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Why Rand Paul is Wrong to Blame the US for Pearl Harbor
FrontPage Mag ^ | 04/01/2014 | Daniel Greenfield

Posted on 04/01/2014 8:08:36 AM PDT by SeekAndFind


The views in the video aren’t surprising.

CLICK ABOVE LINK FOR THE VIDEO

They’re the views of Ron and Rand Paul and their intellectual milieu which believes that most wars are set up by banks. According to them, the US need not have gotten involved in WW2.

“There are times when sanctions have made it worse. I mean, there are times .. leading up to World War II we cut off trade with Japan. That probably caused Japan to react angrily. We also had a blockade on Germany after World War I, which may have encouraged them … some of their anger.” Paul says.

Paleocon revisionist historians go on to claim even that Japan exhausted every diplomatic outlet and that it had no choice left but to bomb Pearl Harbor.

Sanctions were never really the issue though. Japan wanted European powers out of Asia. And it considered America a European power.

The attack on Pearl Harbor was a flanking raid in support of the Japanese seizure of the Dutch East Indies. A major reason for Japan’s attack on the US was its assumption that FDR would not have let Japan attack the UK without a response. We no doubt could have abandoned the UK and the Dutch, watched the atrocities from a distance, the torture, mass murder and rape, and gone on selling Japan anything it wanted.

Would that have worked? Doubtfully.

The Japanese army and navy were poorly controlled and its officers were drunk with power and victory. Their understanding of their own limitations was often non-existent. Plans for war with the US had been in place for a while and there were historical grudges there long predating FDR.

A victorious Japan would have been even more difficult to co-exist with than an overcommitted one. Furthermore Hawaii had enough Japanese that the whole Volksdeutsche scenario would have reared its ugly head.

The US could no doubt have ceded Hawaii, but where exactly does all that end?

Japan, like Nazi Germany, was trying to compensate for a bad economic policy with war and conquest. Every victory fed military egos while piling up more problems that could only be dealt with through more war and conquest.

The idea that the US could have just stayed out of Japan’s way is like thinking that you can stay out of a mugger’s way. You can, a few times, but if you intend on being in the neighborhood, he will come for you.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Germany; Japan; News/Current Events; US: Kentucky
KEYWORDS: 911truther; 911truthers; apaulling; danielgreenfield; frontpage; fullmetaltruther; germany; history; japan; kentucky; libertarians; medicalmarijuana; paulistinians; paulnuts; paultardation; paultards; pearlharbor; randnesty; randpaul; randpaultedcruz; randpaultruthfile; randsconcerntrolls; ronpaultruthfile
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1 posted on 04/01/2014 8:08:36 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

Rand is picking some strange battles...he’s his father’s son, after all..


2 posted on 04/01/2014 8:14:17 AM PDT by Homer1
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To: SeekAndFind

Rand Paul has too many knots in his kite string just like his father.


3 posted on 04/01/2014 8:16:22 AM PDT by mongo141 (Revolution ver. 2.0, just a matter of when, not a matter of if!)
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To: SeekAndFind
What??

Joe Biden said the GERMANS attacked Pearl Harbor?

Who are WE to dispute what the VeeP says??


4 posted on 04/01/2014 8:16:39 AM PDT by Bon of Babble (The dogs bark; the caravan moves on!)
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To: SeekAndFind

IIRC, the comment was from a speech from several months (maybe 2 years?) ago. Seems that his comment, out of context, is being twisted and headlined now.


5 posted on 04/01/2014 8:18:36 AM PDT by NEMDF
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To: SeekAndFind

Muy El Flako like his dad & his hair needs an oil change. Would have been an America Firster.

Ted Cruz in 2016. Is there really any doubt, now?


6 posted on 04/01/2014 8:18:48 AM PDT by elcid1970 ("In the modern world, Muslims are living fossils.")
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To: Homer1

Fundamentally, Rand is correct - FDR cut off 80% of Japan’s oil imports and impacted their supply of natural resources through sanctions.

I think this is mis-information and veiled attempt be establishment Republican supporters to hurt Rand’s front-runner status - nothing more, nothing less. Freepers should start reading between the lines as RINOS have learned a lot from Democrat propaganda.


7 posted on 04/01/2014 8:20:13 AM PDT by broken_arrow1 (I regret that I have but one life to give for my country - Nathan Hale "Patriot")
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To: SeekAndFind
According to either Paul, cutting off trade with Japan "forced them into killing scores in Pearl Harbor then millions of Americans more fighting to protect our homeland" is tantamount to saying refusing to honor Allah "forces Islamic terrorists to fly planes into American buildings, behead Christians in their countries and to place pressure cookers along the finish line at the Boston Marathon!"

No Paul's for me thank you!

8 posted on 04/01/2014 8:20:53 AM PDT by zerosix (Native Sunflower)
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To: SeekAndFind

Using Rand Paul logic, we should not secure our own borders, otherwise Mexico could retaliate with a cross border invasion....oh, wait...


9 posted on 04/01/2014 8:21:38 AM PDT by TADSLOS (The Event Horizon has come and gone. Buckle up and hang on.)
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To: SeekAndFind

The US *is* responsible for the Pearl Harbor attack, but for a different reason. There were 9 official inquiries between 1941 and 1946 and a tenth in 1995:

“The inquiries reported incompetence, underestimation, and misapprehension of Japanese capabilities and intentions; problems resulting from excessive secrecy about cryptography; division of responsibility between Army and Navy (and lack of consultation between them); and lack of adequate manpower for intelligence (analysis, collection, processing)”

So we can feel comforted that nothing like this could ever happen nowadays...


10 posted on 04/01/2014 8:22:06 AM PDT by bigbob (The best way to get a bad law repealed is to enforce it strictly. Abraham Lincoln)
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To: SeekAndFind

“There are times when sanctions have made it worse. I mean, there are times .. leading up to World War II we cut off trade with Japan. That probably caused Japan to react angrily. We also had a blockade on Germany after World War I, which may have encouraged them … some of their anger.” Paul says.


Is that all he said? Heck, on a technical basis, what he said is absolutely right.

Of course, most people won’t pick up on the nuances that cause someone who is actually familiar with the world that led to war in the pacific to say what he said.


11 posted on 04/01/2014 8:22:36 AM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: broken_arrow1

Yep. Remember that viral video about instant karma and road rage? Well, the US was the woman and Japan was the man.


12 posted on 04/01/2014 8:24:06 AM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: SeekAndFind

Was it Rand or the liberal reporter that did the story yesterday?


13 posted on 04/01/2014 8:24:42 AM PDT by edcoil (Not a single republican was ever a slave owner. They were all democrats.)
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To: SeekAndFind

The chain of financial related links leading down to WWII are usually beyond the scope of threshing out on a discussion forum without a lengthy associated reading list, but suffice it to say if they didn’t facilitate the creation of the large military forces on credit, the options of the involved powers would have had a far more limited scope. Their actions associated with WWI are what set the stage for the subsequent conflict 20 years later.

As for us maneuvering the Japanese into taking the first shot, of that I have no doubt, and given the situation overall it was good strategic thinking. My main problem with it is that the government “left a lot on the table” so to speak with respect to having the citizen soldiers in the forward areas prepared to meet the coming storm.


14 posted on 04/01/2014 8:24:57 AM PDT by Axenolith (Government blows, and that which governs least, blows least...)
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To: SeekAndFind

I really like Rand Paul, but engaging a debate of the cause or our involvement in WWII is TERRIBLE politics. Those were different times, and most people aren’t aware of all of the variables in play back then. There’s just simply nothing to be gained on his part by such a discussion or debate. In this political world comprised of 5 second sound bites and 30 second ads, you should ONLY say things that will HELP you.


15 posted on 04/01/2014 8:25:19 AM PDT by KoRn (Department of Homeland Security, Certified - "Right Wing Extremist")
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To: broken_arrow1

RE: Fundamentally, Rand is correct - FDR cut off 80% of Japan’s oil imports and impacted their supply of natural resources through sanctions.

Is Rand Paul suggesting with should not impose sanctions on Russia today because they might bomb the USA like Japan?


16 posted on 04/01/2014 8:25:57 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (question is this)
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To: Homer1

so youd rather another dem?


17 posted on 04/01/2014 8:26:59 AM PDT by Revelation 911 (por que no musica?)
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To: bigbob

Yep, and those inquiries were designed to crucify the commanders on site at Pearl, while those who denied them access to our best intelligence got medals and promotions.


18 posted on 04/01/2014 8:29:23 AM PDT by Eric Pode of Croydon
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To: SeekAndFind
I wonder if Rand Paul really wants to become president. And unfortunately, Ted Cruz comes across as everyone's crazy but lovable uncle.

All the Republicans need is a candidate. Are there any unemployed generals around who managed to keep their pants on? So far Clint Eastwood's empty chair looks like the best bet against Hillary.

19 posted on 04/01/2014 8:30:03 AM PDT by Sooth2222 ("Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of congress. But I repeat myself." M.Twain)
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To: SeekAndFind; All

A gross distortion of what Rand said... And it is not all that out of line with some historians not of the libertarian stripe


20 posted on 04/01/2014 8:30:07 AM PDT by Nifster
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To: SeekAndFind

My Dad, who was in Philippines, Leyte Gulf, Battle of Luzon - said he never understood why the US entered the war in Europe. Wouldn’t it have been better to simply let Hitler and Stalin bash each other’s brains out? I still can’t disagree with his position.


21 posted on 04/01/2014 8:30:27 AM PDT by PGR88
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To: zerosix

If you’ve read Japanese thoughts on the situation, that was exactly their thinking, that they would have an approximately 12-18 month window where they could project and consolidate power and resources, or be forced to take a back seat to the demands of the west.

What the Pauls are saying is that we essentially knew that, and also knew that in forcing them to play their hand early the administration would get what they really desired which was a declaration out of Germany bringing us into the European theater before the Germans could consolidate a continental hegemony.


22 posted on 04/01/2014 8:31:31 AM PDT by Axenolith (Government blows, and that which governs least, blows least...)
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To: SeekAndFind

Not what he said at all.


23 posted on 04/01/2014 8:33:15 AM PDT by Sacajaweau
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To: Sacajaweau

RE: Not what he said at all.

It would be helpful to copy and paste his exact quote:

http://therightscoop.com/rand-paul-america-partly-to-blame-for-pearl-harbor-world-war-ii/

“There are times when sanctions have made it worse. I mean, there are times .. leading up to World War II we cut off trade with Japan. That probably caused Japan to react angrily. We also had a blockade on Germany after World War I, which may have encouraged them … some of their anger.”


24 posted on 04/01/2014 8:36:18 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (question is this)
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To: KoRn

You’re right about there being nothing to gain from discussing anything pre-historic (ie, anything before December 7th 1941). Everyone knows that nothing happened between the end of the the civil war and the first week in December of 1941. Cable teevee says so.


25 posted on 04/01/2014 8:36:28 AM PDT by Orangedog (An optimist is someone who tells you to 'cheer up' when things are going his way)
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To: broken_arrow1
I was going to post that the “America forced the poor, helpless Japanese Empire to lash out after being cruelly cut off from desperately needed resources by that dastardly FDR” contingent was alive and well on Free Republic, but you did it for me first. Of course, that same faction never mentions that the Japanese had already invaded China, attacked an American warship on the Yangtze River, annexed Korea, raped Nanking, allied itself with Nazi Germany, and generally stomped around Southeast Asia like a bully stealing lunch money in the schoolyard, but hey, who are we to judge, right?
26 posted on 04/01/2014 8:37:12 AM PDT by SoCal Pubbie
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To: Axenolith

I’m aware of the history of what Japanese reasons given are but the Paul’s contention that the Japanese were “probably forced....” doesn’t include the Death March, the Rape of Nanking nor the Germans, presumably “forcing millions into ovens to bring to the world’s attention that the German people were forced into poverty by the other European countries after WWI.”


27 posted on 04/01/2014 8:37:46 AM PDT by zerosix (Native Sunflower)
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To: Sacajaweau

So, as I asked above, is Rand Paul suggesting that if Iran PROVED to be developing nukes, that we do nothing and let them?

And if Russia invades Eastern Ukraine, Moldova and other East European countries, we do nothing?


28 posted on 04/01/2014 8:38:11 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (question is this)
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To: broken_arrow1

Correct or not, Rand Paul is ill-advised to enter into historical controversies. He risks sounding like an oddball and a crank. That is why US Senators tend to falter as candidates for President: they like to run their mouths about damn near anything and everything. In contrast, Governors (and Presidents) discipline themselves and avoid controversies that do not directly advance their goals.


29 posted on 04/01/2014 8:39:03 AM PDT by Rockingham
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To: SeekAndFind

Sanctions are provocative. That’s the point of them. But they are an “effect” in themselves...not a cause.


30 posted on 04/01/2014 8:39:40 AM PDT by Sacajaweau
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To: Sacajaweau

RE: Sanctions are provocative.

OK, next question.... should America NOT be provocative in the case of Iran or Russia?


31 posted on 04/01/2014 8:40:56 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (uestion)
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To: SeekAndFind

Because he is stupid.


32 posted on 04/01/2014 8:41:30 AM PDT by mulligan (I)
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To: SeekAndFind

How on EARTH anyone calling themselves a Patriot can support the Pauls is absolutely beyond me.


33 posted on 04/01/2014 8:41:52 AM PDT by RIghtwardHo
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To: SeekAndFind

Interesting. Not one word about the Japanese war on China and how
that helped to drive the US policy regarding Japan. As to the Rands,
politicians should confine their public history analysis to the most
basic concepts such as what the Founding Fathers intended. Newt,
whether we like him or not, would be an exception because he is
a professional historian. The Rands read a dubious book authored by
a WWII era isolationist or they just find a way to conform history
to their liking. Either way they look foolish in my book. Too bad.
I generally like Rand.


34 posted on 04/01/2014 8:43:05 AM PDT by Sivad (NorCal red turf)
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To: SeekAndFind

And since “undocumented immigrants” vote Democrat 8-1 and register overwhelmingly as Democrats (the `Freeby Party’), according to Rand we need to stop talking deportation, and “legalize” and embrace them.
What a maroon. If Rand Paul isn’t a Democrat, he should be.
(See new tagline, created especially for the recent bounty of Demo-liars: Reid, Pelosi, Obama, Biden, et al.)


35 posted on 04/01/2014 8:47:19 AM PDT by tumblindice (Are all Democrats inveterate, habitual liars?)
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To: bigbob
The US *is* responsible for the Pearl Harbor attack

I presume you meant US failures were largely responsible for the great success of the attack, not for it's being launched.

36 posted on 04/01/2014 8:52:05 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: SeekAndFind

the same logic that blames the us for pearl harbor applies when blaming society for criminal behavior.


37 posted on 04/01/2014 8:53:47 AM PDT by camle (keep an open mind and someone will fill it full of something for you)
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To: Homer1

Rand Paul did not blaim the U.S. for WWII.

He stated, most correctly, that sanctions can lead to uninteded consequences.

Japan’s decision on attacking the U.S. when it did was based almost solely on the effects of the oil embargo placed upon it.

Sanctions are a form of ultimatum and be the party given the ultimatum may not choose the option that we would prefer. That was Rand Paul’s point, and its a valid point.


38 posted on 04/01/2014 8:54:36 AM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: SoCal Pubbie
Of course, that same faction never mentions that the Japanese had already invaded China, attacked an American warship on the Yangtze River, annexed Korea, raped Nanking, allied itself with Nazi Germany, and generally stomped around Southeast Asia like a bully stealing lunch money in the schoolyard, but hey, who are we to judge, right?

Uncle Joe Stalin made the Japanese look like bedwetting school girls but FDR gave Stalin Manchuria and North Korea, not to mention Poland(!), Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, etc.,etc., and practically ensured the Communuization of China and the deaths of ten of millions Chinese.

39 posted on 04/01/2014 8:56:31 AM PDT by Count of Monte Fisto (The foundation of modern society is the denial of reality.)
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To: SeekAndFind

Anyone have the Rand Paul quote saying he blamed the US for Pearl Harbor?

Didn’t think so.


40 posted on 04/01/2014 8:59:47 AM PDT by Kickass Conservative (Nobody owes you a living, so shut up and get back to work...)
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To: PGR88
he never understood why the US entered the war in Europe. Wouldn’t it have been better to simply let Hitler and Stalin bash each other’s brains out?

USA did not enter the war in Europe.

PH was 12/7, we declared war on Japan on the 8th. Hitler then unilaterally and unnecessarily declared war on USA on the 11th. We returned the favor later the same day.

I presume your dad would think we should fight back when someone declares war on us?

BTW, the idea that Hitler and Stalin would conveniently fight each other to exhaustion while we stand by to pick up the pieces is not necessarily true.

A scenario at least as likely has the Nazis crushing the Reds in 1942, then sitting back to absorb its meal of Europe to the Urals, North Africa and the Middle East. This would have completely eliminated the Germans' resource problems. Immense quantities of manpower and industry come into their control to build up their forces. Invasion and conquest of Europe without Germany having to deal with an Eastern Front was quite literally beyond our power in WWII.

The US leaders at the time, quite rightly IMO, decided that Germany was a real threat to conquer the world, while Japan simply was not.

So the decision was taken, again correctly IMO, to address the greater threat first.

Now today we know it didn't really matter. Nukes in 1945 could have been used as effectively on Germany as they were on Japan. But in 1942 we simply did not know we'd have nukes in a few years. FTM nobody knew for sure whether they'd work till mid-July of 45.

BTW, a strategy by UK and France of leaving Hitler and Stalin to fight it out against each other is exactly what led to the infamous Non-Aggression Pact between the two.

41 posted on 04/01/2014 9:05:44 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: SeekAndFind
" is Rand Paul suggesting that if Iran PROVED to be developing nukes, that we do nothing and let them?"

I believe that the answer to that (from the Pauls) is absolutely yes.

42 posted on 04/01/2014 9:09:37 AM PDT by matthew fuller (No, I don't miss GWB- I miss Dick Cheney and Don Rumsfeld.)
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To: SampleMan

The neocons are out in full force, the order of the day is trash Rand Paul anyway way you can. They’ve got to clear a path for Jeb and Rand is an obstacle that must be destroyed.


43 posted on 04/01/2014 9:10:42 AM PDT by jpsb (Believe nothing until it has been officially denied)
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To: SeekAndFind

ping for later


44 posted on 04/01/2014 9:13:32 AM PDT by carjic (Fed up!)
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To: Kickass Conservative

RE: Anyone have the Rand Paul quote saying he blamed the US for Pearl Harbor?

This is his quote:

http://therightscoop.com/rand-paul-america-partly-to-blame-for-pearl-harbor-world-war-ii/

“There are times when sanctions have made it worse. I mean, there are times .. leading up to World War II we cut off trade with Japan. That probably caused Japan to react angrily. We also had a blockade on Germany after World War I, which may have encouraged them … some of their anger.”

So, what to make of it?

We cut of trade with Japan, Japan because of it, reacted angrily and BOMBED Pearl Harbor.... Isn’t it reasonable to conclude that we were to blame for cutting off trade and causing them to react this way?

Or maybe you have a different take...


45 posted on 04/01/2014 9:13:41 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (uestion)
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To: jpsb

RE: They’ve got to clear a path for Jeb and Rand is an obstacle that must be destroyed.

How about clearing a path for someone with a less isolationist view of foreign policy? Why does it have to be Jeb? Why not Ted Cruz or Sarah Palin instead?


46 posted on 04/01/2014 9:15:10 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (uestion)
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To: Count of Monte Fisto

True, but irrelevant to the topic at hand.


47 posted on 04/01/2014 9:17:39 AM PDT by SoCal Pubbie
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To: SeekAndFind

Funny, I couldn’t find the words “Pearl Harbor” in that quote. hmmmm

BTW - I understand that Rand is a Libertarian who doesn’t believe in Foreign Policy Entanglements. I am not defending his position.

I am just tired of people “quoting” things the person being targeted never said. Reminds me of something Tina Fey said while impersonating Sarah Palin that even people here on FR believe was said by Palin.


48 posted on 04/01/2014 9:50:24 AM PDT by Kickass Conservative (Nobody owes you a living, so shut up and get back to work...)
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To: SeekAndFind

So what does this nimrod think about 9/11?


49 posted on 04/01/2014 9:55:29 AM PDT by minnesota_bound
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To: SeekAndFind

I bet he blames the Chinese and the Koreans and the Australians too for angering Japan.


50 posted on 04/01/2014 10:06:52 AM PDT by minnesota_bound
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