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The Ukraine
2banan | 3/38/2014 | 2banana

Posted on 03/28/2014 6:28:17 AM PDT by 2banana

The Ukraine as seen by 2banana.

The Ukraine had a free and fairly elected government (Yanukovych). It was a corrupt government that wanted closer ties to Russia. But we all don't get the governments we want. That is why there are elections. And elections have consequences.

But in the Ukraine - There were massive demonstrations in the capitol and a new unelected government was installed. They did not win any elections and went about changing Ukraine's foreign policy in a major way.

All this was supported by obama as legitimate because the people supported it.

Crimea didn't like all this and actually had an election and decided to change governments and align with Russia.

obama didn't like this and called it illegitimate.

Complicating matters is that the USA has a signed treaty with the Ukraine to defend its borders (in exchange for the Ukraine for giving up its nukes).

The USA also supported Kosovo to break away from Serbia with no authorization, vote or mandate. Because the people "supported" it.

It is no wonder the world does not trust America.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Government; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: obama; ukraine
Comments?
1 posted on 03/28/2014 6:28:17 AM PDT by 2banana
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To: 2banana

no The.


2 posted on 03/28/2014 6:30:48 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy
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To: 2banana; dfwgator; Gamecock; Larry Lucido; F15Eagle
The Ukraine is a sitting Duck.

A Road Apple.

The Ukraine is Weak.

It's Feeble.

I think it's about time to put the hurt on The Ukraine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzLtF_PxbYw


3 posted on 03/28/2014 6:30:58 AM PDT by KC_Lion (Build the America you want to live in at your address, and keep looking up.- Sarah Palin)
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To: 2banana
Change "the people" to "the right people" and you've got it.
4 posted on 03/28/2014 6:32:05 AM PDT by SeeSharp
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To: 2banana

Ukraine......IKraine....We All Kraine....


5 posted on 03/28/2014 6:32:17 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: 2banana

How about some footnotes?


6 posted on 03/28/2014 6:40:34 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (There can be no Victory without a fight and no battle without wounds)
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To: 2banana

A good concise summary.

The thing of most interest to me is this: “All this was supported by obama as legitimate because the people supported it.”

Try that here, and see what happens. (I speak rhetorically of course) Nevertheless, the fedgov is now on board that enough molotovs and dead cops serves as legitimate regime change.

For future reference. In other polities.


7 posted on 03/28/2014 6:42:05 AM PDT by Psalm 144 (FIGHT! FIGHT! SEVERE CONSERVATIVE AND THE WILD RIGHT!)
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To: 2banana
"the USA has a signed treaty with the Ukraine to defend its borders (in exchange for the Ukraine for giving up its nukes)."

The "Budapest Memorandum" was NOT a treaty. It was a multinational agreement, and the Ukrainians were STUPID for doing it! You can be sure they would like to have a few of those warheads back right about now.

8 posted on 03/28/2014 6:45:10 AM PDT by KoRn (Department of Homeland Security, Certified - "Right Wing Extremist")
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To: SeeSharp
"Change "the people" to "the right people" and you've got it.'

Russia's actions in the Crimea are illegal under any pretext, but I wonder who "the people" were who participated in the Ukrainian demonstrations. True patriots of liberty, non affiliated anarchists, or JBT's from Russia? The events that precipitated the Crimean takeover seemed to be too well orchestrated.

9 posted on 03/28/2014 6:46:57 AM PDT by buckalfa (Tilting at Windmills)
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To: 2banana

http://www.spectrezine.org/yushchenkos-place-history-leader-who-failed-his-people


10 posted on 03/28/2014 6:47:39 AM PDT by Sacajaweau
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To: KoRn

Bill Clinton signed it, ‘nuff said.

From the same people that brought you “The Dayton Accords.” How did that work out for Yugoslavia?


11 posted on 03/28/2014 6:48:02 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: dfwgator

I kraine
Thou krainst
He, she, it kraines

We kraine
U kraine
They kraine


12 posted on 03/28/2014 6:52:41 AM PDT by Jim Noble (When strong, avoid them. Attack their weaknesses. Emerge to their surprise. H)
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To: ClearCase_guy

Exactly!! Is is Ukraine, not the Ukraine. I have friends from there and it pisses them off when their country is referred to in that manner. It is like saying, the France, the Mexico, the Spain.


13 posted on 03/28/2014 6:54:29 AM PDT by shankbear (The tree of Liberty appears to be perishing because there are few patriots willing to refresh it.)
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To: buckalfa

The notion the the pro-Russian government of Ukraine would have snipers shooting at the anti-Russian opposition protestors during the Olympics doesn’t make any sense.

The Sochi Olympics were meant to be a showcase for Vladimir Putin’s Russia with prisoners released ahead of it and so on.

Any crackdown on those protestors would have come after the Olympics, not during.

The whole sequence of events from the snipers on smells fishy.

The rapid overthrow of the presidency in violation of an agreement between the protestors and the pro-Russian government to allow him to stay in office for the rest of this year upset the apple cart completely.

That made Russian intervention inevitable.


14 posted on 03/28/2014 6:56:06 AM PDT by Nextrush (AFFORDABLE CARE ACT=HEALTH CARE INDUSTRY BAILOUT ACT)
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To: 2banana

The only silver lining that I can see is that Crimea was largely pro-Russian, and what is left of Ukraine is decidedly pro-west. A new political dynamic providing Ukrainian democracy somehow survives.

Maybe we could cede California and New York to Putin?


15 posted on 03/28/2014 7:02:09 AM PDT by wayoverontheright
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To: shankbear
Exactly!! Is is Ukraine, not the Ukraine. I have friends from there and it pisses them off when their country is referred to in that manner. It is like saying, the France, the Mexico, the Spain.

Like THE United States of America?

16 posted on 03/28/2014 7:02:57 AM PDT by 2banana (My common ground with terrorists - they want to die for islam and we want to kill them)
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To: 2banana

If it were the United States of Ukraine I would agree with you. It isn’t. It is Ukraine.


17 posted on 03/28/2014 7:15:37 AM PDT by shankbear (The tree of Liberty appears to be perishing because there are few patriots willing to refresh it.)
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To: shankbear
Actually it might be more historically correct to say
the country "Ukraine" = 
      "Galicia" 
      + "The Ukraine" (East Bank and West Bank) 
      + "Novorossiya" 
      + "Crimea" 
      + "Bukovina" 
      + "Carpathian Oblast"

There really was an area with fluid boundaries which was a borderland (okraina/ukraina) for centuries (especially 1380 to 1654 and later) between the Lithuanian, Lithuanian/Polish, Polish, Swedish, Ottoman, Austro-Hungarian, and Russian Empires. That would be "The Ukraine" in English as a region, but that is just a part of the present-day country Ukraine.

That is,Ukraine is so much more than just "The Ukraine", which is still a valid historical term.

18 posted on 03/28/2014 7:18:41 AM PDT by wildandcrazyrussian
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To: 2banana

Small point. It is not “The Ukraine” it is “Ukraine” as in “The Germany” vs. “Germany.”

I know, it’s irrelevant, but annoying.


19 posted on 03/28/2014 7:27:25 AM PDT by LachlanMinnesota
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To: 2banana
It was the EU not Russia which provoked Ukraine crisis

Geroge Soros giant globalist foot print in Ukraine turmoil

20 posted on 03/28/2014 7:32:12 AM PDT by opentalk
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VIDEO

International Business Conference at Ukraine in Washington - National Press Club - December 13, 2013

Victoria Nuland - Assistant Secretary of State for Europe and Eurasian Affairs December 2013, : US Has Invested $5 Billion In The Development of Ukrainian, "Democratic Institutions"

21 posted on 03/28/2014 7:42:24 AM PDT by opentalk
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To: 2banana
Yanukovych was impeached by about 75% of the Rada. Before Yanuk could be removed, he fled the country.

Why didn't you mention that?

I'll look for your answer.

22 posted on 03/28/2014 8:16:29 AM PDT by FreeReign
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To: FreeReign
Yanukovych was impeached by about 75% of the Rada. Before Yanuk could be removed, he fled the country.

Why didn't you mention that?

Are the people in power in Ukraine freely elected and legitimate or not?

Did they follow the rule of law for removing a leader (Yanukovych) and replacing him or not?

You can't have it both ways...

23 posted on 03/28/2014 8:29:41 AM PDT by 2banana (My common ground with terrorists - they want to die for islam and we want to kill them)
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To: 2banana
There's your pro-Russian crowd in Donetsk, Ukraine, underneath the statue of their hero Lenin, waving communist flags of their Communist heroes. Be careful who you cheer for.

http://thepeoplescube.com/images/various_uploads/skeet/Donetsk_Russia_Ukraine_13.jpg

24 posted on 03/28/2014 8:58:56 AM PDT by FBD
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To: 2banana
Are the people in power in Ukraine freely elected and legitimate or not? Did they follow the rule of law for removing a leader (Yanukovych) and replacing him or not?

Again...The freely elected reps in the Rada impeached Yanukovich. Yanuk fled before he could be removed. The Rada then voted on an interim replacement and they voted to hold freely held elections in May.

Those are the facts, none of which were in your summary.

Why?

25 posted on 03/28/2014 9:00:02 AM PDT by FreeReign
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To: FreeReign

Those are the facts, none of which were in your summary.

Why?
________________
Good question. I too would like an answer.


26 posted on 03/28/2014 9:06:04 AM PDT by Agog
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To: FBD
Be careful who you cheer for.

I am not cheering for any side. I am just pointing out when you support and foster one illegitimate government don't be surprised if others copy you...

27 posted on 03/28/2014 10:20:00 AM PDT by 2banana (My common ground with terrorists - they want to die for islam and we want to kill them)
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To: FreeReign; Agog
Again...The freely elected reps in the Rada impeached Yanukovich. Yanuk fled before he could be removed. The Rada then voted on an interim replacement and they voted to hold freely held elections in May.

Yes, of course - and the months of violent rioting, thousands of Molotov cocktails, torching of government buildings and killing of policemen were just yuts celebrating a Superbowl win.

The Ukrainian Parliament (after impeaching Yanukovich) just CHANGED the Ukrainian Constitution, installed their own interim president and took over all powers of the administration. Maybe there might be a vote in a few months...

None of this they had the legitimate power to do.

If this happened in America - we would be calling it what? Imagine if the republicans in congress did just this to obama. Yeah, you might be happy with the outcome (this time) but it would not be a constitutional or legitimate government

When America fosters and supports this kind of nonsense - don't be surprised if others copy it and throw it back in our faces.

28 posted on 03/28/2014 10:33:24 AM PDT by 2banana (My common ground with terrorists - they want to die for islam and we want to kill them)
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To: 2banana
The Ukrainian Parliament (after impeaching Yanukovich) just CHANGED the Ukrainian Constitution, installed their own interim president and took over all powers of the administration. Maybe there might be a vote in a few months... None of this they had the legitimate power to do.

The Parliament voted to change the Constitution. 386 reps.(deputies) out of 450 voted for it. That is within their power. Yanukovich, who abandoned the country and who was impeached for doing so (amongst other things) was not there to sign off on it.

So the parliament then voted and appointed an interim president and to set elections for May 2014.

29 posted on 03/28/2014 11:05:07 AM PDT by FreeReign
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To: 2banana
Yes, of course - and the months of violent rioting, thousands of Molotov cocktails, torching of government buildings and killing of policemen were just yuts celebrating a Superbowl win.

You mischaracterize and simplify the events.

Timeline

30 posted on 03/28/2014 11:13:23 AM PDT by FreeReign
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