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Kerry & Lavrov Negotiate Ukraine’s Surrender in Paris: Were All the Rooms in Munich Booked?
The Streetwise Professor ^ | March 30, 2014 | The Professor

Posted on 03/30/2014 6:48:10 PM PDT by No One Special

Following up on Putin’s phone call to Obama, Kerry is making a detour to Paris to negotiate with Lavrov over the fate of Ukraine.

Lavrov has laid out Russia’s terms, and intimates that Obama and Kerry have accepted the principles underlying these terms.

First, Russia demands that Ukraine adopt a new constitution that establishes a federal structure that gives each region considerable autonomy. Translate this to mean that these regions would be able to pull a Crimea. Or, more accurately, that Russia would be able to pull a Crimea, slicing off pieces of Ukraine and splicing them onto Russia.

Crucially, Lavrov said: “I can say that ‘federation’ is no longer a taboo word in our negotiations.” Meaning that if he is telling the truth (always a big if) Obama has conceded that Ukraine’s constitutional order is up for negotiation, on Moscow’s terms.

Second, Russia demands that Ukraine’s new constitution incorporate guarantees that Ukraine will not join Nato or any other alliance.

In brief: the Secretary of State of the United States is traveling to Paris to negotiate the constitution of a sovereign country, without the presence of that country. The end state of this negotiation would be to turn Ukraine into a Russian satrapy, to be gobbled up piecemeal, and with no ability to conduct an independent foreign policy.

Lavrov’s teaser is that Russia has no intention of invading Ukraine. But if you read his words closely, you will understand that he means Russia has no intention of invading if its terms are accepted. Otherwise, Ukraine is a fascist, Nazi threat to Russia and to Russian “compatriots.” And we know what Putin believes such a threat justifies.

The 1930s analogies keep coming, fast and furious. Here the analogy is Munich, where France and Germany negotiated Czechoslovakia’s fate with Hitler, without the Czechs being present. The Czechs called the agreement the Munich Diktat. Will the Ukrainians call this the Paris Diktat?

There are other similarities. The pretext of the Germans in 1938 was and Russia in 2014 is the necessity of protecting co-ethnics allegedly threatened by independent nations not invited to the negotiations. Munich resulted in the handover of the major industrial region of Czechoslovakia to Germany: the likely outcome of an agreement on Putin’s terms would be to handover Ukraine’s main industrial region to Russia. The Munich negotiations took place under the threat of a German invasion of Czechoslovakia if Hitler’s terms were not accepted, and German troops were massed on the border to carry out that threat. The Paris negotiations are taking place under the threat of a Russian invasion of Ukraine if Putin’s terms are not accepted, and Russian troops are massed on the border with the capability to carry out that threat.

Once upon a time “No More Munichs!” was a catchphrase in US foreign policy. No longer, apparently. Obama and Kerry seem to be saying “Why Not Munich?”

Even if no agreement comes of these talks, or talks that follows, it is deeply shameful that the United States would even engage in such a negotiation on such terms with such a nation. Deeply shameful.


TOPICS: Extended News; Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: coldwar2; communism; kerry; lavrov; monsantonazis; obama; putin; russia; sovietunion; ukraine

1 posted on 03/30/2014 6:48:10 PM PDT by No One Special
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To: No One Special
John “I served in Vietnam” Kerry is the perfect choice to negotiate surrenders.
2 posted on 03/30/2014 6:57:03 PM PDT by immadashell (The inmates are running the asylum.)
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To: No One Special
In 1938 the fate of Czechoslovakia was sealed without the participation of the Soviet Union which shared a border. This led to the Nazi-Soviet Pact which split up Eastern Europe into spheres of influence until the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union 22 months later.

Today Poland and the Baltic States will consider their own reset.

3 posted on 03/30/2014 6:58:03 PM PDT by AU72
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To: No One Special

The truth?

America and Europe have no choice but to accede to Russia’s terms.

They’re not willing to go to war over Crimea. Ukraine itself is a geopolitical prize and is lock, set and match for the Russians.

Who don’t need an agreement to get what they ultimately want. The West is a playing with a weak hand.


4 posted on 03/30/2014 7:00:48 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: No One Special

Until the media comes clean with how the west had a hand in starting this crisis to begin with there is no basis for honest reporting. We’re told that Russia just up and invaded a ‘sovereign country’. What really happened is that the US and the West instigated the coup in Kiev and Russia reacted. Once that narrative is understood one can then make better sense of all that has happened. What’s more, it’s not for Kerry or Obama to agree to what happens with Ukraine, anymore than it would be up to Russia or China to intervene if we had dispute with say, Mexico.


5 posted on 03/30/2014 7:00:53 PM PDT by 2 Kool 2 Be 4-Gotten
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To: No One Special

Excuse me, but, doesn’t Ukraine have any say? I don’t recall Ukraine asking for guidance with what should be done with it. They were trying to fight corruption, and now the two most corrupt presidents are making decisions about its fate.


6 posted on 03/30/2014 7:08:13 PM PDT by 1_Rain_Drop
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To: 2 Kool 2 Be 4-Gotten

Another FRputin spreading disinformation?
FYI Ukrainians crave freedom after years of oppression, rusification and exploitation by anyone. People got enough of Yanukovych commie drive into arms of Putin. Stop the crap about “West instigated the coup”.
Brave Ukrainians showed that drive to commie slavery can be stopped, unlike the Americans bowing to king Kenyan.
Just wait for Putin “liberating” Brighton Beach, NY, lotsa oppressed Russian speakings.


7 posted on 03/30/2014 7:16:58 PM PDT by Leo Carpathian (FReeeeepeesssssed)
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To: 1_Rain_Drop

If Obama and Kerry had principles - they’d tell Putin and Lavrov another country’s domestic affairs are no one else’s business.

But having conceded on Crimea, conceding on Ukraine is the inevitable next step. And Moscow can see very clearly they have no stomach for a prolonged confrontation.

An independent Ukraine is going to be sacrificed to appease the Russians. And like the Czechs, the Ukrainians will be forced to accept the American-Russian diktat because no one will go to war for them.

We lost the game once we decided to fold over Crimea.


8 posted on 03/30/2014 7:17:27 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: 1_Rain_Drop
Excuse me, but, doesn’t Ukraine have any say? I don’t recall Ukraine asking for guidance with what should be done with it. They were trying to fight corruption, and now the two most corrupt presidents are making decisions about its fate.


It's already been confirmed that the United Sates was heavily involved and perhaps even instrumental in the overthrow of the Ukrainian government.

We did our part and Putin did his part so who needs to consult with the Ukrainians.

By the way, Obama has deposed Mubarak in Egypt, Gaddafi in Libya and is trying to depose Assad in Syria.

He tried to depose PM Netanyahu in Israel at the same time he deposed Mubarak and he is still trying to depose the government in Afghanistan.

9 posted on 03/30/2014 7:23:04 PM PDT by rdcbn
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To: No One Special

This is the deal that was agreed to in writing by the three Ukrainian opposition leaders, Russia, Germany, France and Poland back in February.


10 posted on 03/30/2014 7:23:17 PM PDT by mac_truck ( Aide toi et dieu t aidera)
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To: No One Special

Kerry has a long history of betrayal in Paris.


11 posted on 03/30/2014 7:28:14 PM PDT by NonValueAdded (Operating out of weakness? Imagine if he was working from a position of strength!)
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To: goldstategop
The West is a playing with a weak hand.

This reminds me of the secret negotiations the British had with the Soviets near the end of WWII. If I recall correctly, Churchill and Stalin agreed that the British should have 20% influence in eastern Europe.

It was all a farce. Stalin was going to take it all of eastern Europe, and Churchill could do nothing to stop him.

12 posted on 03/30/2014 7:29:47 PM PDT by Leaning Right (Why am I holding this lantern? I am looking for the next Reagan.)
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To: 1_Rain_Drop; goldstategop; 2 Kool 2 Be 4-Gotten; No One Special

I got the smoke, if you’ve got the mirrors.

What is the state of your healthcare these days?


13 posted on 03/30/2014 7:30:56 PM PDT by bigheadfred
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To: rdcbn

The Russians do have a point - you Americans have no respect for the sovereignty of other countries.

And you can sit there and lecture us about the need to respect Ukraine’s sovereignty. Who by the way sponsored the Maidan - and helped its ringleaders to flout an agreement by witnessed by the West themselves back in February?

Our Western partners as Russia is wont to say has no right to preach to us about international law, sovereignty and respect for a country’s internal affairs.

The Russian attitude - you made the mess in Ukraine and you clean it up. We don’t care how you do it as long as you do it.


14 posted on 03/30/2014 7:32:58 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: No One Special

Lavrov dicates the terms and while soiling his depends kerry agrees.


15 posted on 03/30/2014 7:34:46 PM PDT by chiefqc
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To: 2 Kool 2 Be 4-Gotten
Not to mention that the borders of Ukraine are artificial. No one ever allowed the people currently inside the borders whether they even wanted to be inside the new country in 1991.

I know for an absolute fact from visiting and personal contact with people there, that the Carpatho-Russian region which was stolen by Stalin from Czechoslovakia in 1945 has NEVER wanted to be part of Ukraine, and has resisted as well as it could the Ukrainization from the Ukrainian Communist tyranny over the past 70 years.

The whole idea of the poor Ukrainians being subject to "Russification" is total hogwash. The opposite is the case.

As recently as last summer, I was told that the authorities in Kiev (which at time would still have been Yanukovich's government) had forbidden the use of Russian in newspaper and other publications, even though that is what the people there have always preferred. All I could find were in Ukrainian, which has been imposed on them. For one thing, this proves that Yanukovich never was a puppet of Russia and was never especially pro-Russian.

And remember this is the WESTERNMOST area of Ukraine.

16 posted on 03/30/2014 7:45:41 PM PDT by wildandcrazyrussian
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To: rdcbn
Obama is the SOB the world should worry about.
17 posted on 03/30/2014 7:48:05 PM PDT by Navy Patriot (Join the Democrats, it's not Fascism when WE do it, and the Constitution and law mean what WE say.)
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To: wildandcrazyrussian

Prepare for the hatred.


18 posted on 03/30/2014 7:51:29 PM PDT by Navy Patriot (Join the Democrats, it's not Fascism when WE do it, and the Constitution and law mean what WE say.)
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To: wildandcrazyrussian

Funny to hear some Russian politicians, like Zhironovsky, supporting giving Western Ukraine back to Poland.


19 posted on 03/30/2014 7:52:59 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: No One Special

Ah! negotiations in Paris in the Springtime!
-
At dinner, Lavrov decided to gnaw on the Osso-Buco
whilst the ever erudite Kerry dined on the finest escargot that Paris had to offer.

At the end of their “negotiations” Kerry promised to send him a case of Napa wine, if Lavrov would send a case of Russian Vodka soaked raisons to his doting wife!


20 posted on 03/30/2014 8:15:59 PM PDT by Noob1999 (Loose Lips, Sink Ships)
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To: No One Special
Like Obama said, he has a lot more “flexibility” after the election.
He is betraying Ukraine and her people.
He is gifting Ukraine to Putin, to what end we don't know.

I bet Putin has the "goods" on Obama.
1. The real birth certificate?
2. Maybe some bathhouse stories?
3. Some financial relationships before and after his election?
4. Memberships or connections to various groups, photos, speeches, etc.

21 posted on 03/30/2014 8:16:21 PM PDT by oldbrowser (Civil service unions are the real government)
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To: 1_Rain_Drop
Excuse me, but, doesn’t Ukraine have any say?

Nope. Their previous democratically elected government was overthrown by an Obama/Soros/sodomite EU backed coup. The new junta is now just a puppet government. All they can do is follow orders from the IMF and CFR.

22 posted on 03/30/2014 8:23:04 PM PDT by Count of Monte Fisto (The foundation of modern society is the denial of reality.)
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To: Count of Monte Fisto

It has been a month. Ample time for you to have educated yourself on why the elected government was overthrown.


23 posted on 03/30/2014 8:28:23 PM PDT by 1_Rain_Drop
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To: No One Special

Pease in our time!


24 posted on 03/30/2014 8:50:50 PM PDT by justrepublican (Screaming like a "Vexatious requester" at a Wellstone memorial...........)
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To: wildandcrazyrussian

Yes.


25 posted on 03/30/2014 9:06:17 PM PDT by 2 Kool 2 Be 4-Gotten
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To: All
US, Russia fail to reach deal on Ukraine after crisis talks
26 posted on 03/30/2014 9:15:07 PM PDT by No One Special
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To: 2 Kool 2 Be 4-Gotten; Navy Patriot
Thanks!

After several hours, no highly negative response from others? What is going on? Can it be that things are always more complex than the mass media companies are capable of understanding when they reprint government press releases as "news"?

Here's another zinger for you:

Which was the first country to run concentration camps in Europe?

1)  Nazi Germany
2)  Soviet Union
3)  Austro-Hungarian Empire
4)  British Empire

The answer is "3) Austro-Hungarian Empire". During World War I, from 1914 to 1918, Vienna ran a series of concentration camps (properly defined as "concentrating" large groups of people with the attendant violence and death, and not necessarily killing them in mass-production mode like the later Nazis.) The area they conducted mass terror in was "Galicia", roughly the westernmost 5 counties of Ukraine except the Carpathian region, plus southeast Poland. Estimates range as high as 60,000 people in the villages of the region being hanged on-site or sent to these camps, for declaring they were Russian and not Ukrainian.

The most well-known camps, which are still remembered by the Russian population of Ukraine, Belarus, and Poland are Talerhof and Terezin and others as far away as Austria itself.

The later pro-Nazi Ukrainians of Galicia that one reads about, who collaborated with the Nazis and whose grandchildren comprise such pro-Nazi groups as "Right Sector" and "Svoboda", were those who willingly assisted in the destruction of Russian identity in that region after a thousand years of the history of the Rus principalities.

There is no wonder that the Russians of all those countries including Russia itself are extremely mistrustful of the West for facilitating the violent coup d'etat by these same pro-Nazi forces controlling other well-meaning but possibly naive groups.

27 posted on 03/31/2014 4:26:05 AM PDT by wildandcrazyrussian
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To: Leo Carpathian
Ukraine got its chance by way of a violent, manipulated coup it couldn't or wouldn't stop. If protestors pulled that fortress of burning tires stunt in a US city, they'd be shot....and we'd be cheering the police. And what happens? The thugs who manipulated the coup forced upon Ukraine a government that couldn't govern. The people soon discovered that all the EU/globalist/US wanted was to gain control of the economy and assets.

An analogy....if that happened in US, I'd hope that US states would be able to leave the US.

Ukraine is a failed nation. What happened in Kiev in the west shouldn't affect what happens in other parts of the country. Splitting the country and tweaking the borders with other countries I hope produces a Ukraine that can govern, defend, and finance itself....instead of whining for other countries to finance and defend it.

Bottom line....a violent coup is not a democratic process and a vote is not an invasion.

28 posted on 03/31/2014 4:38:10 AM PDT by grania
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To: oldbrowser

The KGB knows plenty about bath house barry.
Much more that the dimrat party.

That whole flexibility thing was a coded surrender.

Thanks dimrats and your media for bringing us this mess.


29 posted on 03/31/2014 4:44:48 AM PDT by Texas resident (The democrat party is now the CPUSA)
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To: rdcbn

What is amazing about the Obama admin deception is that they go into these countries, cozy up to anyone interested (sometimes vermin), agitate and community organize to foment the ousting of these governments with no plans ready if their devious plans fail.

Obama starts the nightmare and when, or if, the SHTF and things go awry, they fold up the tent and hit the road leaving a mess and a vacuum filled by who knows what.


30 posted on 03/31/2014 4:59:08 AM PDT by dforest
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To: Texas resident
That whole flexibility thing was a coded surrender.

I believe Obama is being blackmailed.

31 posted on 03/31/2014 5:45:45 AM PDT by oldbrowser (Is Obama being blackmailed?)
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To: wildandcrazyrussian
After several hours, no highly negative response from others? What is going on? Can it be that things are always more complex than the mass media companies are capable of understanding when they reprint government press releases as "news"?

They may be worried about covert activity/false flag news leaks and high level telephone conversation leakages.

And they might be afraid of you because likely you can find and accurately translate Russian blogs and boards.

When this group demonizes current Russian leadership with Western MSM sources, and are called on the lack of veracity of the source, they switch to American blogs that supposedly are right of center but support the GOP-E that supports leftist One World policy.

The real reason for hatred of Russians by the Modern West, is that Russians are, as a culture, predominately White, Christian and Straight. Those qualities cannot be allowed to accumulate power.

32 posted on 03/31/2014 7:10:16 AM PDT by Navy Patriot (Join the Democrats, it's not Fascism when WE do it, and the Constitution and law mean what WE say.)
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To: 1_Rain_Drop

The coup was supported by Obama, Soros, and the sodomite EU to the tune of billions of dollars, massive propaganda around the world, and God knows what else. The puppet junta is already selling the country out to the IMF and World Bank. That’s all I need to know about this foreign takeover.


33 posted on 03/31/2014 8:39:23 AM PDT by Count of Monte Fisto (The foundation of modern society is the denial of reality.)
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To: Count of Monte Fisto
“and God knows what else. “

Monsanto nazis ?

34 posted on 03/31/2014 8:43:44 AM PDT by Grzegorz 246
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To: Navy Patriot
“The real reason for hatred of Russians by the Modern West, is that Russians are, as a culture, predominately White, Christian and Straight.”

Because as we all know, Ukrainians, Estonians, Georgians and other nations in conflict with them (nearly every neighbor of Russia) are mainly black, homo muslims ! Yeah, let's call Alex Jones know !

35 posted on 03/31/2014 8:49:23 AM PDT by Grzegorz 246
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To: Grzegorz 246
Because as we all know, Ukrainians, Estonians, Georgians and other nations...are mainly black, homo muslims !

You said that, not I.

36 posted on 03/31/2014 8:59:04 AM PDT by Navy Patriot (Join the Democrats, it's not Fascism when WE do it, and the Constitution and law mean what WE say.)
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To: grania
Yes, Commiesaaar! Another example of Putin's disinformatchik here on FR. Yep, dem freedom loving thugs, didn't like Putin's puppet screwing the country into commie paradise, but wanted to be free as Shevchenko prophesized 400 years ago.

New government will be elected soon, there was no gummit forced coup, just pissed off people sick of red terror. Get it? You are being corralled slowly to commie paradise by Obamanomics, so stand by and obey!

37 posted on 03/31/2014 12:00:27 PM PDT by Leo Carpathian (FReeeeepeesssssed)
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To: grania
Ukraine got its chance by way of a violent, manipulated coup it couldn't or wouldn't stop. If protestors pulled that fortress of burning tires stunt in a US city, they'd be shot....and we'd be cheering the police. And what happens? The thugs who manipulated the coup forced upon Ukraine a government that couldn't govern.

The people soon discovered that all the EU/globalist/US wanted was to gain control of the economy and assets. An analogy....if that happened in US, I'd hope that US states would be able to leave the US.

Ukraine is a failed nation. What happened in Kiev in the west shouldn't affect what happens in other parts of the country. Splitting the country and tweaking the borders with other countries I hope produces a Ukraine that can govern, defend, and finance itself....instead of whining for other countries to finance and defend it.

Bottom line....a violent coup is not a democratic process and a vote is not an invasion.

Concurring bump...nice rant.

38 posted on 03/31/2014 7:34:20 PM PDT by mac_truck ( Aide toi et dieu t aidera)
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To: No One Special

Kerry should be sure to take his umbrella for reasons other than the fact that the Weather Channel is predicting rain for Paris this weekend.


39 posted on 04/01/2014 3:17:57 PM PDT by Fiji Hill
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