Tragedy Exposes N.Y. City Infrastructure Woes (Crumbling - Too Expensive to Fix)

The Bond Buyer ^ | Paul Burton

[Titus-Maximus]

The fatal explosion in East Harlem this month added an exclamation point to a report calling for New York City to deal with its crumbling infrastructure.

The March 12 blast, which killed eight people and reduced two tenements to rubble, came one day after the Center for an Urban Future issued the report, which identified $47 billion in capital needs over five years for the nation's biggest city.

While the tragedy focused attention New York's 6,300 miles of gas mains, which average 56 years old, according to the report, it also fueled concern over the potentially dire consequences of delay by city, regional and state agencies in shoring up the area's aging bridges, roads and school buildings.

Mayor Bill de Blasio might get his expanded pre-kindergarten at Albany's expense, but could bridges the kids cross collapse like the I-35 span in Minneapolis seven years ago? Will their classroom roofs cave in?

"It seems like we've started a conversation," said Jonathan Bowles, the center's executive director.

On March 21, engineer and transportation guru Sam Schwartz steered the conversation to transportation, resuming his call for a congestion-easing plan that he said could raise $1.5 billion annually for road and bridge repair. "The federal government isn't going to rescue us. We need some solutions," he said at an infrastructure forum at Baruch College in Manhattan, sponsored by the Regional Plan Association.

[Titus-Maximus]

NYC cannot raised the taxes enough, nor could Con Ed raise utility rates high enough to fix the crumbling infrastructure. Richest city in the world cannot pay its bills. They were spending money on all the wrong things for years.

If Con Ed asked to raise utility rates to fix this disgrace they would be laughed out of Albany. So instead they manage their physical plant to catastrophe, and then shrug their shoulders and say they need more money.

Brittle cast iron gas pipes, 5600 miles with an average age of 56 years - leaking, waiting to rupture!

The 6800 miles of water mains that have an average life of 60 years are breaking all the time, flooding streets, subways and basements. Closing neighborhoods for days on end. More to come...

[Secret Agent Man]

this illustrates why liberals want agenda 21 to force people in urban areas back into urban cities. there are many reasons, mostly control ones, but the other main ones are for their money. they are trying “regionalism” as a way to get more $$$ from suburbs but they are also pushing to force people back into liberal-politically’controlled areas to get their money.

[barmag25]

How long before white people are blamed?

[ClearCase_guy]

I think the time of nation-states and huge cities is probably passing. Of course, I wouldn’t ask for a magic wand and make the world into a utopia of my own design — I’m not a kooky leftist. But I would suggest that city-states which attempt to be self-sufficient in as many areas as possible (ex. food supply) make a lot more sense (to me) than cities that simply can’t maintain their own infrastructure. I see so many nations about to default on debts that top $100T and I think: they got big and dumb. Maybe small and free would work better.

[Vince Ferrer]

Six years ago this country spent $600 billion on infrastructure projects.

[okie01]

Six years ago this country spent $600 billion on infrastructure projects.

If you are referring to Porkulus, it was almost $900 billion. And most of it went to the blue states, to maintain employment of unionized public employees.

Very few infrastructure projects were actually undertaken.

[gunsequalfreedom]

Six years ago this country spent $600 billion on infrastructure projects.

Probably only 10% went to actual work on the infrastructure.

With the money the Feds put up to deal with foreclosures it went like this. Feds take 25% to administer the program. Then to the States that take 25% to administer the program. Then to the county that gets to take 10% to administer the program. By the time it got to the local level there were no funds to make any meaningful difference.

These are fund the government programs first.

[Gene Eric]

>> How long before white people are blamed?

Plenty of White socialists that make up the unions, political network, and voting block.

I’ll happily blame the “white people” which is not to excuse the “black people” that are largely socialists and equally responsible.

[ltc8k6]

The I-35 bridge collapse had nothing to do with “crumbling infrastructure”.

**********

On November 13, 2008, the NTSB released the findings of its investigation. The primary cause was the under-sized gusset plates, at 0.5 inches (13 mm) thick. Contributing to that design or construction error was the fact that 2 inches (51 mm) of concrete were added to the road surface over the years, increasing the dead load by 20%. Also contributing was the extraordinary weight of construction equipment and material resting on the bridge just above its weakest point at the time of the collapse. That load was estimated at 578,000 pounds (262,000 kg) consisting of sand, water, and vehicles. The NTSB determined that corrosion was not a significant factor, but that inspectors did not routinely check that safety features were functional.

[Chode]

when they replaced the water lines in Watkins ~20 years ago they found over half were still wooden water mains...

wouldn't surprise me if there are still some in NYC

[dfwgator]

You know where this is leading, right?

NYC Federal Bailout, Part Deux.

[PA Engineer]

ConEd does have one of the largest shares of cast iron pipe. This was installed during the times of manufactured gas.

There was a follow-up last week about the failure. One of the problems was something the companies tried years ago, but abandoned. That was the practice of slipping plastic lines into the cast iron. There were two problems with this approach. First, cast iron pipe is not smoot and internally this damages and cuts the pipe as it is inserted. The second problems deals with the difference of temperature related expansion and contraction properties with plastic and cast iron.

There were cases many years ago where the service sheared from the main because of the difference between plastic and cast iron. New York had a very cold winter and I would not be surprised this played a contributing role in the failure.

Finally, if there is a leak, it is very difficult to locate. The gas can travel quite a distance when the cast iron main is the carrier pipe for the plastic upgrade.

Old pipe by itself is not a problem if it is steel. There are numerous corrosion mitigation methods to prevent if not slow down corrosion related failures. Cast Iron and Wrought Iron are totally different. These mains do need to be replaced and the cost will be astronomical.

Some of the cost is also related to byproducts of manufactured gas that remain in the mains.

[Nailbiter]

not to steal the thread- but have there not been improvements in religning old pipe.
I believe somewhere I saw that old galvanzed water/sewer pipes were being religned with opoxy process.
I would think that would also work with gaspipe or black pipe.

[DocJhn]

Gas line piping is not constructed of cast iron pipe!
It is Steel pipe with cast iron fittings.
The prob is electrolysis comes in to play. After 56 years the piping will be compromised with corrosion due to this. I have seen holes the size of your thumb in some lines 30 years old.
Underground Gas lines now have a Teflon coating and fittings are wrapped in a special tape to prevent this or the line is constructed of a plastic that is immune to electrolysis.
These lines will have to be replaced to prevent future disasters of this nature. Utility companies love to collect the bill, but fail when it comes to upkeep and innovation.

[PA Engineer]

Can not be done with Cast Iron. Cast Iron over time suffers a process called grafitization. The iron corrodes away (especially at the bell and spigot connection) and leaves behind the graphite. It is really not apparent during excavation, but is startling when the pipe is sand blasted.

Graphite is very porous and may leak on it's own, however slowly. The problem is graphite absorbs a great deal of water. Graphite is brittle to begin with during freeze thaw heaving, but can also freeze and break.

Replacement is really the only solution.

[PA Engineer]

Gas line piping is not constructed of cast iron pipe!

There are many thousand miles of cast iron gas main. This is a leftover from the days of munufactured gas. Cast Iron mains were generally larger than normal distribution piping, because it was also part of the storage system when gas was manufactured.

It is Steel pipe with cast iron fittings.

The pipe is indeed cast iron and the joints may be lead or an abestos packing. The joint gasket was fine when wet gas was the poduct of manufactured gas. The joints did not dry out till the mains were switched over to dry gas. Many companies have been installing epoxy filled bags at the joints to address this problem.

Underground Gas lines now have a Teflon coating and fittings are wrapped in a special tape to prevent this or the line is constructed of a plastic that is immune to electrolysis.

Most piping now uses an extrusion coating and are Cathodically protected from corrosion. Plastic is fine, but many companies still rely on steel for the distribution mains. This is a safety issue. Service lines are now in many cases plastic.

[PA Engineer]

Here is a good link for reference from the DOT. It may take a few seconds to load for the different company Cast Iron Pipe inventory. It gives a very decent explanation of the problem.

Pipeline Replacement Updates

Many years ago I was on a couple of technical committees regarding this problem. A handful of other engineers and myself were the first ones to raise the alarm on what was considered best practices at the time.

[Nailbiter]

Thanks - I will read thru

[SoFloFreeper]

Looks like deBlasio’s city is crumbling...and he is chasing the people with money out of the city.

Nice move there, clown.

[rlmorel]

Thanks for posting. This is one of things I enjoy about FR...you obviously know what you are talking about here, and there are many issues where I get insight into issues that are provided by Freepers who are specialists in certain areas.

It is one of the reasons I stopped watching television generally over a year ago, and network news specifically. They always have some BS expert on who is only on there to buttress the viewpoint/agenda of the media.

Granted, it takes effort to separate the BS wheat from the chaff on the Internet, but one develops an ear for authenticity.

In any case, thanks for contributing.