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College Isn't For Everyone
Townhall.com ^ | April 6, 2014 | Kevin Glass

Posted on 04/06/2014 5:26:49 AM PDT by Kaslin

In his first address to Congress after being sworn in as President of the United States, President Obama laid out an aggressive progressive agenda for increasing the number of Americans with college degrees over the next ten years. "We will provide the support necessary for you to complete college and meet a new goal," he promised Americans, "by 2020, America will once again have the highest proportion of college graduates in the world."

President Obama's goal here completely misdiagnoses what ails our higher education system. A culture that encourages and a government that and subsidizes higher education has driven up costs, pushed underqualified students into institutions that they’re not ready for, propped up a student debt bubble and hurt the quality of our higher educational institutions.

THE MARGINAL STUDENT

What’s odd about the President’s agenda is that he recognizes some of these problems. In that same 2009 speech to Congress, he acknowledged that “we have one of the highest high school dropout rates of any industrialized nation. And half of the students who begin college never finish.”

Modern American postsecondary education is thought of as a “bundled” model: everything comes included and nothing is severable: professors, brick-and-mortar buildings, books, testing, certification and so on. But in an economy where so many recent graduates are saddled with student debt and can’t find jobs with the skills they’ve acquired, it might be time to rethink the way the system works for everyone.

Traditional bundled models of higher education – this includes both two- and four-year programs - will be beneficial to the students who are prepared for the academic rigor and willing to make financial plans in order to not overstretch themselves. What’s important is academic preparedness and choosing a course of study, including the level of degree, that is right for a student. The bundled model isn’t for everyone, and it’s increasingly not for the students who are borderline college applicants.

The Census Bureau’s 2011 survey found that the median bachelor’s degree recipient will earn 85% more over the course of their careers than the median high school graduate. Associate’s degree holders will earn 38% more. These figures vary by course of study - engineers benefit from the greatest wage premium, while those who studied humanities or other liberal arts benefit the least - but the benefits are nonetheless there.

Government policy isn’t encouraging more average postsecondary candidates to go to college, though. Those students would likely go on their own. Government policy encourages the marginal students, those who might not be eligible for merit-based scholarships, or might stretch themselves to fit in at a school beyond their academic reach. It’s creating a generation of tragedy.

An average four-year college graduate from the class of 1993 would graduate with $9,450 in student loan debt. The average bachelor’s recipient in 2012 graduated with $29,400 in debt - an increase of over 300%, according to the Institute for College Access and Success. What’s worse are those who drop-out of college with high debt burdens; they don’t get the benefit of the college wage premium and are still saddled with massive debt that came along with their attempt at a college degree.

"It's tragic," says Corie Whalen, spokesperson for free market youth advocacy group Generation Opportunity. “You have these 18-year-olds who don’t know what they want to do, so they go to school. I’m 26, and I have a lot of friends, people my age and slightly younger, who end up dropping out of school, maybe to take a job. ... They’re in this kind of black hole where they’re stuck.”

A 2005 study from the National Center for Public Policy and Higher Education found that 20 percent of all students who borrow to go to college are unable to complete their degree, and the median college dropout had incurred $10,000 in student loans, with nothing to show for it. The study found that a quarter of debt-saddled college dropouts would default on their loans.

NOT EVERY JOB NEEDS A COLLEGE DEGREE

In the post-2008 crash economy, jobs are increasingly becoming available that require training other than a traditional four-year college education. While two-thirds of young Americans enroll in traditional colleges, the Bureau of Labor Statistics reported in 2012 that only one-third of jobs in the American economy require postsecondary education.

Moreover, BLS found, “The most new jobs from 2012 to 2022 are projected to be in occupations that typically can be entered with a high school diploma. ... Apprenticeship occupations are projected to grow the fastest during the 2012-2022 decade.”

According to the U.S. Census Bureau, more than half of graduates who have bachelor’s degrees in communications, liberal arts, and business go on to jobs in which a bachelor’s degree is not required.

With a glut of jobs that don’t require a degree, the perils that befall debt-addled dropouts who have overstretched themselves to go, and the ever-rising cost of attending college, why are people enrolling in four-year colleges at record rates?

The answer: government policy. American government at all levels subsidizes higher education more than any other country, and our culture, including our political leaders, portray a traditional college education as mandatory for success in life.

INFLATING THE HIGHER EDUCATION BUBBLE

“We know it’s harder to find a job today without some higher education,” President Obama said in December 2013, “so we’ve helped more students go to college with grants and loans that go farther than before. We’ve made it more practical to repay those loans. And today, more students are graduating from college than ever before.”

Sadly, in an era of unprecedented dropout rates, skyrocketing tuition, and mounting debt burdens, President Obama wants more people going to college.

The role that government policy has played in sending more people to college is undeniable. Rather than focus on fixing our K-12 education system to better prepare those students who complete high school but are unprepared for college, policies have pushed more high school grads into schools that they’re academically incapable of handling at prices they can’t afford, leading to our current dropout and debt predicament.

The number of incentives used by the federal government to push students toward college continue to increase. There’s the Stafford Loan program run by the federal government that helps students pay for college, and which has been used time and again for political gamesmanship, as seen in the 2013 debate over keeping interest rates on those loans artificially low. There’s the Pell Grant program, a college financing mechanism provided by the federal government that does not have to be repaid and for which total spending has doubled under President Obama. And that’s not to mention tax deductions run by the IRS for everything from tuition to books to student loan interest.

David Wilezol, fellow at the Claremont Institute, says there are important reforms to be made to the method of federal financing of higher education that can vastly improve educational outcomes. “It would be good to put some harder standards in place to get loans and also, to look at what the student is studying,” Wilezol tells Townhall. “There’s going to be a higher return on investment and a better salary if you’re in computer science or chemistry than if you’re in sociology or English… I don’t think it’s wise for the country to subsidize humanities or social science disciplines as heavily as they’ve done.”

Some of these programs are, on net, good policy. There are a lot of students who should be going to college and do need the help. The sum total of the federal government’s intervention in higher education, however, is to encourage too many students to go to college and to subsidize the massive tuition increases we’ve seen.

COMMUNITY COLLEGE ISN’T CHEAP

Four-year colleges are the easiest culprit to point to here, and Obama has pushed for increased utilization of community colleges and associates’ programs to alleviate the crisis in higher education. Andrew Kelly, director of the Center on Higher Education Reform at the American Enterprise Institute, tells Townhall that’s not the right policy solution.

“One of the things you usually hear in this debate is that community colleges are a better option because they’re cheaper, which they almost always are, to the consumer, out-of-pocket… But the completion rates at those colleges are often very low. It’s cheap to the consumer but it’s really expensive to the taxpayer on a per-outcome basis.”

Community colleges are often seen as an easy alternative to traditional four-year bachelor’s programs because, in addition to being cheaper, there’s already an infrastructure built outside of the traditional four-year program. The argument goes that all we need is a cultural shift to push two-year programs into respectability to make them a cheap, viable higher education alternative.

Kelly disagrees with that. “The problem with community colleges is that, simply, their outcomes up to now are far from where we need them to be if we want to have an efficient system of human capital for those types of students that would be better served in two-year programs.” Community colleges aren’t the targeted programs they should be.

Like bachelor’s programs, many community colleges encourage experimentation from students, allowing them to spend time taking broad-based courses that don’t contribute a whole lot to their educational goals. “There’s an emerging thinking,” Kelly says, “that students in the two-year sector need more structured programs that give them a starting point, an endpoint, and a clear mapping from where you start to where you finish.”

THE HIGHER ED CARTEL

Many of the failures of America’s higher education system stem from the belief in the all-inclusive bundled model. It’s clear that in America’s economy, both now and the near future, the bundled model of higher education isn’t necessarily the one that will best serve new workers. Unfortunately, we’re moving at a glacial pace toward accepting the kinds of higher education reform that we need and government has been loathe to disincentivize the traditional model.

Accreditation is overseen by the U.S. Department of Education, which bestows private agencies with the authority to accredit either institutional or specialized categories to schools or programs, respectively. The private accrediting agencies have standards for accreditation which have been approved by the DoE for what it takes to become an accredited program.

The lure of accreditation for higher ed institutions is access to financial aid. A program has to be accredited to receive any form of federal financial aid, both for the school itself and the students. While the accreditation process wasn’t invented to serve as a gatekeeper to financial aid, in the modern higher ed system that’s what accreditation really is.

BRING ON THE COMPETITION

What accreditation does is create a high barrier to entry for innovative methods of higher education that incumbent schools are desperate to protect. We think of postsecondary schools as public-good nonprofits that care only for the best for their students, but they’re businesses like any other and they want to protect their favored status. The Center for Responsive Politics found that education lobbying in Washington, D.C. has topped $100 million in three of the past four years, with millions spent by big school systems like the University of Texas and the University of California alone. As a result, the bundled model is just about the only one on offer for students who can’t pay their own way.

Accreditation was never meant to be the main way that the government would decide which schools students would be incentivized to attend. A reform of the accreditation system might allow a wider variety of education systems to address what American students need. Accreditation, of some form or another, wouldn’t necessarily go away. It would merely give new, innovative education startups the chance to compete for the same higher-ed taxpayer dollars that currently are monopolized by bundlededucation providers.

What the higher education system might need is a good dose of the free market. The incentives are all aligned to send students to traditional educational models that are failing both students and taxpayers. It’s the approach that scholars like AEI’s Kelly emphasize. “If you’re a higher education provider and you have some early outcomes to suggest that students are well served, and you are inexpensive and students can afford to pay with a little help from federal or state governments. Why shouldn’t we embrace that?

“Let the students decide where they want to invest their time and money.”

Small reforms have already begun to push the higher education system toward innovation. Under the Bush administration, accreditation reform, for the first time, allowed the possibility for programs that offered the majority of their courses online to become accredited. It’s why we’ve seen the rise of programs like Strayer University and Western Governors University. These are majority-online, but they also move away from the traditional model of providing credit merely for time invested.

The innovative move in higher education right now is away from credit-hours and toward skills testing. In addition to accredited institutions like Western Governors University, Kelly points to programs like Degreed and Accredible that allow students to gather a sum total of their schooling, their training, and their learned skills to fuse into a comprehensive package, which Degreed calls “Degree Equivalents,” that provide an alternative method to the certificates awarded by bundled postsecondary education.

LET NEW SYSTEMS EMERGE

The higher education models that best serve students may also not exist yet. The beauty of opening up the higher education system to competition and choice is that forms of study may arise that would never be thought up by technocratic education gatekeepers. To an extent, this would be opening up the criticism that taxpayer dollars would be spent on education experiments that might not actually serve individual students as well as the current bundled model does. The status quo, though, is completely failing the students that are most vulnerable.

Millions of students push themselves to the limit every year to take on debt to attend academically intense college programs. For some of them, the current system serves them well. Even so, there are hundreds of thousands of young Americans who have become victims of the college-or-bust mindset, dropping out with mountains of debt and nothing to show for it. Many who complete college will find themselves with a humanities degree that they were promised would open up a world of opportunity, only to find themselves in the unemployment line because the skills they learned in a liberal arts college don’t fit with the jobs that America can provide today.

There may not be any silver bullet to solve the problems that overextended students and college debt pose to America’s youth today. But they deserve better. And Washington politicians ought to tell them the truth and take action on the policy options that could do real good in reforming the status quo.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial
KEYWORDS: college; collegecost; collegedebt; g42; studentdebt; studentloans
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I find the obsession that everyone has to go to college personally ridiculous. It does not matter if the parents are rich or not, what matters is what you have in your brain.
1 posted on 04/06/2014 5:26:49 AM PDT by Kaslin
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To: Kaslin
I took Thermodynamics, Heat Transfer, Differential Equations, and Fluid Mechanics when I was an undergraduate.

Today, colleges offer garbage like this:

20 Completely Ridiculous College Courses Being Offered At U.S. Universities


2 posted on 04/06/2014 5:32:14 AM PDT by SkyPilot
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To: Kaslin

Never has been.


3 posted on 04/06/2014 5:32:18 AM PDT by mulligan (I)
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To: Kaslin

Excellent article! Thank you for posting it.


4 posted on 04/06/2014 5:35:30 AM PDT by NYer ("You are a puff of smoke that appears briefly and then disappears." James 4:14)
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To: Kaslin

Hey Kaslin. I agree whole heartedly with your statement. I’ve known plenty of PhD’s that are absolutely brilliant but are dumber than rocks. Real world facts being attacked with doctoral thesis don’t always work. On the other hand, I’ve known folks with hardly a high school diploma able to figure out things that are beyond a lot of “highly” educated folks. Somtimes your real world experience far exceeds your “learned” ideas. :>} Then there are folks who just “get it”. Not to mention the folks who think that they MUST go in to horrendous debt to send their kids to school. Whatever happened to working your way through college? So it takes more than 4 years. Sense of pride is/can be a good thing.


5 posted on 04/06/2014 5:36:20 AM PDT by rktman (Ethnicity: Redneck. Race: Daytona 500)
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To: Kaslin

It is now for the low information voters who could care less dont do the work and will get that piece of paper anyway fr breathing and the illegals who also get it for free


6 posted on 04/06/2014 5:37:00 AM PDT by ronnie raygun (Im missing a jumbo jet with 235 passengers has anyone seen it?)
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To: Kaslin

College is education. College is for the intellectually capable.

Those who lack the intellect drop out.

There are some like Anita Hill and Michelle Obama and basketball players who are continually lifted up beyond their intellect but they are few.


7 posted on 04/06/2014 5:37:22 AM PDT by bert ((K.E. N.P. N.C. +12 ..... History is a process, not an event)
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To: ronnie raygun

Our high schools need to be revamped. Senior year should be spent learning a marketable skill. High school graduates can go to work and earn their own way through college - if they choose to go.


8 posted on 04/06/2014 5:39:52 AM PDT by abclily
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To: Kaslin

If you want to see a room full of white middle aged divorced liberal teachers give a collective gasp of disbelief...
Just repeat the title in that room.

Yeah, that’s what happens.

BLASPHEMY! RACISM!


9 posted on 04/06/2014 5:41:04 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: Kaslin

I agree with you.

I was at a neighbors grad party a couple of years ago. All of the graduates were strutting around telling everyone what private schools they were going to. One kid sheepishly told all of the Dad’s he was going to automotive mechanic school. We all, to a person, told him he was the smartest of the bunch.

Two years later, he is working full time and making close to $60,000 a year. His goal is to take over a local garage.

He has no debt.

The kid is a genius. And he is happy.


10 posted on 04/06/2014 5:43:43 AM PDT by Vermont Lt (If you want to keep your dignity, you can keep it. Period........ Just kidding, you can't keep it.)
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To: bert

Why do they have remedial math in college?


11 posted on 04/06/2014 5:44:00 AM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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To: ilovesarah2012

——Why do they have remedial math in college?——

To weed out the intellectually inferior


12 posted on 04/06/2014 5:45:12 AM PDT by bert ((K.E. N.P. N.C. +12 ..... History is a process, not an event)
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To: SkyPilot

These courses are perfect for those who have no brain but have parents who can afford to send their offspring to college.


13 posted on 04/06/2014 5:45:15 AM PDT by Kaslin (He needed the ignorant to reelect him, and he got them. Now we all have to pay the consequenses)
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To: Kaslin

Community colleges have been turned by the educational establishment into liberal arts college prep schools instead of centers of training for technical and administrative jobs for those not desiring a four year liberal arts degree.

A nearby community college had a nationally renowned 2 year woodworking program turning out skilled cabinet makers, furniture makers, and trim carpenters. A new college president came to the school and made an arbitrary decision to close the program because the furniture industry was going offshore so there would in the future be no need for this training. The school shut down the program, sold off equipment, sent the skilled instructors packing and reallocated the funding to liberal arts education. The school ignored the fact that very few graduates were going to work in furniture and cabinet factories. In fact most would get a few years of experience, start their own businesses, and become successful small businessmen in the region. The program was dropped despite strong opposition from graduates and the community.

Within the past week I met with an entrepreneur who started an HVAC company that today employs 43 people. He lamented the fact he could not find enough skilled young people to hire as installers and repair technicians. The local technical schools and community colleges are not supplying enough skilled graduates to bring into the business as trainees.

There is a high demand in the market for skilled tradesmen who can work with their hands and their mind. It is a shame the education system fails high school graduates who would benefit from learning a trade. Reallocating some of the billions wasted on higher education toward technical education would benefit small business, millions of unemployable young people, and boost the economy.

Unfortunately the elites who run the education industry look down at people who work the hands and their minds.


14 posted on 04/06/2014 5:45:37 AM PDT by Soul of the South (Yesterday is gone. Today will be what we make of it.)
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To: rktman
"...PhD’s that are...brilliant but are dumber than rocks. ...I’ve known folks with hardly a high school diploma able to figure out things that are beyond a lot of “highly” educated folks."

I only have an Associate's degree (earned it on-line, part-time) - I am in a position with my company that requires a 4-year degree (minimum), and routinely out-duel guys with multiple degrees come lay-off time.

Dad taught me that hard work and integrity (and common-sense) will (eventually) trump everything else.

15 posted on 04/06/2014 5:52:14 AM PDT by Psalm 73 ("Gentlemen, you can't fight in here - this is the War Room".)
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To: SkyPilot

Well, given society today, that “Zombies in Cultural Media” course could be very useful if it delved into the art of Zombie-killing.


16 posted on 04/06/2014 5:53:52 AM PDT by Gaffer (Comprehensive Immigration Reform is just another name for Comprehensive Capitulation)
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To: Psalm 73

A favorite and oft heard line on job sites and shop floors all over “and I told that engineer.....”


17 posted on 04/06/2014 5:54:10 AM PDT by bert ((K.E. N.P. N.C. +12 ..... History is a process, not an event)
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To: NYer

My pleasure


18 posted on 04/06/2014 5:54:22 AM PDT by Kaslin (He needed the ignorant to reelect him, and he got them. Now we all have to pay the consequenses)
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To: Kaslin
Progressives permit only certain opinions in university as witness to this
19 posted on 04/06/2014 5:56:40 AM PDT by wtd
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To: SkyPilot

Some degree’s are not worth having.

Last summer I had a door-knocker from NYPIRG babbling on about how bad fracking was. It was rather amusing. After taking him apart on fracking, I informed him that a few years earlier that I had some pretty 20-nothing from NYPIRG babbling on about mercury from burning coal.

When cornered about the energy inputs on solar panels ( i.e. the energy to mine, and refine rare earths to usable purity to make those solar panels work) he babbled on how he didn’t have a science degree. I asked him what he did have a degree in. He responded with “BA in Near Eastern Studies” form NYU. I asked him what sort of work he thought he could find with such a credential. He lamented that he could not find anything beyond waiter/barista.

I then queried what possessed him to want to enter a degree program where there was no meaningful opportunities for employment after graduation? He responded that his parents told him he could be anything he wanted to be. To which I replied, yes that is true but in order to live he needed to provide some value to his fellow citizens that they would in fact be willing to PAY for.

He complained of the high debt that he had, and I told him that he should have gone into engineering, mathematics, computer science, or accounting where he could provide value to someone that they would actually be willing to him pay for.

I said to him Near Eastern Studies was a nice hobby, not a career.

I enjoy particle physics, and spent several years working in that field at Cornell University. The problem with it was that it didn’t pay very well and left it for a major corporation which used what I learned to develop products that people would actually pay for and remunerate me appropriately.

I told him he needed to take the coexist bumper sticker off his car, and get with the program. Being a liberal is the life of a loser and he should head for the military to learn how to be an adult with meaningful skills.


20 posted on 04/06/2014 5:58:22 AM PDT by Ouderkirk (To the left, everything must evidence that this or that strand of leftist theory is true)
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To: bert
"A favorite and oft heard line..."

True, but I would never "show" anyone up, and always keep a degree of humility when they come to me for guidance or direction.
(I do, however, quietly fade away when the conversation turns to University pedigrees...)

21 posted on 04/06/2014 6:00:31 AM PDT by Psalm 73 ("Gentlemen, you can't fight in here - this is the War Room".)
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To: Kaslin
“We know it’s harder to find a job today without some higher education,” President Obama said in December 2013, “so we’ve helped more students go to college with grants and loans that go farther than before. We’ve made it more practical to repay those loans. And today, more students are graduating from college than ever before.”

I can see at least one lie in this paragraph. Maybe three.

For the life of me I can't understand how college has become so expensive. If congress wants to investigate something investigate this.

Poor kids who do go to college have such a financial burden to start off their life it's depressing.

22 posted on 04/06/2014 6:02:37 AM PDT by McGruff (prop.a.gan.da - information of a biased or misleading nature)
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To: abclily

I agree with you that high schools should be revamped, and also to some part that high school graduates should go to work if they can find jobs to work them through college, but I also think those that do have the brain for college, but can not afford to go to higher education should get some help.


23 posted on 04/06/2014 6:03:54 AM PDT by Kaslin (He needed the ignorant to reelect him, and he got them. Now we all have to pay the consequenses)
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To: Kaslin

I think that nationally the level of high school teaching has declined to the point where “Community College” is now 2 years of the old senior year in high school.

I employ a couple very bright young people. One of them wrote a list of the things he didn’t learn in high school that I had to teach him - things that were part of my high school (graduated in 1969 and I did NOT go to college).

Here is a partial list:

- How and why to vote. Used to be called Civics.
- How to use banking (checks, savings, etc). Used to be called Home economics or something similar.
- PRACTICAL math. This was the course that the “vo-tech” kids took and taught how to use math every day.
- A simple, general shop class. How things work like your kitchen sink, toilet, your car and the like. When I was in school EVERYONE took a shop or home economics course.
- A basic human biology course. He learned all about sex but learned nothing about kidneys, livers, gall bladders, etc.

The list goes on to include about 30 things.

So high school is now geared toward teaching just enough so a kid can get into college, but not enough so upon graduation a kid can function in the working world.


24 posted on 04/06/2014 6:04:15 AM PDT by msrngtp2002 (Just my opinion.)
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To: Vermont Lt

He is indeed a genius


25 posted on 04/06/2014 6:06:07 AM PDT by Kaslin (He needed the ignorant to reelect him, and he got them. Now we all have to pay the consequenses)
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To: Soul of the South

Colleges are full of taxpayer funded students who bog the whole system down. They aren’t bad people but they and the nation would be better served in trade schools.

The worst part is the fact that all that taxpayer funding does what taxpayer funding always does. The colleges invent new ways of justifying the funding with worthless courses and professors.

My sister is trying to get some sort of business degree though our local community college. Used to be you paid a couple hundred dollars, took the courses and got the degree. Unfortunately our community college is trying to become another unneeded 4 year school and they’re behaving like one. The first thing she has to do is take an orientation course so she can learn to juggle college and social life. She’s nearly 50 years old and hasn’t had or needed a social life in decades. The orientation course requires several school specific books that will cost hundreds of dollars.


26 posted on 04/06/2014 6:07:08 AM PDT by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: Psalm 73

Good on ya. I only had a high school ed. but during my 36 year career I showed that I could do the job and went from a grade 7 mechanic to a senior engineer position by the time my career ended. Am I that smart? Maybe, maybe not. I think that I could pick out a particular “tree” in a forest full of them and understand how it worked and how to take the best advantage of it. Either that or I was REALLY good at fooling management. LOL! Or maybe it was because I was willing to do whatever it took to get the job done safely and as close to schedule as possible. Plus sometimes telling the bosses certain truths they didn’t like but knew were right.


27 posted on 04/06/2014 6:09:29 AM PDT by rktman (Ethnicity: Redneck. Race: Daytona 500)
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To: Soul of the South
Unfortunately the elites who run the education industry look down at people who work the hands and their minds.

And that is a shame, but what can you expect from educated idiots, which these elites are?

28 posted on 04/06/2014 6:09:53 AM PDT by Kaslin (He needed the ignorant to reelect him, and he got them. Now we all have to pay the consequenses)
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To: Ouderkirk

Did he listen to you? Him being a liberal I doubt it though


29 posted on 04/06/2014 6:14:50 AM PDT by Kaslin (He needed the ignorant to reelect him, and he got them. Now we all have to pay the consequenses)
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To: McGruff

“For the life of me I can’t understand how college has become so expensive. If congress wants to investigate something investigate this.”

College has become so expensive because of all the money Obama and the Left have been throwing at it. Exactly as housing prices soared before the 2008 crash because so much money was being thrown at that market.

Just as a hypothetical, suppose word got out that you needed to own an Upright Piano to get a good job, and the government started pushlng loans to buy Upright Pianos and encouraging as many people as possible to get into the market regardless of how much debt they incurred. What do you think would happen to the price of Upright Pianos?


30 posted on 04/06/2014 6:15:57 AM PDT by Junk Silver
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To: McGruff

Poor kids who have the brains, should get help with their college education


31 posted on 04/06/2014 6:17:23 AM PDT by Kaslin (He needed the ignorant to reelect him, and he got them. Now we all have to pay the consequenses)
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To: msrngtp2002

You, sir, should be directing education. There is more of worth in your reply than exists in the vast majority of out “education “ faculties in both high school and college.


32 posted on 04/06/2014 6:18:08 AM PDT by Da Coyote
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To: Kaslin
My father went to College and graduated from the University of Michigan with a Engineering degree in 1949. He went on to work for GE, Whirlpool, and Emerson Electric. He invented most of the safety technology our world uses today.

I went to Ohio State with a business degree with computer courses in 1989. My wife went to Miami of Ohio with a business degree. We have two sons that are going to be college graduates. The only reason they went is they knew in their Junior year of Highschool what they would graduate in. One is a Bio-Medical engineer who graduates this year and the other one enters college as a Chemistry major 2018 class.

Not all should have children, college, marriage or house. The pursuit of happiness is a personal thing. God gave us all gifts and how you choose to use them is what makes humanity different and makes his plan perfect.
33 posted on 04/06/2014 6:22:14 AM PDT by Baseballguy (pharaphase (If someone does not believe in heaven or hell - they should not care where they go))
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To: Kaslin

When I was growing up, a worthless degree was only so you could get into a management training program. Today the same worthless degree is only used so you can fill one of the squares on a job application. “College Degree? Yes”.

My field is Operations & Projct Management. People in my field parade around their MBA’s and that’s what companies want in their PM’s. When I interviewed for my current job I was asked why I should get the job and not someone else. I said because with the MBA all you are going to get are the pretty reports that management wants to see and a delayed project. With me you will get a project completed on time and on budget.

The manager interviewing me said that was a little rude. So I told him, “83% of projects fail for whatever reason. Notice how many PM’s are MBA’s? If you want someone to get a project done, always hire experience over education. Especially one who has the same PMP credential.” I was asked to wait outside for 5 minutes. When I came back in they offered me the job on the spot.

Just finished my first government project for the company. We came in on the day we said we would at the cost we said we would. Side note: I barely graduated high school and have over 20 years in as a PM.


34 posted on 04/06/2014 6:23:22 AM PDT by EQAndyBuzz ("Heck of a reset there, Hillary")
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To: Psalm 73

Often, they don’t know I’m the engineer.

Silence is the best course


35 posted on 04/06/2014 6:29:46 AM PDT by bert ((K.E. N.P. N.C. +12 ..... History is a process, not an event)
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To: Soul of the South

“Unfortunately the elites who run the education industry look down at people who work the hands and their minds.”

This REALLY annoys me - you can even see this attitude on “The Big Bang Theory” - where Sheldon looks down upon and constantly derides Wolowitz, the lowly engineer. In Europe (particularly Eastern Europe), engineers are (or at least were) addressed and announced as “Mr(s). Engineer” as much as “Mr(s). Professor”, “Mr(s). Academician”, Mr(s). Doctor”.


36 posted on 04/06/2014 6:30:22 AM PDT by The Antiyuppie ("When small men cast long shadows, then it is very late in the day.")
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To: Kaslin

A good percentage of college graduates today, maybe even a majority, would have been better off learning a skill or trade instead of attending college.

When they do graduate, many have inflated expectations but almost no marketable skills.

They can’t fix a plumbing leak or change the oil in their car themselves, and thanks to a near useless college degree, they can’t earn the money to pay a plumber or mechanic to do it for them.


37 posted on 04/06/2014 6:30:35 AM PDT by Iron Munro (The future ain't what it use to be -- Yogi Berra)
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To: Psalm 73
“University pedigrees”

Is that like a PHD? (piled higher and deeper)

That always makes me giggle when I hear someone say that! :)

38 posted on 04/06/2014 6:35:19 AM PDT by Ditter
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To: Kaslin
The Census Bureau’s 2011 survey found that the median bachelor’s degree recipient will earn 85% more over the course of their careers than the median high school graduate. Associate’s degree holders will earn 38% more. These figures vary by course of study - engineers benefit from the greatest wage premium, while those who studied humanities or other liberal arts benefit the least - but the benefits are nonetheless there.

Correlation is not always causation. It could be that those who did earn degrees would have earned more over their lifetimes even without the degree. It could be IQ and motivation that is responsible for the financial success, not the college degree.

For instance, if the engineering student hadn't gone to college, perhaps he would have started his own business in a technical field that could be mastered with self study or apprenticeships.

39 posted on 04/06/2014 6:35:52 AM PDT by wintertime
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To: EQAndyBuzz

Most of those new “credentials” are total, absolute, self-serving crap and a racket. Project management must have 40 new methodologies and a hierarchy of credentialing BS behind each one. Still, project fail. Why? For the same reasons that they have for the last 6000 years:

0. Collective magical thinking.
1. Feature creep.
3. Poor governance and milestone management (e.g., execution failure, particularly that discovered late in the project).


40 posted on 04/06/2014 6:37:03 AM PDT by The Antiyuppie ("When small men cast long shadows, then it is very late in the day.")
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To: Kaslin

The solution to this is at the state level, since universities receive the majority of their money from the state.

First, recognize the axiom that the *reason* that states subsidize higher education is so that their citizens can get better paying jobs than with just a high school education.

Then compile a list of majors offered by the university, compared to how many of their graduates in those majors get employment in that area of study within six months of graduation.

At the top of the list of majors, you will see Nursing, Education, and Criminal Justice, as getting the most jobs for the most graduates. At the bottom you will see ethnic and gender studies and many other joke majors that get no one hired, ever.

After this, only two questions remain:

1) Should the state discontinue funding for these worthless majors?

2) Should the state prohibit students from impoverishing themselves by using students loans to take these majors?

Loan slaves do not improve society, which is why in most states loan sharking is outlawed. So why not outlaw loans that impoverish students yet do not provide them with fair “consideration” (a business law term)? States have “lemon laws”, so why not “lemon degree” laws?


41 posted on 04/06/2014 6:38:05 AM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy (WoT News: Rantburg.com)
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To: McGruff
For the life of me I can't understand how college has become so expensive. If congress wants to investigate something investigate this.

Take the government money out of "education" and the cost will fall.

Part of the expense problem is the number of highly paid, tenured professors who do no, or very little, classroom teaching.

Another factor is the expense of providing all of the different liberal "feel good" courses - Wymens studies, The Black Influence On the 17th Century Fur Trade, Homosexualism In the Literature Of 18th-century France, etc....

42 posted on 04/06/2014 6:45:12 AM PDT by Iron Munro (The future ain't what it use to be -- Yogi Berra)
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To: abclily; Kaslin
For many bright children high school should be completely eliminated.

Two examples:

1) Many homeschoolers are entering college as young teens.

My own children stated college at the ages of 13, 12, and 13. The the younger completed B.S. degrees in mathematics by the age of 18. The oldest of these two earned a Masters in mathematics by age 20. The oldest of the three was a nationally and internationally ranked athlete. He now has a masters in accounting.

2) Our Founding Fathers went to college as young teens. It was considered normal to do this.

Starting a career 4 or more years early can add up to a quarter of a million dollars or **more** over a lifetime. That alone, if used wisely, would buy a nice house and/or provide for a secure retirement.

43 posted on 04/06/2014 6:48:37 AM PDT by wintertime
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To: The Antiyuppie; EQAndyBuzz
0. Collective magical thinking.
1. Feature creep.
3. Poor governance and milestone management (e.g., execution failure, particularly that discovered late in the project).
That, and fencepost errors just about cover it.

Fight the Free Sh☭t Nation

44 posted on 04/06/2014 6:48:37 AM PDT by Mycroft Holmes (<= Mash name for HTML Xampp PHP C JavaScript primer. Programming for everyone.)
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To: Soul of the South
The school Communist college president shut down the program, sold off equipment, sent the skilled instructors packing and reallocated the funding to liberal arts education to his crony educationalist.

There! Fixed that! We don't have an education system in the U.S. We instead have crony-education for members of the education-industrial-complex.

45 posted on 04/06/2014 6:56:35 AM PDT by wintertime
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To: SkyPilot

“Far Side Entomology” - Now THAT looks like a fun course.


46 posted on 04/06/2014 6:59:08 AM PDT by P.O.E. (Pray for America)
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To: Kaslin
Schooling is not synonymous with education. The two are often opposed.

Anyone can learn marketable skills if they want to, or are incentivized to.

The most important function of formal schooling is to teach people how to communicate and think. Grammar and logic. With those two skills, children have the ability to learn and seek truth.

47 posted on 04/06/2014 7:00:10 AM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas ( Isaiah 22:22, Matthew 16:19, Revelation 3:7)
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To: Ouderkirk

With regard to your post 20, do you think that your friend had the intellectual competency to handle a curriculum in engineering, mathematics, computer science, or accounting?

So many Freepers assume that anyone can do whatever they want to do. It’s rather like the old joke, “If I had the mind to, I could write like Shakespeare.”


48 posted on 04/06/2014 7:10:16 AM PDT by OldPossum ("It's" is the contraction of "it" and "is"; think about ITS implications.)
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To: Kaslin

“College Isn’t For Everyone”

What college isn’t is a substitute for competence and an old fashioned work ethic. Intelligence can be a handicap if a person views their IQ as a substitute for hard work and loyalty. I have been blessed/cursed with bright children and teaching this lesson is a full time job.


49 posted on 04/06/2014 7:24:25 AM PDT by Spok ("What're you going to believe-me or your own eyes?" -Marx (Groucho))
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To: Junk Silver

“College has become so expensive because of all the money Obama and the Left have been throwing at it.”

While a lot of this started before Obama came into the picture, in 2010 the he signed a law removing commercial banks as lenders and substituted federal government as the originator of federally guaranteed student loans. Interestingly, at the time of the law passage, total outstanding college loan debt exceeded consumer credit card debt.

Most colleges would not be able to maintain the high tuition rates of tuition and room/board pricing without all the financial aid given to students - Pell grants, student loans, etc etc. You are right, by making money so easy to come by to fund higher education, it has helped drive up the cost of education.

The current higher education model has started to be impacted negatively. I wonder aloud how universities, with their collective intelligence, don’t openly show (if there is any recognition of the problem) any concern on how the level of federal funding threatens their future viability and sustainability, their independence and academic freedom. Then again, being run mostly by leftists, I am not surprised.


50 posted on 04/06/2014 7:35:21 AM PDT by Susquehanna Patriot (U Think Leftist/Liberals Still Believe That Dissent = Highest Form of Patriotism?)
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