grinding to a halt any chance the Russians had to move past totalitarianism and towards individual liberty. There is no good future in that. State/national socialism we know fails. It just doesn't work, so that isn't a realistic option either. A Judeo-Christian strongman might get you a few years, but what happens when he/she dies? With no working democratic institutions in place, what follows will probably be some family member or a person from the ruling elite. With no outlet for the people to make change, they will eventually revolt. And what then? The only answer is what we've seen before, governments led by strongmen, no matter how well intentioned, simply repress their people (even less individual liberty) to quell dissent.

We have a flawed, but amazing Constitution that has served us well. The entire system is fraying and may not last too much longer. But the answer is to build upon what worked and craft/amend the document in such a way to avoid the things that caused the rot from happening again. As I've expressed, in my view a simple start is to specifically write out any role the federal government can have in administering a social welfare state. I'd also reinforce the idea of state sovereignty, among other things. To buy into this though, you have to accept that the process takes time. There is no magic bullet here or great leader that will come along and fix everything.

Coming back to socialism and the social welfare state, I will leave you with this as food for thought. Even a strongman like Chavez will probably NOT be remembered for the mess he made of Venezuela's economy, he will most likely be remembered as the guy who reminded all of central and south America's wanna-be politicians that you simply can't leave a majority (50%+1), non driven/low productive folks though they may be, of people feeling like the society favors "the rich". No matter how fair and reasonable a system you create, only a minority of people seem to take advantage and become the entrepreneurs and business owners. With that in mind, and taking into account human nature, a pure free market system may always result in a disparity that causes the "masses" to revolt, overthrow it, and put in place destructive populist left policies. This is why, though social welfare policies need to be blocked at the federal level, it is important to leave states and localities the ability to enact safety net type policies. Though inefficient, they are the kinds of things that essentially buy off enough of the non producers and prevent the whole system from being destroyed due to envy tied with a lack of ambition of the majority.

Anyway, thanks for the thought provoking posts. Enjoyable discussion indeed.

Cheers!

52 posted on 03/23/2014 6:52:44 PM PDT by Longbow1969
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To: Sola Veritas
Sadly, not with the outdated equipment they possess.

The Ukraine has only a few thousand actual soldiers of any quality. Otherwise they have a large group of interior police, border gaurds and conscript rabble. Their equipment is mostly trash, and much of what they have can't drive, fly, float or do anything other than make nice targets.

The Russian military is also somewhat of a paper tiger, but it's still much bigger than what the Ukraine has - and more importantly if an actual land battle broke out the Russians would have immediate air dominance and savage any large columns of Ukranian infantry or armor.

If invaded, the Ukranians would have to fight a guerrilla campaign and bleed the Russians till they left. Someone like Stalin would have crushed such a thing, Putin probably doesn't have the luxury of using those sorts of tactics in today's globalized world where pictures and video are almost impossible to stop.

If Russia pushes further into the Ukraine it would probably only be some of the eastern regions of the country. If they actually marched on Kiev, the Ukranians, given time, could make such an occupation very painful. That could be one of the worst mistakes Putin could make. The end result would most likely be devastating for Russia, and an absolute end to the dreams of recreating their empire.

53 posted on 03/23/2014 7:05:11 PM PDT by Longbow1969
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To: Longbow1969
Russia's military is also not nearly as capable as this chart makes it appear. Maybe 10% of Russia's military is 1st world capable, but they'd still quickly overcome anything the Ukrainians could throw at them.

The Russians do not completely have to mobilize their entire army into the Ukraine. Use Spetnaz, gain complete air dominance, and eastern Ukraine is theirs. All could be done in 24 hours.

54 posted on 03/23/2014 7:23:43 PM PDT by MinorityRepublican
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To: fabian

“It is not nonsense...and don’t tell me that our founders did not see a need for revolution, violent if necessary!”

First, let me assure you I fully share all the concerns you expressed in the rest of this post. At times of despair, I often fear that violent actions will be needed to bring about a correction. Then, when not despairing and thinking more rationally, I realize that violence - even considering it - is not the answer. It would just make us the insurgents and give the left and others excuses to further erode the Constitution.

We must not violate the constitution in order to save it. Also, think on the fact that Thomas Jefferson referred to the election of 1800 as the “Revolution of 1800.” It was not mere whimsy he used the word “Revolution.” A major change had occurred with the switch from Adams to Jefferson (I do not take sides on whether the change was good or not!). The point is that Jefferson considered it a “Revolution.” There was NOTHING violent about it, and it was accomplished by constitutional means. So, don’t be so certain that the Founders meant for there to be future bloody overthrows as long as the constitution was being followed. The American Civil War was ultimately due to a breakdown in the COTUS....it was very bloody.


55 posted on 03/23/2014 7:32:01 PM PDT by Sola Veritas (Trying to speak truth - not always with the best grammar or spelling)
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To: MinorityRepublican
The Russians do not completely have to mobilize their entire army into the Ukraine. Use Spetnaz, gain complete air dominance, and eastern Ukraine is theirs. All could be done in 24 hours.

I don't disagree, the Eastern Ukraine is basically theirs for the taking if they want to pursue that option.

While they could do it, there are a lot of downsides. Putin isn't really holding the strong hand he projects. It only looks that way because the US has an idiot for President and the West in general is weak.

56 posted on 03/23/2014 7:33:18 PM PDT by Longbow1969
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To: Sola Veritas

Point is..evil, when it is deeply embedded, always takes violence im order to stop its destruction of all that is good and holy. We must not be provoked to that end, but kt only comes as the last resort...exactly what happened im the rebellion against king George. And there was not nearly the evil rampant im the colonies as is happening now.


57 posted on 03/23/2014 7:57:30 PM PDT by fabian (" And a new day will dawn for those who stand long, and the forests will echo in laughter")
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To: Jim Robinson

Russified? Change the “R” to a “P” and you have a perfect description of obama.


58 posted on 03/23/2014 8:11:04 PM PDT by VerySadAmerican (".....Barrack, and the horse Mohammed rode in on.")
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To: Longbow1969

it was suggested that Russia be cut off from all banking services (no credit card/paypal/check clearing). I supposed they would just use Serbian Cypriot or Chinese banks.


59 posted on 03/23/2014 8:13:38 PM PDT by RitchieAprile
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To: ResisTyr
Ummm, the people of Crimea voted over 97% in favor of joining the Russian Federation.

Sounds like a typical Soviet election not so long ago...

60 posted on 03/23/2014 8:31:12 PM PDT by Paul R. (Leftists desire to control everything; In the end they invariably control nothing worth a damn.)
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To: BenLurkin

Russia will annihilate the Ukraine after 8 hours of bombing. And thew Georgia. You see ,in the real world “might makes right.”


61 posted on 03/23/2014 8:31:31 PM PDT by SADMILLIE
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To: ResisTyr

Yeah, I’m surprised Putin only got 97% support in a vote like that. He could have gotten 105% or higher using the techniques he used.


62 posted on 03/23/2014 11:45:15 PM PDT by elhombrelibre (Against Obama. Against Putin. Pro-freedom.)
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To: elhombrelibre

Crimea isn’t Philadelphia.


63 posted on 03/23/2014 11:49:01 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: dfwgator

Deep insight.


64 posted on 03/24/2014 4:22:20 AM PDT by elhombrelibre (Against Obama. Against Putin. Pro-freedom.)
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To: Jim Robinson

I really don’t get this. What’s all this news of an “imminent” invasion? Didn’t they already invade and take Crimea? Does that no longer count since they had an “election”? Sorry for all the finger quotes, but I felt they were necessary.


65 posted on 03/24/2014 6:21:53 AM PDT by andyk (I have sworn...eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.)
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To: dfwgator

Love it! I need to use that.....


66 posted on 03/24/2014 7:51:12 AM PDT by TangledUpInBlue (I have no home. I'm the wind.)
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To: Jim Robinson

watch the other hand - obama told putin here awhile back he would have more flexibility after his 2nd term election ...
putin is playing chess and obummer is playing marbles, and badly at that.
what happens if putin marches right down our western flank aided by obummers ineptitude?

Just loud thoughts


67 posted on 03/24/2014 10:00:10 AM PDT by WorkerbeeCitizen (am in the process of not complying)
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To: Jim Robinson

Here’s a pretty much daily accounting of Ukraine by a lady who lives there, starting back in December of last year up through March 22 2014.

http://www.elenafilatova.com/index.html

Elena Filatova is the young woman who did the Chernobyl ride-through and photo journal. She lives there, and was on the ground during the Orange Revolution of ten years ago, and also during the Maidan chaos.

Her photos are amazing, and show the Ukrainian people battling in the streets.


68 posted on 03/24/2014 11:22:36 AM PDT by NFHale (The Second Amendment - By Any Means Necessary.)
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To: SunkenCiv

Excellent advice.

“, beginning with everyone known to have publically sided with the invasion”

Yes lovely idea; I wish I could fly over and help.


69 posted on 03/24/2014 5:50:58 PM PDT by CorporateStepsister (I am NOT going to force a man to make my dreams come true)
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To: Jim Robinson

Last time I checked Obummer and his cronies helped disarm the Ukraine during his cup of coffee as an Imperial Senator...

I know we were all supposed to throw our memories and common sense in the nearest Memory Hole when Imam Obama was made Ruler of the Realm, but my mama always taught me to tell the truth.

:)


70 posted on 03/24/2014 5:55:17 PM PDT by Absolutely Nobama (The Doomsday Clock is at 11:59:55......tick-tock, tick-tock, tick-tock.....)
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To: Star Traveler

Obama is just being flexible.

Has anyone asked Bill Clinton what he thinks we should do? After all, he’s the one who disarmed Ukraine.


71 posted on 03/25/2014 2:37:21 PM PDT by VerySadAmerican (".....Barrack, and the horse Mohammed rode in on.")
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