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Crimea crisis: Putin adviser proposes division of Ukraine along Nazi-Soviet lines
The Independent UK | March 25, 2014

Posted on 03/25/2014 2:08:48 PM PDT by Jim Robinson

Full title:

Crimea crisis: Putin adviser proposes division of Ukraine along Nazi-Soviet lines and says it's 'never too late to correct historical errors'

(cant post from the independent.uk, click the link).


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; News/Current Events; Russia
KEYWORDS: crimea; crimeariver; molotovribbentrop; obama; putin; revanchism; russia; ukraine; viktoryanukovich; yuliatymoshenko

1 posted on 03/25/2014 2:08:48 PM PDT by Jim Robinson
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To: Jim Robinson

Historical errors?

Didn’t Russia take the eastern third of Poland at the end of WWII?

Are they panning on giving that back?


2 posted on 03/25/2014 2:09:50 PM PDT by BenLurkin (This is not a statement of fact. It is either opinion or satire; or both.)
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To: Jim Robinson

Invading and partitioning sovereign countries will bring peace in our time!

Or something


3 posted on 03/25/2014 2:13:00 PM PDT by GeronL (Vote for Conservatives not for Republicans!)
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To: GeronL
If the Russkis aren't careful, the Chinese might act on that same idea.

Sarah might be able in a few years to see China from her front porch. Who'll be laughing then?

4 posted on 03/25/2014 2:14:37 PM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: Jim Robinson
Advisor to Putin...not Putin.

Just a trial balloon!

Putin doesn't listen to advisors on his master plan, but he might listen to advisors on international PR.

5 posted on 03/25/2014 2:15:48 PM PDT by RoosterRedux (The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing -- Socrates)
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To: BenLurkin

“Didn’t Russia take the eastern third of Poland at the end of WWII?”

Much of what used to be called “Eastern Poland” now belongs to Lithuania and Belarus.


6 posted on 03/25/2014 2:16:12 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Well, it is what the Sheeple voted for....)
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To: RoosterRedux

Why would an adviser say anything contrary to Putin’s agenda?


7 posted on 03/25/2014 2:19:30 PM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: Jim Robinson

Let’s eschew the ‘Rat Cities and form a more perfect union.


8 posted on 03/25/2014 2:23:29 PM PDT by Paladin2
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To: Olog-hai
Right. He wouldn't.

Putin told an adviser to release a statement because he knew Obama was in Europe and he wanted to see if Obama would go all wobbly.

9 posted on 03/25/2014 2:24:19 PM PDT by RoosterRedux (The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing -- Socrates)
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To: Jim Robinson
I know Pooty-poots FSB brigade will be showing up shortly to tell us what a wonderful guy he is, so I'm going to post this so they can get their daily dose of The Shirtless Wonder®


10 posted on 03/25/2014 2:25:57 PM PDT by FredZarguna (Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!)
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To: tcrlaf

Don’t forget “Kaliningrad” - still in Russian hands.


11 posted on 03/25/2014 2:26:49 PM PDT by wideawake
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To: Jim Robinson

For those engaged in prophetic parsing of Ezekiel 38, events to the North of Israel are taking on some very interesting turns.

After the break-up of the old Soviet Union, we had to rethink everything, relegating this invasion to the ‘Stans’ - former Muslim Soviet Bloc countries such as Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan etc.

Now, we need to go back to 19th century thinking, which placed the ‘invader’ squarely on Russia.

Prophecy Geeks - Chime in...


12 posted on 03/25/2014 2:27:00 PM PDT by Paisan
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To: Jim Robinson; a fool in paradise

The fools FDR and Churchill, advised by the likes of Alger Hiss in Yalta, handed to Stalin big chunks of historical Poland, Romania and Hungary, which he then called the Ukrainian Republic. What is the proper Ukraine? I don’t know, but today’s Ukraine is the luckiest post-WWII land when it comes to its borders, Why, they’ve go a piece of Russia too!.


13 posted on 03/25/2014 2:27:50 PM PDT by Revolting cat! (Badwhereas things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious! We reserve the right to serve refuse to anyone!)
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To: RoosterRedux

Obama can’t get any wobblier without dressing in drag.


14 posted on 03/25/2014 2:33:45 PM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: FredZarguna

Putin will really not like that.

Not being put next to gay biker, gay army guy, gay indian, gay motorcycle cop, gay cowboy, and gay construction worker.


15 posted on 03/25/2014 2:36:25 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (Gone Galt; Not averse to Going Bronson.)
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To: tcrlaf

And Ukraine, including Lvov.


16 posted on 03/25/2014 2:39:00 PM PDT by LowTaxesEqualsProsperity
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To: BenLurkin

The article title is misleading. What is being proposed is undoing the Nazi-Soviet lines and returning parts of Ukraine to Hungary, Poland and Romania, the parts that were taken from them.

The article title suggests the proposal is to reinstate the Nazi-Soviet lines when, in fact, those lines are now more or less essentially the borders. The proposal would undo the Nazi-Soviet lines.


17 posted on 03/25/2014 2:42:09 PM PDT by LowTaxesEqualsProsperity
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To: BenLurkin

Just let Vlady declared himself Tsar of all Russia get over it LOL!


18 posted on 03/25/2014 2:48:07 PM PDT by SevenofNine (We are Freepers, all your media bases belong to us ,resistance is futile)
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To: Secret Agent Man
I'm sure The Shirtles Wonder® doesn't mind in the least the oogling of the closeted homosexuals at FR who adore his every pronouncement...
19 posted on 03/25/2014 2:50:15 PM PDT by FredZarguna (Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!)
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To: Jim Robinson

The borders of Ukraine, Poland, Lithuania, Russia, Germany, etc. have fluctuated back and forth with the fortunes of war for most of a thousand years.

It is just a little odd to proclaim, or assume, that the boundaries established by fiat in the 40s and 50s of the last century are henceforth always and eternally legitimate.

The question of what should constitute a legitimate boundary is a really good one. Perhaps it could be discussed.


20 posted on 03/25/2014 2:50:16 PM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Paisan

My thoughts too! The pieces seem to be on the board at least - whether this is the first move towards anything remains to be seen!


21 posted on 03/25/2014 3:13:00 PM PDT by melsec (Once a Jolly Swagman camped by a Billabong.)
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To: BenLurkin

I suppose in the long run Putin will take as much as he is given - unless the rest of Europe is prepared to move NATO’s people and assets towards the borders of these countries then they are gifting them to Putin! I don’t see why the USA would want to get involved atm other than to add verbal support for Europe but if the EU are not willing to stand up now they should not expect help on the ground later!


22 posted on 03/25/2014 3:18:01 PM PDT by melsec (Once a Jolly Swagman camped by a Billabong.)
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To: AdmSmith; AnonymousConservative; Berosus; bigheadfred; Bockscar; cardinal4; ColdOne; ...

Thanks JimRob.


23 posted on 03/25/2014 3:22:52 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: Sherman Logan

It would seem to me that letting those lines remain where they have been, would be the best resolution to the problem. Every time you redraw those lines, a new generation of people who don’t approve arise and become enemies.

The Ukraine’s borders have been accepted. Folks in the Eastern Ukraine were not openly demanding a return to Russia. For that matter the Crimeans weren’t either.

This is all about Vlad IMO.

I would suggest the people in the region have given thought to the borders. It would seem they were living in relative peace. What is really to be gained by stirring this hornet’s nest now? Once again the lines will move, and in a generation a new set of demands will be heard.

The idol in Danial whose feet were made of iron and clay, sure was accurate. Europe never seems to solidify.


24 posted on 03/25/2014 3:24:19 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (Immigration Reform is job NONE. It isn't even the leading issue with Hipanics. Enforce our laws.)
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To: BenLurkin

Stalin pushed Poland west, ethnically cleansed the formerly German territories, and pushed the USSR’s border west, driving all before it.


25 posted on 03/25/2014 3:24:26 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: BenLurkin
Are they panning on giving that back?

Then the Germans will want Danzig, Breslau and East Prussia back.

26 posted on 03/25/2014 3:27:09 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: DoughtyOne

I don’t disagree. I have no dog in the fight.

Just object to characterization of the borders in the area as being the equivalent of those in Western Europe and North America, where there are solid demographic, geographical and/or historical reasons why they are where they are. Eastern Europe, no such logical reasons apply.


27 posted on 03/25/2014 3:56:42 PM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan

I realize there are problems. The point is, Russia broke the law with it’s actions. There was no festering hot-bed of separatist demands in Crimea.

Russia wanted it because of it’s location on the Black Sea. It’s the same reason it wants southern Ukraine.

This is open aggression, nothing more.

Do you realize Mexico could waltz into the U. S., call special elections along the borders, then claim the vote showed the people in the U. S. wanted to be a part of Mexico? That’s what Russia did.

We should be very careful to buy into that sort of thing. It could easily be used against our nation too.


28 posted on 03/25/2014 4:03:44 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (Immigration Reform is job NONE. It isn't even the leading issue with Hipanics. Enforce our laws.)
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To: Jim Robinson
So, Lwow (Lemberg) to Poland? Good idea. VERY good idea.

Has Pooty-poot told Belarus about Grodno and Brest going back to Poland? Has he told Lithuania about Wilno?

And, most importantly, has he told Merkel about Breslau? And Königsberg?

Everybody's watching Putin. Who's watching Merkel?

29 posted on 03/25/2014 4:23:41 PM PDT by Jim Noble (When strong, avoid them. Attack their weaknesses. Emerge to their surprise. H)
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To: dfwgator

Have any of von Ribbentrop’s descendants received a “duty calls” phone call yet?


30 posted on 03/25/2014 4:27:28 PM PDT by TADSLOS (The Event Horizon has come and gone. Buckle up and hang on.)
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To: DoughtyOne
The point is, Russia broke the law with it’s actions

OK, Russia broke the "law".

Law needs a lawgiver. Giving the law is an attribute of sovereignty.

Conservatives, of which you are a prominent one, need to be VERY careful with the idea that there are supra-national or transnational lawgivers. Once we accept that premise, the chances that it will be used against us are great.

31 posted on 03/25/2014 4:28:43 PM PDT by Jim Noble (When strong, avoid them. Attack their weaknesses. Emerge to their surprise. H)
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To: Jim Noble

In the end, Might Makes Right....Always has, always will.

You want to stop Hitler? You have to be mightier than he is.


32 posted on 03/25/2014 4:33:29 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: dfwgator

The strong dictate, and the weak obey.

There is nothing new under the sun.


33 posted on 03/25/2014 5:04:24 PM PDT by Jim Noble (When strong, avoid them. Attack their weaknesses. Emerge to their surprise. H)
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To: DoughtyOne

Now imagine they did. Now imagine Arizona, New Mexico and California all pulled their National Guard and Law Enforcement out of the area “due to the threat of violence to them and their families” then all the Military Bases just opened the doors and let the Mexican Army have them. This is exactly what the Ukraine did!

The Ukraine doesn’t deserve our support. If you won’t defend yourself then you don’t deserve NATO members to sacrifice for you either.

At least Putin has the balls to do what is right for Russians. Obama’s version of international chess is an apology tour and bowing to foreign kings.


34 posted on 03/25/2014 5:33:26 PM PDT by RC51
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To: Jim Noble

Look Jim, I agree on point, but there are established norms when it comes to international give and take. What Russia did here doesn’t fit into any civilized version of those norms.

What I wind up thinking after your comments, is that we can get mired down into the semantics of things and lose site of the evil that took place.

We can’t paralyze ourselves trying to do triple back flips in order to make sure we don’t enmesh ourselves in penalties for something we wouldn’t do.

It has been approaching 200 years since the United States took military action to add to it’s territory, and even then we paid for it as well.

On top of that, there was a real question if the entity we were dealing with, had any claim at all to the territory in question.

Spain grabbed that territory just like it grabbed Mexico. Mexico wasn’t a clear heir apparent to the large Spanish holdings in North America. It hadn’t owned them before Spain came along.

We do take military action in nations around the world, but it’s generally after getting international approval. And then we try to set those nations up with stable governments that can then chose to develop the allies they wish, sometimes to our own detriment.


35 posted on 03/25/2014 7:20:52 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (Immigration Reform is job NONE. It isn't even the leading issue with Hipanics. Enforce our laws.)
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To: RC51

Why do you think the Ukrainians held their fire?

Have you seen war zones. Would you want that fate for your home city? Think about the tens of thousands of refugees, their lost property, and the upheaval in their lives.

It’s one thing to be brave and take military action. It’s another to have to accept the inevitable losses, and realize that it resulted from you taking action at all.

Are the Crimeans better off today because the Ukrainians held their fire? Frankly, it’s hard to state otherwise.


36 posted on 03/25/2014 7:33:35 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (Immigration Reform is job NONE. It isn't even the leading issue with Hipanics. Enforce our laws.)
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To: SevenofNine
Just let Vlady declared himself Tsar of all Russia get over it LOL!

There is a problem with that: he has no sons.

37 posted on 03/25/2014 10:22:43 PM PDT by Freelance Warrior (A Russian.)
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To: Freelance Warrior

Well he could change it that rule about only son is very new Tsar Paul who hate his Mom Catherine the Great change the rule

Going to be Tsar LOL!


38 posted on 03/26/2014 8:31:47 AM PDT by SevenofNine (We are Freepers, all your media bases belong to us ,resistance is futile)
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To: dfwgator

Yeah who play the role of Kaisher Wilhem eh Drwgator LOL!

Obama???

NO Obama is too much a wuss least Kaisher was manly than our US President LOL!


39 posted on 03/26/2014 8:32:39 AM PDT by SevenofNine (We are Freepers, all your media bases belong to us ,resistance is futile)
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