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Ex-generals: Bring back conscription (Germany)
TheLocal.de ^ | 25 Mar 2014 10:29 GMT+01:00

Posted on 03/26/2014 9:05:55 AM PDT by Olog-hai

Mounting tension in the Crimea is prompting calls for compulsory military service to be reintroduced in Germany.

A number of German ex-generals have raised fears over the nation’s military strength should it be drawn into a NATO-led conflict.

“We need compulsory military service. There is no other way for Germany to guarantee national defense within the [NATO] mutual defense alliance,” retired NATO general Egon Ramms told Bild newspaper. “[It certainly can’t be done] on a voluntary basis.”

Ramms was commander of the Allied Joint Forces Command between 2007 and 2010, one of the highest-ranking positions in the NATO alliance. …

(Excerpt) Read more at thelocal.de ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Germany; News/Current Events; Russia
KEYWORDS: conscription; crimea; draft; europeanunion; eussr; germany; nato; putin; ukraine

1 posted on 03/26/2014 9:05:55 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai

I have mixed feelings about this.


2 posted on 03/26/2014 9:07:08 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: Olog-hai
Germany and Russia will do a deal, and they will do it soon.

The alternative is unthinkable.

3 posted on 03/26/2014 9:08:45 AM PDT by Jim Noble (When strong, avoid them. Attack their weaknesses. Emerge to their surprise. H)
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To: Jim Noble

Will it be called Molotov-Ribbentrop?


4 posted on 03/26/2014 9:09:34 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai

I remember the German draftees at Graf in 1969. I think they had a 1 year term of service. The one thing I remember was that they still wore the traditional “knoebelbecher” boots.


5 posted on 03/26/2014 9:11:14 AM PDT by RitchieAprile
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To: Olog-hai; All
"We need compulsory military service. There is no other way for Germany to guarantee national defense..." Huuhhh, what could go wrong?!?
6 posted on 03/26/2014 9:12:47 AM PDT by areukiddingme1 (areukiddingme1 is a synonym for a Retired U.S. Navy Chief Petty Officer and tired of liberal BS.))
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To: Olog-hai

Years ago when I was in Europe for some military meetings, I had a German officer joke to me that they had to do a TDY to France every few decades.


7 posted on 03/26/2014 9:13:02 AM PDT by Da Coyote
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To: areukiddingme1

“Don’t mention the war.”


8 posted on 03/26/2014 9:13:37 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: dfwgator

“Don’t mention the war.”

Hahaha, yeah...

Q: “Hey, I notice in the German travel brochure that there is no mention of the war between 1939 and 1945, what is the deal.”

German tour guide: “We were all on vacation.”

Q: “No I’m pretty sure Germany invaded Poland”

German tour guide: “No, we were all on vacation, punch was served.”


9 posted on 03/26/2014 9:17:07 AM PDT by areukiddingme1 (areukiddingme1 is a synonym for a Retired U.S. Navy Chief Petty Officer and tired of liberal BS.))
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To: Olog-hai
One of Putin's advisers has already said "it's never too late to undo a mistake", meaning, Lwow back to Poland. He did not mention (yet) Grodno, Brest, and Wilno, but "Belarus" will do what they are told and Lithuania may be a target.

If separating Western Ukraine (Galicia) makes the rest more digestible, it's very smart troublemaking.

And if undoing Stalin's territorial mistakes is suddenly on the table, then, boy, do Putin and Merkel have a lot to talk about.

10 posted on 03/26/2014 9:18:15 AM PDT by Jim Noble (When strong, avoid them. Attack their weaknesses. Emerge to their surprise. H)
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To: Jim Noble

Putin’s not the talking type, as we can see.


11 posted on 03/26/2014 9:19:19 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: Jim Noble

“And if undoing Stalin’s territorial mistakes is suddenly on the table, then, boy, do Putin and Merkel have a lot to talk about.
__________________________

Kaliningrad comes to mind for some inexplicable reason....


12 posted on 03/26/2014 9:20:56 AM PDT by AnAmericanAbroad (It's all bread and circuses for the future prey of the Morlocks.)
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To: Jim Noble
And if undoing Stalin's territorial mistakes is suddenly on the table, then, boy, do Putin and Merkel have a lot to talk about.

Party like it's 1795, will Austria and Hungary reunite? And how 'bout that reunion tour of Suleiman and the Ottomans?

13 posted on 03/26/2014 9:21:34 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: dfwgator

The latter seems to be underway in Iran, Turkey et al.


14 posted on 03/26/2014 9:25:54 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: dfwgator

BTW, Austria and Hungary have been reunited for ten years under the European Union aegis.


15 posted on 03/26/2014 9:27:09 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai
The German military IS soft, a total nonentity now.
Their military reflects their people.

The Germans like their food, their STUFF, food, peace, food, travel and freedom to travel, food, great cars/roads, food, beer, food.

Did I mention FOOD?

16 posted on 03/26/2014 9:28:16 AM PDT by cloudmountain
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To: Jim Noble

How about Kaliningrad back to Germany?


17 posted on 03/26/2014 9:36:52 AM PDT by glorgau
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To: areukiddingme1
"Don’t mention the war.” Hahaha, yeah... Q: “Hey, I notice in the German travel brochure that there is no mention of the war between 1939 and 1945, what is the deal.” German tour guide: “We were all on vacation.” Q: “No I’m pretty sure Germany invaded Poland” German tour guide: “No, we were all on vacation, punch was served.”

I visited Austria a while back. BEAUTIFUL country, VERY different from Germany!
The Austrian tour guide (woman) laughingly said: "Haha, we keep trying to convince the world that Hitler was German and Beethoven was Austrian. Hahaha (or Jajaja)."

Hitler learned his virulent anti-Semitism in his first 20 (or so) years in Austria and thus arrived in Germany already inculcated with anti-Semitism.
And no, the Austrians and Germans are NOT the same.

18 posted on 03/26/2014 9:38:51 AM PDT by cloudmountain
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To: dfwgator
I have mixed feelings about this.

I doubt if many people *don't* have mixed feelings about that. However, if the Germans followed the example of the Swiss, it might be a less volatile situation than outright conscription for a year or more.

19 posted on 03/26/2014 9:39:46 AM PDT by Charles Martel (Endeavor to persevere...)
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To: cloudmountain

Not to mention older people in eastern half of Germany are still thinking in Russian and consider Karl Marx the single greatest German. Not to mention that their grandchildren are way more leftist than their commie grandparents and taunt their commie old with a faul word ‘conservatives’.


20 posted on 03/26/2014 9:44:28 AM PDT by wetphoenix
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To: Olog-hai

All Quiet On the Eastern Front


21 posted on 03/26/2014 9:48:36 AM PDT by Varsity Flight (Extortion-Care is the Government Work-Camp: Arbeitsziehungslager)
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To: glorgau
Königsberg is now Kaliningrad.

It was much better under the Germans. It is a beautiful spot, though, and one can see why it was the "king's mountain"--konig, with the umlat over the "o." It relies mostly on tourism, the guide said.

From Google: Destroyed in World War II and annexed to the USSR in 1946, the region was stripped of its German identity and was named after Mikhail Kalinin, a Russian communist leader. A highly militarized zone during the Soviet era, the area only opened to visitors about 20 years ago.

How delightful, named after a Russian communist. I THINK I prefer the original name.

22 posted on 03/26/2014 9:48:48 AM PDT by cloudmountain
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To: cloudmountain
Königsberg is now Kaliningrad.

You mean Królewiec , is now Kaliningrad.

23 posted on 03/26/2014 9:50:04 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: Olog-hai

Richtig.


24 posted on 03/26/2014 9:50:56 AM PDT by truth_seeker
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To: Jim Noble

Is Putin prepared to return the East Prussia to Germany and Kuril Islands to Japan by way of correcting old mistakes. And China still identifies on her maps the Russian Far East and West Seberia as Chinese (throw in Kazakhstan and Exterior Mongolia for good measure).


25 posted on 03/26/2014 9:54:29 AM PDT by Mi-kha-el ((There is no Pravda in Izvestiya and no Izvestiya in Pravda.))
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To: wetphoenix
Not to mention older people in eastern half of Germany are still thinking in Russian and consider Karl Marx the single greatest German. Not to mention that their grandchildren are way more leftist than their commie grandparents and taunt their commie old with a faul word ‘conservatives’.

The hope for Germany lies with its youth, as it does for most countries.
The oldies ARE finally dying out. When they are gone, their TOTAL welfare-ism will die with them. It was a "nanny state," really antithetical to Germans. They have always been "worker bees."

There still is the sense of government being the nipple off which folks suckle, which DOES have to do with the AMAZINGLY high taxes they pay. But, for those young Germans (and most youngsters) the world has expanded beyond reason--thanks to many factors. Those young Germans see it, talk to it via the Internet and fully participate in all that this "new" world has to offer.

My fear is the draining of U.S. coffers paying for TOO MANY Americans sucking off the gumin-nipple...and INSISTING on their RIGHT to do so, without ANY responsibility whatsoever connected to it.

26 posted on 03/26/2014 9:57:29 AM PDT by cloudmountain
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To: dfwgator

One need not worry about the middle east. They have SO much money from the petroleum and natural gas resources that all they do now is lie back, eat, drink and belch. [And those are the women :o)]


27 posted on 03/26/2014 9:59:47 AM PDT by cloudmountain
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To: Olog-hai

I have been saying for years that the United States needs to do the same thing. I understand there is some downsizing in the military due to technologic and computerized advances.
However, there is still a need to have a ready force, able to execute multiple battles around the globe at once. This is the ideal. Since we may be ending or misadventure in Afghanistan soon, we can use that freed up funding to train more of our young people. Another reason is, let’s face it, we need to provide gainful employment to the same category of people. The country and culture would benefit from having more Americans go through the discipline of the military, even in it’s diluted form of today, with different rules for different sexes. I dont’ expect any of this to occur until the next President, unless Putin becomes a clear and present danger directly to us. If Putin starts ‘vacationing’ in Cuba, or forms some sort of property use deal with Haiti, we may begin develop a brand new attitude of urgency in the states.


28 posted on 03/26/2014 9:59:55 AM PDT by lee martell
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To: dfwgator
You mean Królewiec , is now Kaliningrad.

Hey, what do I know? I read what I wrote from GOOGLE.

It's SUCH a prime piece of real estate that it is NOT surprising to read about the battles for it.

29 posted on 03/26/2014 10:01:55 AM PDT by cloudmountain
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To: dfwgator

Partitions of Poland-Lithuania is a Tsars Favorite Pass Time.


30 posted on 03/26/2014 10:26:50 AM PDT by KC_Lion (Build the America you want to live in at your address, and keep looking up.- Sarah Palin)
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To: cloudmountain
Those young Germans see it, talk to it via the Internet and fully participate in all that this "new" world has to offer

Morgen die ganze Welt.

31 posted on 03/26/2014 10:42:08 AM PDT by Jim Noble (When strong, avoid them. Attack their weaknesses. Emerge to their surprise. H)
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To: Olog-hai

every male on turning 18, should be in the military for at least 2 years....then their testosterone levels would rise to normal levels...no internet porn, no computers in the barracks....


32 posted on 03/26/2014 10:50:21 AM PDT by B212
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To: cloudmountain

Not true, it was Germany who invented the modern welfare state. Bismark introduced welfare and public healthcare in the 1870s in order to appease the socialists who were becoming an increasing threat the old Prussian autocratic order of things.


33 posted on 03/26/2014 11:06:18 AM PDT by sinsofsolarempirefan
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To: Da Coyote

What does TDY stand for?


34 posted on 03/26/2014 1:07:42 PM PDT by Amberdawn
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To: dfwgator

They only ended the mandatory nine-month military service a couple of years ago.


35 posted on 03/26/2014 1:12:04 PM PDT by Bubba Ho-Tep ("More weight!"--Giles Corey)
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To: sinsofsolarempirefan

You are correct. I also doubt the idea that the dying off of the “old” people will transform German youth (what there is of them) into free enterprisers.


36 posted on 03/26/2014 1:12:19 PM PDT by Amberdawn
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To: Amberdawn

Temporary DutY. it’s an assignment away from your parent unit. can be for anything, one of my soldiers in germany (1975) was away for 6 months as a ski instructor


37 posted on 03/26/2014 3:25:00 PM PDT by bravo whiskey (We should not fear our government. Our government should fear us.)
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To: sinsofsolarempirefan
I didn't say that Germany didn't invent modern warfare. Please stop putting words in my mouth.
I was talking in VERY general terms about the Germans and I got MY information from the Germans. But, then, what do THEY know about their own military? YOU are the "expert" on German warfare, obviously. NO ONE else on the planet knows as much as YOU do about German warfare...not even the Germans. I've been to Germany two DOZEN times, learned "ein wenig Deutsch" and don't need a lecture on them.

My father was in North Africa during WWII (Rommel--the Desert Fox)--then Anzio. He never lectured anyone, ever, about the Germans. He RARELY mentioned it. It was something HE wanted to forget. Why would he not want to forget it?
My mother went through it as the wife here at home. She didn't want to discuss it either. Why would she?
In others words, SAVE your lecture for someone who cares about your opinion of WWII. I don't. Ich danke Ihnen sehr.

38 posted on 03/26/2014 6:19:10 PM PDT by cloudmountain
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To: Jim Noble

Battle of Kursk.


39 posted on 03/26/2014 6:27:54 PM PDT by cloudmountain
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To: Olog-hai
A difficult issue. On the one hand there is a clear need for an EU military worthy of the name. The U.S. fulfilled that function for as long as we could afford it, actually quite a bit after, since we borrowed money for it. Even if we wanted to do that it is now beyond our means. Balanced against that is the deliberate formal rejection of militarism on the part of German popular culture, for which the victors of WWII are at least in part responsible, with the resulting lack of enthusiasm on the part of the Germans to join what still (and with justification) is considered tainted, dishonorable. That sentiment is prevalent in Japan, too.

It is not clear that conscription will address that issue, but conscription in the face of a foreign existential threat has always been a means of addressing it. And Putin is conveniently providing that foreign threat - whether it is a serious threat is irrelevant.

A third consideration is that military mobilization has a sad history of mushrooming out of control in Europe. We are at the centenary of such a disaster, where the nationalistic drives of a subject people threatened an ancient, creaking, multinational empire in the Austro-Hungarian, which took actions in terms of mobilization whose reflections in Russia, Germany, France, the Ottoman Empire, and eventually Great Britain, put the entire continent on a war footing. It would not be a good thing to repeat that bit of tragic history.

Nevertheless, aggression never met is aggression never ending. Conscription may lead to war or it may prevent it. It isn't the act itself, but how it is handled. And the European track record in that regard is not encouraging.

40 posted on 03/26/2014 6:46:07 PM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: Billthedrill

There’s a clear need for a European Union military? I think perhaps that’s the last thing that needs to appear. The EU elites are very ambitious, remember; they see the EU as a “third power” and they’ve already proven themselves to have imperialistic aims; even worse, the EU’s “supranational” government has a very authoritarian structure.

Think back to the Cold War days, with certain politicians from West Germany fomenting undue rapprochement with the USSR. There have been some forces behind the scenes who have sapped the will and strength of the USA by design. There are many ways to fight battles besides on the open field, after all; and we have more than one enemy that has embraced the principle Sun Tzu spoke of in the Art of War with regards to “breaking your enemy’s resistance without fighting”. George Washington, I dare say, would be appalled, since he exhorted the USA to be “always ready for war”.


41 posted on 03/26/2014 7:34:55 PM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: bravo whiskey

Thank you.


42 posted on 03/26/2014 8:01:31 PM PDT by Amberdawn
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To: Olog-hai
I can't disagree all that much, but it does occur to me that the alternative is a collection of armies of individual European states that has proved historically worse. Are German interests more reliably to be protected by a collective EU army or by one of Germany herself? If the former, do we risk an EU with imperialistic ambitions? And if the latter, do we risk returning to the days of German imperialistic ambitions?

I haven't an answer, only questions. There are, clearly, Russian imperialistic ambitions at work in the present, whether as a result of some recrudescence of Soviet pretension or simply because power flows to a vacuum. I find it very difficult to identify American responsibility to oppose it, frankly, especially after a half-century of impoverishing ourselves to do so. I don't think that's isolationism so much as a sober assessment of the limits of American power.

It looks to me, at least a bit, like the Great Powers alignments before the thing devolved into bipolarity between the U.S. and the Soviet Union. Many on the European side find a deserved dignity in this but are at the moment unable or unwilling to shoulder the concomitant costs. That's what I'm referring to by a need for an EU military. Or something, anything, only it cannot be us because that phase of history is over.

And so do we cut them loose and watch freedom die if it cannot be maintained by the Europeans themselves? I think we do, I do not think we have much of a choice despite the ridiculous posturing on the part of our current administration.

We will certainly be underestimating the determination of the Poles, for example, if we take too dark a view of the possible results of disengagement. But the spark of freedom has been extinguished before in European history, frequently. We didn't, after all, teach them that the choice is between arming and kneeling, they taught us that.

43 posted on 03/26/2014 8:10:14 PM PDT by Billthedrill
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