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Dear Anti-Vaxxers: You Want Pure Nature? OK, Die Young.
Time ^ | April 2 | Jeffrey Kluger

Posted on 04/06/2014 9:06:58 AM PDT by Hojczyk

None of the New York parents who are refusing to vaccinate their children today were around the city in the summer of 1916, which is good for them and good for any of the kids they might have had. It was in that summer that 27,000 children nationwide were struck by a polio outbreak, 9,300 of them in New York. Of those 9,300 victims, 2,700 died. The Salk family at 116th St. and Madison Ave. escaped the scourge, meaning that their two-year-old son Jonas was spared. History notes that when he grew up, he had a little score-settling to do with the poliovirus.

Parents who oppose vaccines are not only misinformed, they’re spoiled, having grown up in a world that stands behind the berms built by the scientists and vaccine developers who came before them. If you’ve never seen measles — or polio or whooping cough or mumps — you have the luxury of believing they don’t exist.

“We live in a very healthy community,” said one of the sublimely glib doctors cited in the Mother Jones story. “The incidence of these diseases are very low, not only here but nationwide. And so it’s safe to do a modified vaccine schedule, in my opinion.”

But the incidence of these diseases is very low precisely because most doctors and parents don’t think the way you do and do vaccinate on schedule. “We live in a very dry community,” the doctor might as well have said. “So it’s safe not to maintain the levees and flood walls that have protected us until now, in my opinion.”

And so you drown; and so unvaccinated children get sick. The words “in my opinion” are not themselves some kind of rhetorical vaccine. They can, instead, be the pathogen. Like all pathogens, they can kill.

(Excerpt) Read more at time.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events
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1 posted on 04/06/2014 9:06:58 AM PDT by Hojczyk
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To: Hojczyk

I’m not an “antivaxxer” but this crap is sounding more and more like the fascist left all the time.


2 posted on 04/06/2014 9:09:56 AM PDT by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: Hojczyk

Only The Good Die Young
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhjNm20XbXw


3 posted on 04/06/2014 9:14:10 AM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (Pubbies = national collectivists; Dems = international collectivists; We need a second party!)
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To: cripplecreek

One facet of the rise of Fascist America.


4 posted on 04/06/2014 9:15:15 AM PDT by Navy Patriot (Join the Democrats, it's not Fascism when WE do it, and the Constitution and law mean what WE say.)
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To: Hojczyk
Rascals, would you live forever?
-- Frederick the Great

I'm sure I sound insane, but I am convinced that "progress" is never going to come from government action. However, war and disease do have a pretty good track record for pushing civilization on to new heights. Death is unavoidable, and when we try to avoid it, things don't always go well.

5 posted on 04/06/2014 9:15:33 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy
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To: Hojczyk

A letter to the editor today in our local Gannett newsrag stated the belief that autism is the result of too many vaccinations given at the same time or too close to one another.


6 posted on 04/06/2014 9:18:01 AM PDT by JimRed (Excise the cancer before it kills us; feed & water the Tree of Liberty! TERM LIMITS NOW & FOREVER!)
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To: cripplecreek

I don’t care if YOU don’t get vaccinated, but don’t make me pay for the results. By the way, vaccines don’t cause autism.


7 posted on 04/06/2014 9:20:12 AM PDT by VanShuyten ("a shadow...draped nobly in the folds of a gorgeous eloquence.")
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To: JimRed

When people do not act with knowledge they are acting with superstition. Might as well believe in witch doctors and magic cures.

Americans have dumbed down so far that they won’t even protect their children with proven vaccinations because someone on the magic internet told them not to, and that makes them feel smart, doing what no one else is doing.


8 posted on 04/06/2014 9:23:14 AM PDT by CodeToad (Arm Up! They Are!)
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To: VanShuyten

Apparently it cause some kind of brain damage in you that affects your ability to read and comprehend.


9 posted on 04/06/2014 9:23:34 AM PDT by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: Hojczyk

No we are not against vac,ing our kids, just the very toxic materials used in them. With the rates of Autism on the rise, all data seems to be pointing at the materials used in treating our kids.

Materials like mercury,formaldehyde,supposed to be a dead virus, but mistakes do happen & live ones get used, need I go on.


10 posted on 04/06/2014 9:24:45 AM PDT by TMSuchman (John 15;13 & Exodus 21:22-25 Pacem Bello Pastoribus Canes [shepard of peace,dogs of war])
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To: Hojczyk
As a participant in the polio vaccination campaigns of the late fifties/early sixties, after years in which tens of thousands of people suffered from the disease with thousands of deaths and paralyses, and which virtually eliminated polio as a fear in the American consciousness, I would suggest people consider the many advances due to public health measures, rather than fretting about "fascist" government.

Polio is transmitted person to person, so any increase in unvaccinated people in the population increases the risk of infections.

11 posted on 04/06/2014 9:32:41 AM PDT by hinckley buzzard
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To: Hojczyk

The key is “proven vaccines”. Yes some are tired and true. Others not so much. And some like like flu vaccines show no benefit. It’s become a money making machine with the usual canards and derision for those who don’t blindly trust the medical profession. I’m sorry but with so many instances of medical malpractice from Fen-Phen to the insane overdiagnosing of learning disabilities resulting in millions of child speed junkies, one is a fool not to view any of these medical mantras suspiciously.


12 posted on 04/06/2014 9:35:07 AM PDT by Seruzawa (Get ready, little lady. Hell is coming to breakfast.)
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To: cripplecreek

“You” in the general sense of “not me”, not “you” in the specific sense. I should have used “people” instead. My semantics fault.


13 posted on 04/06/2014 9:35:36 AM PDT by VanShuyten ("a shadow...draped nobly in the folds of a gorgeous eloquence.")
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To: cripplecreek
“I’m not an “antivaxxer” but this crap is sounding more and more like the fascist left all the time.”

It's sound more and more like people that have been bought off by big pharmaceutical companies to me. And I'm not an 'antivaxxer' either, but I'm neither blind nor stupid. A 'study' that tests one vaccine at a time, when we know doctor's are frequently giving as many as eight vaccines at a time - means nothing. If you believe it does, you are either seriously naive or on a pharmaceutical payroll.

Want to convince me? Test eight at a time, just the way they are given, and then I'll believe.

And yes, I had several of these vaccines as a child. And taking them was a pain in the rear for my parents, as each one required my mother to bring us downtown on the bus. Seems our old family doctor had a rule: one at a time, come back next month for another. Wonder if he knew something?

14 posted on 04/06/2014 9:36:29 AM PDT by I cannot think of a name
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To: ClearCase_guy

I have no problem with the basic childhood vaccines that I received but have no interest in getting vaccinated against something that might or might not cause me some discomfort later in life.

As far as lifespans are concerned, I think the stats are mostly crap. In my genealogy research I’m finding lots of males in my family were living well into their 70s and 80s back into the 1500s. (before vaccinations) Females tended to die younger mostly because they spent so much of their lives pregnant. Children were the hardest hit but they didn’t have the benefit of our basic childhood vaccines OR any other modern hygiene or medicine.

As far as the title of the article is concerned it sounds like something that would ooze out of the mouth of Alan Greyson.


15 posted on 04/06/2014 9:36:47 AM PDT by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: Hojczyk

There are two clear sides to the vaccination dilemma, and only one side is given in the mainstream media.

DOESNT THAT TELL YOU SOMETHING?

Does the media ever explain gun rights to protect against despotic government? Ever?

Does the media ever mention the ills of society and the economy caused by illegal immigration?

Does the media ever compare numbers of dangers to health from gay promiscuity vs. consumption of fat?? Does it??

Hmmmm.

The positive on vaccinating is: some of the vaccines might make it more difficult to become infected with the disease, and some might even cause immunity, temporary or long term.

The negatives: each vaccine contains neurotoxic adjuvants and metals and preservatives, and some questionable media. Plus, many vaccines are only given from multi dose bottles (not all ingredients will be evenly dispensed over the weeks that bottle is used. The last few doses may have many more metal parts than the first), and with multiple vaccines in one, supposedly to keep from repeatedly sticking an infant with sharp needles.

The safest way to give a vaccine is to give them individually, to a perfectly healthy person with a strong and developed gut population: meaning immune system. Yet one can’t. They are only made as multiple multiples.

Also, they insist on sticking these multiple vaccines into tiny newborns, 2, 4, and 6 months old. Their immune systems / gut populations are barely forming. Their health can be compromised by tiny things at that age, even teething, and the parents can not predict which days the child’s gut population is strong enough not to affect the child’s neuro system negatively. And the reason helpless infants are given these dangerous neurotoxins? Because the pediatric association says this is the only time they can get the mothers to bring the kids in. EVEN AT GREAT RISK TO THE BRAINS OF GENERATIONS. It is too early to risk those ingredients, and so MANY vaccines, and with the rates of children with brain disorders getting close to one in 50, let us rethink this plan to poison newborns on this mass scale.

The risks for neurological chronic or disabling damage can be far greater than the risk of the disease. No one in mainstream medicine or media is properly informing parents of these risks, yet they all panic over people not vaccinating. BOTH SIDES NEED TO BE TOLD.


16 posted on 04/06/2014 9:37:32 AM PDT by Yaelle
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To: CodeToad

When people do not act with knowledge they are acting with superstition. Might as well believe in witch doctors and magic cures.

Americans have dumbed down so far that they won’t even protect their children with proven vaccinations because someone on the magic internet told them not to, and that makes them feel smart, doing what no one else is doing.


Your two paragraphs contradict each other.

It is those who choose to study the neurotoxic effects of vaccine ingredients given en masse to tiny newborns who are informed, not the sheep who follow what the mainstream media insists.

What are you doing on FR anyway? CNN and MSNBC can give you all the trusted mainstream info you need.


17 posted on 04/06/2014 9:40:52 AM PDT by Yaelle
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To: Yaelle

“What are you doing on FR anyway? CNN and MSNBC can give you all the trusted mainstream info you need.”

You’re an idiot for even saying such a stupid thing. If you think you are so smart as to not vaccinate your children, you need professional help.

Don’t know what makes you so stupid, but it really works.


18 posted on 04/06/2014 9:43:53 AM PDT by CodeToad (Arm Up! They Are!)
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To: cripplecreek

Okay, here is the deal. It is your right to not vaccinate. But, if you or your family is infected, it is my right to protect myself from you, which includes stopping you from threatening me with your diseases.


19 posted on 04/06/2014 9:44:00 AM PDT by sagar
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To: Yaelle

“neurotoxic effects of vaccine ingredients “

You don’t have the education to even know what those words mean. You just follow the conspiracy theory crowd like third-world masses follow witch doctors.


20 posted on 04/06/2014 9:44:59 AM PDT by CodeToad (Arm Up! They Are!)
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To: Hojczyk

The public health medicine community (CDC and others) brought this problem on by continually piling on shots for diseases that while terrible, don’t generally cause epidemics.

My father was a polio survivor and so I am a huge believer in vaccines, but the current schedule is excessive and that’s the main reason for the revolt against it.

I had my children in the mid-nineties when they introduced the Hep-B vaccine to be given to newborns. This is because the hospitals didn’t want to profile mothers as a risk factor (sex worker or IV drug user), so we’ll just vaccinate everyone.

The basic dishonesty involved is offensive to pretty much the rest of us moms who may be distracted by our busy lives, but we aren’t stupid and we don’t like jabbing our babies repeatedly for things that are NOT actual risks.

If they backed the schedule down and did honest and intelligent lifestyle risk assessments with the parents, they’d find a lot higher rates of compliance.


21 posted on 04/06/2014 9:45:01 AM PDT by Valpal1 (If the police can t solve a problem with violence, they ll find a way to fix it with brute force)
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To: I cannot think of a name

And yes, I had several of these vaccines as a child. And taking them was a pain in the rear for my parents, as each one required my mother to bring us downtown on the bus. Seems our old family doctor had a rule: one at a time, come back next month for another. Wonder if he knew something?


Exactly.

The population of bacteria in our lower intestines can only handle so much. Overwhelm the immune system and the brain will be damaged for the lifetime of the child.

Children dying from disease and accident is rare. And it will happen and make terrifying, heartbreaking news.

But children with autism, ADHD, learning disabilities, in epidemic proportions is like the frogs in the slow to boil pot of water.


22 posted on 04/06/2014 9:45:17 AM PDT by Yaelle
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To: sagar

Apparently your ability to read has been affected as well.

Seems to be a pattern.


23 posted on 04/06/2014 9:47:17 AM PDT by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: CodeToad

If you wish to call me stupid for trying to keep some of my children from extra difficulties in life, faced by my oldest, dutifully shot full of vaccines as an infant, shout away.


24 posted on 04/06/2014 9:47:57 AM PDT by Yaelle
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To: cripplecreek

People downplay the role of sanitation. Cholera would be extremely limited in its spread today thanks to wastewater treatment. Food handling makes a lot of 19th century illnesses hardly heard of. Thekey here is proven vaccines. Some are not so much in that category.


25 posted on 04/06/2014 9:48:19 AM PDT by Morpheus2009
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To: Yaelle

“The risks for neurological chronic or disabling damage can be far greater than the risk of the disease.”

The facts of the matter do not support your ignorant blabber.

Your claim is that children are not protected from diseases when they most certainly are.

You are a dangerous idiot trying to spread such nonsense around. Luddites like you are liberals that just want to stop any and all technological advances. You’re simply too stupid to keep up and think machinery and technology are too complicated for your little peas sized brain to follow along and so you want it all to stop.

Typical liberal: A moron.


26 posted on 04/06/2014 9:48:31 AM PDT by CodeToad (Arm Up! They Are!)
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To: Valpal1

The HPV one is especially offensive, IMHO.


27 posted on 04/06/2014 9:50:10 AM PDT by Morpheus2009
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To: Seruzawa

“And some like like flu vaccines show no benefit. “

Actually, the flu vaccine does show benefit. Where do you get your information that it doesn’t?


28 posted on 04/06/2014 9:51:33 AM PDT by CodeToad (Arm Up! They Are!)
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To: CodeToad

You don’t have the education to even know what those words mean. You just follow the conspiracy theory crowd like third-world masses follow witch doctors.


I have a few degrees; what should I have gotten more of so that I could understand that ingredients bundled into multiple vaccine doses can harm the brain?

Oh, and there isn’t a conspiracy to harm babies. It’s a greed and a CYA issue for Pharma and docs. Children are the casualties.


29 posted on 04/06/2014 9:51:58 AM PDT by Yaelle
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To: CodeToad

Your claim is that children are not protected from diseases when they most certainly are.


No. Read my post again. My vaccine pros: vaccines may make it harder to catch some diseases. They may result in temporary or long term immunity to some diseases. No one could argue with that.


30 posted on 04/06/2014 9:54:09 AM PDT by Yaelle
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To: TMSuchman

But why, if vaccines are the cause, is the rate of autism going up if fewer people are vaccinating? (and no, we now know that the increase in autism is not due to an increase in diagnoses. It’s really happening.)

Type 1 diabetes is increasing at a rate of 3% a year, which simply cannot be as a result of diagnoses. You either have T1D or you don’t. You can’t fool the meter.

I specifically bring up T1D because anti-vaxers say that there is a link between vaccines and autoimmune disease, including T1D.

So why are we are seeing an increase in autism and childhood autoimmune disease, although the vaccination rate is falling?

I absolutely believe that *something* in our environment is making our kids sick. The numbers don’t lie. But if it were vaccinations, we’d be seeing these rates drop as more parents opted out and that’s just not what’s happening.

We need to put more resources into the search for the real culprit.


31 posted on 04/06/2014 9:57:46 AM PDT by Marie (When are they going to take back Obama's peace prize?)
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To: CodeToad

http://www.thelocal.se/20100217/25036

etc.

Cochrane report is pretty damning of most flu vax use.


32 posted on 04/06/2014 9:58:52 AM PDT by Black Agnes
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To: Marie

Actually vax rates are higher than they were in the 80’s and 90’s. And to be ‘unvaccinated’ a child only has to miss one shot of any of the many shot series now on the schedule.

The schedule in 1983 had fewer than half the shots on the 2014 schedule.


33 posted on 04/06/2014 10:01:11 AM PDT by Black Agnes
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To: CodeToad

More succinctly:

http://summaries.cochrane.org/CD001269/vaccines-to-prevent-influenza-in-healthy-adults

“The preventive effect of parenteral inactivated influenza vaccine on healthy adults is small: at least 40 people would need vaccination to avoid one ILI case (95% confidence interval (CI) 26 to 128) and 71 people would need vaccination to prevent one case of influenza (95% CI 64 to 80). Vaccination shows no appreciable effect on working days lost or hospitalisation.”


34 posted on 04/06/2014 10:03:06 AM PDT by Black Agnes
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To: Marie

Some more information on ASIA:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?linkname=pubmed_pubmed&from_uid=20708902


35 posted on 04/06/2014 10:06:01 AM PDT by Black Agnes
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To: CodeToad; Seruzawa; Yaelle

The benefit claimed from flu vx is the antibodies in the blood of the person 2 plus weeks after being vaxed.

There has never been a study done of large studies of populations both vx’ed and non-vx’ed, to see if they got flu or not. Even a simple uneducated layman such as myself can see how such a study could be done easily. But for some mysterious reason, neither the CDC and other medical institutions like the NIH, or pharmaceutical companies, seem to want to do that study.

So until that happens, it’s really up in the air.

Plus, at best the flu vx is, according to vx manufacturers, 70 to at very best 80% effective - based solely on antibody response in people who got vxed; not by studying whether vx’ed people got flu or not. Also their percentage of utility of vaccine is whether the three strains of flu (most flu vx’s are trivalent) wind up being a good match for the flus that arrive.

Since the flu vx is formulated months before flu season, the CDC tries to figure out (”guesses”) which flus will be circulation in 6 or more months, and uses those strains. Flu viruses mutate promiscuously, and very often the vx winds up not being a good match for the yearly flus.

There is also some evidence from a Canadian study done last year, IIRC, that getting vx’ed over and over can cause the person to get flu more severly. If I have time I’ll try to find that.

So it is a grey “science” at best. And makes a ton of $ for the manufacturers. Interesting to note that the last head of the CDC, Nancy Cox, when she left, went to head up Merck’s vaccine division. Nice revolving door.


36 posted on 04/06/2014 10:06:22 AM PDT by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
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To: Morpheus2009

I disagree, HPV is recommended at age twelve. That is a reasonable age to give a vaccination for a disease that is not casually transmitted.

I’m not freaked out about vaccinating tweens for sexually transmitted diseases before they are sexually active. It’s merely closing the barn door before the horses are out, which is a scientifically and logical pragmatism. Even if I’m raising my kids with traditional Christian moral values, it’s pretty clear mainstream culture isn’t and the best way to protect them from it is to discuss it honestly.

It should be offered, but not required.


37 posted on 04/06/2014 10:07:09 AM PDT by Valpal1 (If the police can t solve a problem with violence, they ll find a way to fix it with brute force)
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To: Morpheus2009

My real problem was with the tone of the article. It doesn’t invite reasoned debate any more than if the writer had titled it “Your mamma is a whore and you are too”.

As to your point I agree. We way underestimate the effects of things like modern sanitation, antibiotics, refrigeration etc. We don’t have 8 people living in a 10x10 cabin with farm animals wandering in and out. Its pretty rare for someone to die from a scratch or stepping on a nail these days.

If an AIDS vaccine is developed are we going to vaccinate nuns against it?


38 posted on 04/06/2014 10:08:53 AM PDT by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: CodeToad

Just because YOU chose to buy into the safe vaccines blather, doesn’t mean they’re safe.

Here’s a bit of research for you.

http://www.activistpost.com/2014/04/fda-vaccine-insert-lists-autism-as.html#more


39 posted on 04/06/2014 10:11:40 AM PDT by PrairieLady2
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To: Hojczyk; All

As a side note to this thread, this country has an issue with respect to people who, for various reasons, don’t make informed decisions.


40 posted on 04/06/2014 10:11:41 AM PDT by Amendment10
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To: little jeremiah

Actually the CDC head who ‘discovered’ the 35k+ ‘flu deaths’ that had been happening every year for decades (how did they miss them for decades?) in the exact same year that Merck’s patent for their blockbuster statin went off patent AND they had significant financial legal issues with VIOXX was named Julie Gerberding. She’s now head of Merck’s vaccine division.


41 posted on 04/06/2014 10:12:12 AM PDT by Black Agnes
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To: Valpal1

Several countries have rescinded the recommendation for HPV. The lastest is Japan. I’m sure all those MD/PhD’s in the Japanese ministry of Health would get a kick out of being called Jenny McCarthy:

http://www.tokyotimes.com/2013/hpv-vaccine-seen-differently-by-japan-and-the-u-s/


42 posted on 04/06/2014 10:14:24 AM PDT by Black Agnes
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To: TMSuchman

No, you do not need to go on. And since you’re eschewing modern medicine, next time you or your family falls ill. . .go looking for leeches.

Because you’re not welcome in my E.R. or hospital. . .


43 posted on 04/06/2014 10:15:17 AM PDT by Salgak (http://catalogoftehburningstoopid.blogspot.com 100% all-natural snark !)
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To: PrairieLady2

Yeah, polio is such a bother today because vaccines don’t work. Really? You buy that stupid conclusion?


44 posted on 04/06/2014 10:15:50 AM PDT by CodeToad (Arm Up! They Are!)
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To: Hojczyk

My problem was not with the vaccines themselves but the schedule. My daughter is fully vaccinated. We just spread them out. We worked the schedule out with our pediatrician. She received 1 vaccine at a time. That way, if there was a reaction, we’d know what it was from. The original schedule (8 yrs ago) was up to 4 shots at a time. If there was a reaction, how’d you know which vaccine caused it?


45 posted on 04/06/2014 10:16:58 AM PDT by jodster36
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To: CodeToad

The biggest issue I have with vaccines today is that they and their constituent parts are manufactured in China and India. And the FDA has stated several times it isn’t responsible for inspecting all or even any of those ingredients/vaccines prior to their being used on the citizenry.

Moreover, the vaccine manufacturers are indemnified completely from any ill effects of vaccines. So they aren’t going to be testing those lots either.

Who the hell knows what was in this years flu vaccine besides the necessary ingredients. Or even IF the necessary ingredients were in there...


46 posted on 04/06/2014 10:18:50 AM PDT by Black Agnes
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To: Black Agnes

That, we agree. Quality of those made overseas is a problem.


47 posted on 04/06/2014 10:20:42 AM PDT by CodeToad (Arm Up! They Are!)
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To: Marie

On autism, because it’s a spectrum disorder (large range of variability and severity), I think it has both a genetic component and an environmental component. My current self educated guess is that it’s a combination of increased parent age (of both mothers and fathers), genetic susceptibility and a component of stress during pregnancy and possibly also fetal distress during delivery. I’ve been following the research on oxytocin research and therapy and think it looks very promising. I also think that it is very politically incorrect to point out that the feminist ideals of career first, children last may be a contributor to epidemic.

As for T1D, I haven’t studied that one much yet, but I would like to see demographic studies. Is it a general population wide increase or is concentrated more in some populations than others. I would expect diet and lifestyle plays a very strong role in this disease.


48 posted on 04/06/2014 10:23:10 AM PDT by Valpal1 (If the police can t solve a problem with violence, they ll find a way to fix it with brute force)
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To: CodeToad

They began sourcing ingredients there roughly around the time the autism epidemic began.

Cogitate on that for a moment...


49 posted on 04/06/2014 10:25:27 AM PDT by Black Agnes
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To: Hojczyk

Let’s be clear here: pro-vaccine people do NOT want everyone to be vaccinated.

What they want is for the government to be able to force unvaccinated adults out of their jobs and schools, and send SWAT teams after unvaccinated children.

There is a BIG difference.


50 posted on 04/06/2014 10:28:57 AM PDT by Talisker (One who commands, must obey.)
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