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Tragedy Exposes N.Y. City Infrastructure Woes (Crumbling - Too Expensive to Fix)
The Bond Buyer ^ | Paul Burton

Posted on 03/23/2014 8:49:45 PM PDT by Titus-Maximus

The fatal explosion in East Harlem this month added an exclamation point to a report calling for New York City to deal with its crumbling infrastructure.

The March 12 blast, which killed eight people and reduced two tenements to rubble, came one day after the Center for an Urban Future issued the report, which identified $47 billion in capital needs over five years for the nation's biggest city.

While the tragedy focused attention New York's 6,300 miles of gas mains, which average 56 years old, according to the report, it also fueled concern over the potentially dire consequences of delay by city, regional and state agencies in shoring up the area's aging bridges, roads and school buildings.

Mayor Bill de Blasio might get his expanded pre-kindergarten at Albany's expense, but could bridges the kids cross collapse like the I-35 span in Minneapolis seven years ago? Will their classroom roofs cave in?

"It seems like we've started a conversation," said Jonathan Bowles, the center's executive director.

On March 21, engineer and transportation guru Sam Schwartz steered the conversation to transportation, resuming his call for a congestion-easing plan that he said could raise $1.5 billion annually for road and bridge repair. "The federal government isn't going to rescue us. We need some solutions," he said at an infrastructure forum at Baruch College in Manhattan, sponsored by the Regional Plan Association.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: crumblingcities
NYC cannot raised the taxes enough, nor could Con Ed raise utility rates high enough to fix the crumbling infrastructure. Richest city in the world cannot pay its bills. They were spending money on all the wrong things for years.

If Con Ed asked to raise utility rates to fix this disgrace they would be laughed out of Albany. So instead they manage their physical plant to catastrophe, and then shrug their shoulders and say they need more money.

Brittle cast iron gas pipes, 5600 miles with an average age of 56 years - leaking, waiting to rupture!

The 6800 miles of water mains that have an average life of 60 years are breaking all the time, flooding streets, subways and basements. Closing neighborhoods for days on end. More to come...

1 posted on 03/23/2014 8:49:46 PM PDT by Titus-Maximus
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To: Titus-Maximus

this illustrates why liberals want agenda 21 to force people in urban areas back into urban cities. there are many reasons, mostly control ones, but the other main ones are for their money. they are trying “regionalism” as a way to get more $$$ from suburbs but they are also pushing to force people back into liberal-politically’controlled areas to get their money.


2 posted on 03/23/2014 8:52:47 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (Gone Galt; Not averse to Going Bronson.)
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To: Titus-Maximus

How long before white people are blamed?


3 posted on 03/23/2014 8:58:31 PM PDT by barmag25 (There is nothing that a man needs that he can't find in the North Georgia mountains.)
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To: Titus-Maximus

I think the time of nation-states and huge cities is probably passing. Of course, I wouldn’t ask for a magic wand and make the world into a utopia of my own design — I’m not a kooky leftist. But I would suggest that city-states which attempt to be self-sufficient in as many areas as possible (ex. food supply) make a lot more sense (to me) than cities that simply can’t maintain their own infrastructure. I see so many nations about to default on debts that top $100T and I think: they got big and dumb. Maybe small and free would work better.


4 posted on 03/23/2014 8:58:32 PM PDT by ClearCase_guy
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To: Titus-Maximus

Six years ago this country spent $600 billion on infrastructure projects.


5 posted on 03/23/2014 9:05:02 PM PDT by Vince Ferrer
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To: Vince Ferrer
Six years ago this country spent $600 billion on infrastructure projects.

If you are referring to Porkulus, it was almost $900 billion. And most of it went to the blue states, to maintain employment of unionized public employees.

Very few infrastructure projects were actually undertaken.

6 posted on 03/23/2014 9:09:02 PM PDT by okie01 (The Mainstream Media -- IGNORANCE ON PARADE)
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To: Vince Ferrer
Six years ago this country spent $600 billion on infrastructure projects.

Probably only 10% went to actual work on the infrastructure.

With the money the Feds put up to deal with foreclosures it went like this. Feds take 25% to administer the program. Then to the States that take 25% to administer the program. Then to the county that gets to take 10% to administer the program. By the time it got to the local level there were no funds to make any meaningful difference.

These are fund the government programs first.

7 posted on 03/23/2014 9:13:55 PM PDT by gunsequalfreedom (Conservative is not a label of convenience. It is a guide to your actions.)
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To: barmag25

>> How long before white people are blamed?

Plenty of White socialists that make up the unions, political network, and voting block.

I’ll happily blame the “white people” which is not to excuse the “black people” that are largely socialists and equally responsible.


8 posted on 03/23/2014 9:23:20 PM PDT by Gene Eric (Don't be a statist!)
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To: Titus-Maximus

The I-35 bridge collapse had nothing to do with “crumbling infrastructure”.

**********

On November 13, 2008, the NTSB released the findings of its investigation. The primary cause was the under-sized gusset plates, at 0.5 inches (13 mm) thick. Contributing to that design or construction error was the fact that 2 inches (51 mm) of concrete were added to the road surface over the years, increasing the dead load by 20%. Also contributing was the extraordinary weight of construction equipment and material resting on the bridge just above its weakest point at the time of the collapse. That load was estimated at 578,000 pounds (262,000 kg) consisting of sand, water, and vehicles. The NTSB determined that corrosion was not a significant factor, but that inspectors did not routinely check that safety features were functional.


9 posted on 03/23/2014 9:31:54 PM PDT by ltc8k6
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To: Titus-Maximus
when they replaced the water lines in Watkins ~20 years ago they found over half were still wooden water mains...

wouldn't surprise me if there are still some in NYC

10 posted on 03/23/2014 9:44:32 PM PDT by Chode (Stand UP and Be Counted, or line up and be numbered - *DTOM* -vvv- NO Pity for the LAZY - 86-44)
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To: Titus-Maximus

You know where this is leading, right?

NYC Federal Bailout, Part Deux.


11 posted on 03/23/2014 9:46:38 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: Titus-Maximus
ConEd does have one of the largest shares of cast iron pipe. This was installed during the times of manufactured gas.

There was a follow-up last week about the failure. One of the problems was something the companies tried years ago, but abandoned. That was the practice of slipping plastic lines into the cast iron. There were two problems with this approach. First, cast iron pipe is not smoot and internally this damages and cuts the pipe as it is inserted. The second problems deals with the difference of temperature related expansion and contraction properties with plastic and cast iron.

There were cases many years ago where the service sheared from the main because of the difference between plastic and cast iron. New York had a very cold winter and I would not be surprised this played a contributing role in the failure.

Finally, if there is a leak, it is very difficult to locate. The gas can travel quite a distance when the cast iron main is the carrier pipe for the plastic upgrade.

Old pipe by itself is not a problem if it is steel. There are numerous corrosion mitigation methods to prevent if not slow down corrosion related failures. Cast Iron and Wrought Iron are totally different. These mains do need to be replaced and the cost will be astronomical.

Some of the cost is also related to byproducts of manufactured gas that remain in the mains.
12 posted on 03/23/2014 9:48:13 PM PDT by PA Engineer (Liberate America from the Occupation Media.)
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To: PA Engineer

not to steal the thread- but have there not been improvements in religning old pipe.
I believe somewhere I saw that old galvanzed water/sewer pipes were being religned with opoxy process.
I would think that would also work with gaspipe or black pipe.


13 posted on 03/23/2014 9:51:18 PM PDT by Nailbiter
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To: ltc8k6

Gas line piping is not constructed of cast iron pipe!
It is Steel pipe with cast iron fittings.
The prob is electrolysis comes in to play. After 56 years the piping will be compromised with corrosion due to this. I have seen holes the size of your thumb in some lines 30 years old.
Underground Gas lines now have a Teflon coating and fittings are wrapped in a special tape to prevent this or the line is constructed of a plastic that is immune to electrolysis.
These lines will have to be replaced to prevent future disasters of this nature. Utility companies love to collect the bill, but fail when it comes to upkeep and innovation.


14 posted on 03/23/2014 9:53:59 PM PDT by DocJhn
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To: Nailbiter
Can not be done with Cast Iron. Cast Iron over time suffers a process called grafitization. The iron corrodes away (especially at the bell and spigot connection) and leaves behind the graphite. It is really not apparent during excavation, but is startling when the pipe is sand blasted.

Graphite is very porous and may leak on it's own, however slowly. The problem is graphite absorbs a great deal of water. Graphite is brittle to begin with during freeze thaw heaving, but can also freeze and break.

Replacement is really the only solution.
15 posted on 03/23/2014 10:04:10 PM PDT by PA Engineer (Liberate America from the Occupation Media.)
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To: DocJhn
Gas line piping is not constructed of cast iron pipe!

There are many thousand miles of cast iron gas main. This is a leftover from the days of munufactured gas. Cast Iron mains were generally larger than normal distribution piping, because it was also part of the storage system when gas was manufactured.

It is Steel pipe with cast iron fittings.

The pipe is indeed cast iron and the joints may be lead or an abestos packing. The joint gasket was fine when wet gas was the poduct of manufactured gas. The joints did not dry out till the mains were switched over to dry gas. Many companies have been installing epoxy filled bags at the joints to address this problem.

Underground Gas lines now have a Teflon coating and fittings are wrapped in a special tape to prevent this or the line is constructed of a plastic that is immune to electrolysis.

Most piping now uses an extrusion coating and are Cathodically protected from corrosion. Plastic is fine, but many companies still rely on steel for the distribution mains. This is a safety issue. Service lines are now in many cases plastic.
16 posted on 03/23/2014 10:15:55 PM PDT by PA Engineer (Liberate America from the Occupation Media.)
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To: Nailbiter; DocJhn
Here is a good link for reference from the DOT. It may take a few seconds to load for the different company Cast Iron Pipe inventory. It gives a very decent explanation of the problem.

Pipeline Replacement Updates

Many years ago I was on a couple of technical committees regarding this problem. A handful of other engineers and myself were the first ones to raise the alarm on what was considered best practices at the time.
17 posted on 03/23/2014 10:29:56 PM PDT by PA Engineer (Liberate America from the Occupation Media.)
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To: PA Engineer

Thanks - I will read thru


18 posted on 03/23/2014 10:59:13 PM PDT by Nailbiter
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To: Titus-Maximus

Looks like deBlasio’s city is crumbling...and he is chasing the people with money out of the city.

Nice move there, clown.


19 posted on 03/24/2014 12:54:27 AM PDT by SoFloFreeper
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To: PA Engineer

Thanks for posting. This is one of things I enjoy about FR...you obviously know what you are talking about here, and there are many issues where I get insight into issues that are provided by Freepers who are specialists in certain areas.

It is one of the reasons I stopped watching television generally over a year ago, and network news specifically. They always have some BS expert on who is only on there to buttress the viewpoint/agenda of the media.

Granted, it takes effort to separate the BS wheat from the chaff on the Internet, but one develops an ear for authenticity.

In any case, thanks for contributing.


20 posted on 03/24/2014 2:27:00 AM PDT by rlmorel ("A nation, despicable by its weakness, forfeits even the privilege of being neutral." A. Hamilton)
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To: DocJhn

I didn’t post that...


21 posted on 03/24/2014 3:52:07 AM PDT by ltc8k6
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To: Titus-Maximus

“They were spending money on all the wrong things for years.”

This is the case throughout much of the northeast, and I suspect in many older urban areas throughout the country. So much of the revenues end up in the pockets of government workers, and little is maintained/replaced. On top of the deferred maintenance of the infrastructure, there are massive pension liabilities that have been eating up current revenue. Rather than be soaked to pay for people who stopped working decades ago, companies (and where possible, their employees) are fleeing these high costs, shrinking the tax base.

A real eye-opener was when NY state and the city were fighting to have the bailed-out banks giver their senior employees their annual bonuses; both the state and the city (which has its own income tax) were dependent on the tax revenue generated by those bonuses.

I see the condition of some of my children’s textbooks, and you’d think they were attending a missionary school in West Africa; the same problem is happening in schools (to the point where it is in our tax code that teachers can get credit or deductions for school supplies they buy themselves). It is a disgrace, and few pliticians will address it.


22 posted on 03/24/2014 3:54:11 AM PDT by kearnyirish2 (Affirmative action is economic war against white males (and therefore white families).)
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To: Secret Agent Man

Many will simply refuse.


23 posted on 03/24/2014 4:40:56 AM PDT by Biggirl (“Go, do not be afraid, and serve”-Pope Francis)
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To: Titus-Maximus
A Third world people can not maintain a First world infrastructure.

The New York Post reported that that the tenets of the exploded buildings had smelled gas for almost two years!

24 posted on 03/24/2014 5:31:30 AM PDT by Count of Monte Fisto (The foundation of modern society is the denial of reality.)
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To: PA Engineer

Much of the natural gas pipeline system was constructed in the 1930s and 1940s before many of the then small towns and rural areas across the country were developed into today’s larger cities and suburban areas. Learn about the development of the system across the Southwest US,[6] Southeast,[7] Western US,[8] Midwest US,[9] and Northeast US[10] Much of the gas pipeline was made—and continues to be made today – {of steel in diameters of 6 inches to up to 48 inches.}

Been in the NG business since 1974 and some the lines we replaced were 30+ years old then, never saw a cast iron Gas line. Lead and oakum joints with cast iron pipe were for sewer not NG.


25 posted on 03/24/2014 6:17:56 AM PDT by DocJhn
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To: DocJhn
Why are you posting this? It has nothing to do with the subject. We are discussing the incident in Harlem. Did you read the link?

You were wrong about your first posting and now you are tossing up mud. Man up and give it a rest.

The DOT lists 30,844 miles of main still in service. I don't know where you live, but I am sure you can request that one of the southern companies there allow you to sit in when they do a bellhole examination.
26 posted on 03/24/2014 11:24:02 AM PDT by PA Engineer (Liberate America from the Occupation Media.)
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To: PA Engineer

I don’t see Idaho or Nevada on the list. Why?


27 posted on 03/24/2014 12:54:42 PM PDT by B4Ranch (Name your illness, do a Google & YouTube search with "hydrogen peroxide". Do it and be surprised.)
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To: B4Ranch

Well I just know what I know man. I dug up prob more gas lines with a 580 case and replaced them than most people.
Ng will follow a ditch line and surface at the least amount of resistance such as a foundation wall and can collect under a structure and then be captured in that space and explode!If I’m wrong I’m wrong. Fine you win the urine contest!
NG lines can also be compromised with electrolysis at the entry point of a structure if they are in contact with a concrete block creating a hole in the line allowing NG to enter the dwelling!
These are not things I have read about but what I have witnessed! I will be corrected on one item. NG piping is constructed of sch 40 Iron Pipe with malleable fitting of cast iron. Normally referred to as T&C which means threaded and coupled.


28 posted on 03/24/2014 1:15:15 PM PDT by DocJhn
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To: B4Ranch
I don’t see Idaho or Nevada on the list. Why?

Most likely because of the timeline when cities used manufacturfed gas. The first natural gas well (Haymaker) wasn't until the late 1880s. Up to that time many homes were heated and lit by manufactured natural gas. It was not until the late 1880s that the first AC distribution network was built in Massachusetts.

I am guessing that heating was provided in other forms and lighting was kerosene.
29 posted on 03/24/2014 1:32:42 PM PDT by PA Engineer (Liberate America from the Occupation Media.)
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To: Titus-Maximus

A physical representation of a spiritual condition.


30 posted on 03/24/2014 1:46:09 PM PDT by inpajamas (http://outskirtspress.com/ONE)
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To: All

“fixing” the NYC infrastructure will cost upwards of 1,000,000,000,000..


31 posted on 03/24/2014 1:49:30 PM PDT by newnhdad (Our new motto: USA, it was fun while it lasted.)
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To: PA Engineer

My only concern was the CAST IRON Pipe with jute and lead joints and so called wet joints still in service conveying NG the reporter is mistaken! I will call the NYC NG provider tomorrow and ask this question! And will re-post!


32 posted on 03/24/2014 3:31:13 PM PDT by DocJhn
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To: Chode

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dep/html/news/dep_stories_p2-101.shtml

Wooden Mains from the 1820’s discovered in NYC 2006...


33 posted on 03/24/2014 8:13:05 PM PDT by Neidermeyer (I used to be disgusted , now I try to be amused.)
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To: Neidermeyer
bingo... long as they're wet they won't rot
34 posted on 03/24/2014 8:18:50 PM PDT by Chode (Stand UP and Be Counted, or line up and be numbered - *DTOM* -vvv- NO Pity for the LAZY - 86-44)
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