Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Why It Is Hard to Fix California [ Cites the initiative process as main reason ]
breitbart.com ^ | April 6 2014 | Brian T. Kennedy

Posted on 04/06/2014 5:27:39 PM PDT by NoLibZone

With the initiative process, both liberal and conservative causes could be realized. Liberal public employee unions, most notably the California Teachers Association, could lock in high levels of education spending with Proposition 98. Fed-up taxpayers could place limits on property taxes with Prop 13. Californians concerned with illegal immigration could pass Prop 187 (if only later to see it fail in court). And those Californians who saw the injustice of state-sponsored racial preferences could ban them with the California Civil Rights Initiative.

But the initiative process, however satisfying it sometimes seems, has also made electoral politics seemingly less important. Whereas other states fight hard to build political majorities, Californians have been happy to elect Democratic legislatures with the occasional Republican governor, leaving anything of import to a vote of the people every two years with a ballot initiative ginned up by a group of concerned or affected citizens. As a practical matter, winning a Republican majority appears to be just not that important, so far, to California’s political and business elites.

(Excerpt) Read more at breitbart.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; News/Current Events; US: California
KEYWORDS: california; proposition13; proposition187; proposition98

1 posted on 04/06/2014 5:27:39 PM PDT by NoLibZone
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: NoLibZone

Couldn’t have anything to do with the fact that the state is run by Democrats. They’ve done such a bang up job with cities they’ve run for generations like Detroit, Chicago, Newark, etc. Why wouldn’t the same thing happen with a state they completely dominate?


2 posted on 04/06/2014 5:32:40 PM PDT by vbmoneyspender
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: vbmoneyspender
The point of the essay is to suggest that maybe the reason we have been plagued with Democrat majorities in the Senate and Assembly for decades is because conservatives believe they can right some of the wrongs that their legislators create through the initiative process.

We now know that this will never happen. Any time a conservative proposition passes it will now be challenged in court and our Democrat leaders will fail to defend it. If any private citizen tries to carry the challenge through the courts he will be denied for "lack of standing".

The good news is that the progressive, democratic, mob-mentality initiative process is dead.

The bad news is that we now have to get off our collective behinds and work to get some Republicans, or at least pro-business Democrats, elected.

3 posted on 04/06/2014 5:43:32 PM PDT by who_would_fardels_bear
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: NoLibZone

187 did not fail. The gov. (Dim Davis) did not defend it.
The ‘[will of the people] be damned.


4 posted on 04/06/2014 5:56:22 PM PDT by sasquatch
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NoLibZone

Yes, I believe it is the Initiative Process too. It once seemed like a good idea, but instead — special interests whup folks up to do THEIR bidding. Looks like one thing, it really is another. It also lets the politicians in Sacto avoid anything that is not safe, or hide behind ‘the people’ to do it.

We are a Republic not a Democracy, and there are very good reasons for that. I read recently, ‘THE PEOPLE wanted to save the Delta Smelt, so we cut off the water to So Cal and gave it to the smelt.” No responsibility for this in Sacto? You bet there IS!! But those slime-balls teflon it off.


5 posted on 04/06/2014 5:57:58 PM PDT by bboop (does not suffer fools gladly)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NoLibZone

Illegal immigration and the flight of conservatives are the main reasons.


6 posted on 04/06/2014 5:59:03 PM PDT by MrEdd (vHeck? Geewhiz Cripes, thats the place where people who don't believe in Gosh think they aint going.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: vbmoneyspender

The article says that the reason they elect Democrats is because bypassing the legislature through initiatives thwarts the building of political coalitions that would result in more Republicans being elected.


7 posted on 04/06/2014 6:12:37 PM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum ("A man who damns money obtained it dishonorably; a man who respects it has earned it." --Ayn Rand)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: AdmSmith; AnonymousConservative; Berosus; bigheadfred; Bockscar; cardinal4; ColdOne; ...

Not enough tsunamis?

Thanks NoLibZone.


8 posted on 04/06/2014 6:21:52 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: SunkenCiv
Not enough tsunamis?

Nice touch. Throw that baby out with the bath water.

9 posted on 04/06/2014 6:26:13 PM PDT by bigheadfred
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: who_would_fardels_bear
The good news is that the progressive, democratic, mob-mentality initiative process is dead.

Where are you getting your information from? The initiative process is alive and doing well in the Peoples Republic of California.

10 posted on 04/06/2014 6:51:57 PM PDT by 17th Miss Regt
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: bigheadfred

I k-elp myself.


11 posted on 04/06/2014 7:01:44 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: SunkenCiv

aisle gee agree


12 posted on 04/06/2014 7:04:08 PM PDT by bigheadfred
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: 17th Miss Regt
It is dead to me and all thinking individuals.

Of course there are a whole lot of idiots in California, so it might take a while for them to get the message.

13 posted on 04/06/2014 7:05:11 PM PDT by who_would_fardels_bear
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: NoLibZone

Mexico will fix it when it takes over


14 posted on 04/06/2014 7:09:21 PM PDT by molson209 (Hillary Clinton)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NoLibZone

Where does Americas Fruits and Nuts come from?

The answer might give you a clue....

You can’t fix stupid, only breed them out.
Unfortunately the nuts of CA have made that impossible.

Place is doomed.


15 posted on 04/06/2014 7:14:12 PM PDT by mowowie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NoLibZone
define fix.

The citizens exercising their initiative option in CA is the only thing that has kept the democrats from completely turning the state into a purely communist welfare gulag

16 posted on 04/06/2014 7:17:10 PM PDT by drypowder
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NoLibZone
LIST OF CALIFORNIA STATE AGENCIES
17 posted on 04/06/2014 7:25:36 PM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist (GO WISCONSIN BADGERS GO!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: E. Pluribus Unum
California having gone into the toilet has nothing to do with the initiative process. If anything, the initiative process held off the statists for a generation - think Proposition 13 which Ronald Reagan supported, with his support subsequently convincing many voters to support him for President.

What has caused California to go into the toilet are the leftists. When attempting to take over a place, they first attempt to drive out as many productive members of society as possible. Their purpose is to reach a tipping point where the parasites outnumber those who are self-reliant. In California, during the late 90s and afterward, literally millions of conservative voters emigrated to more business friendly locales such as Arizona, Nevada, Idaho and Texas. That left the leaches who have turned the formerly red California state into a deep blue state.

The same tactics the leftists used to turn California into a deep blue state, they are now attempting to use to turn the United States into a deep blue nation. So if we want to stop them, we should be clear on what has led to their rise - and trust me - it ain't the initiative process.

18 posted on 04/06/2014 7:42:39 PM PDT by vbmoneyspender
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: NoLibZone

On the other hand, I remember reading articles about the recent proposal to split the state of California into 6 separate states. Presumably this would result in 10 additional US Senators—almost all of whom will be Democrats. Between that, and the 20 million illegal aliens that we now have, that should pretty well seal the deal for Democrat control of our federal government until the whole thing crashes down from the debt. (Feeling depressed on a Sunday evening.)


19 posted on 04/06/2014 7:43:22 PM PDT by Avid Coug
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NoLibZone

It’s not the process.... it’s the people.


20 posted on 04/06/2014 8:13:13 PM PDT by aquila48
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: bboop

The initiative process has actually protected the progressives in the State legislature and in their county governments from accountability to the people. Look at Prop 13. Rather than throw out the Democrats in the legislature, the people fixed the ridiculous tax rates that were driving them out of their homes (in our county, the rates reached 8.5% per year!!!). With the initiative process, the people got to keep their liberal legislature while not having to pay for it.


21 posted on 04/06/2014 8:19:57 PM PDT by Carry_Okie (ObamaCare is Medicaid: They'll pull a sheet over your head and send you the bill.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: vbmoneyspender
I beg to differ. I used to be a staunch supporter of Prop. 13, but I have come to realize that it has been more a curse than a blessing.

Before Prop. 13 each city could set its own property tax rates like in almost every other state. This allowed some cities to be more or less attractive than others. Republicans could run efficient governments and have low property taxes. Democrats would run inefficient overly "compassionate" governments with high property taxes.

People could then vote with their feet and move out of the high tax cities to the low tax cities. If the people who moved to the Republican run cities wanted to continue to have low taxes they would have to register and vote Republican. The mayors of these cities would become natural candidates for statewide office.

With Prop. 13 all this went away. We could all have our cake and eat it too. Every city was "Republican" taxwise, and so the only things of importance that people could vote on were more goodies from the inexhaustible government trough. One-by-one the cities and counties turned Democrat. One-by-one potential sources of statewide Republican officeholders went Democrat.

Now the state is run by Democrats. Now they have voted to take some local money for themselves and have voted to send some state money to cities they like. Now if you are a citizen of a particular city or county and want your roads fixed you pretty much have to vote for the Democrat to get any chance of having it done.

It would have been better in the long run if most decisions were made locally. With Prop 13 the decisions and the money moved to the state where the Democrats reign supreme.

Even the 2/3rd majority for raising taxes clause in Prop 13 turned out bad. For years Democrats could allow just enough Republicans to win office to prevent taxes from going up and getting blamed for it. Meanwhile they could vote for more and more goodies knowing that eventually they could get the funding they needed through the initiative process without getting the blame.

It's become a complete racket that we now have less ability to control because all important decision are now made at the state level.

22 posted on 04/06/2014 11:23:44 PM PDT by who_would_fardels_bear
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: who_would_fardels_bear

That’s the first coherent argument I’ve heard against Prop 13. You have me reevaluating.


23 posted on 04/06/2014 11:29:00 PM PDT by Lurkina.n.Learnin
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: NoLibZone

I prefer to let California continue on it’s current slope and like any liberal bastion it’ll end up like Detroit in self deserved destruction.

What I would like to see is the ability to stop liberals from moving out of any place they destroy. Force them to live in the shxt hole they created and maybe, just maybe after many years in hell they created they’ll evolve into humans.


24 posted on 04/07/2014 2:23:55 AM PDT by maddog55 (I'd be Pro-Choice if we could abort liberals.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: who_would_fardels_bear

Did you live in California before Proposition 13 was passed?


25 posted on 04/07/2014 7:05:42 AM PDT by vbmoneyspender
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: vbmoneyspender
I've lived in California all my life. I was young when it was passed so I didn't have any experience paying taxes before Prop 13.

Some other points:

1. Prop. 13 was partly sold as a way to allow people to stay in their homes as they aged and went onto fixed incomes. However, today most of the tax benefits of Prop. 13 go to corporations rather than individuals. Corporations have found loopholes which allow them to transfer properties without triggering a reassessment. This is something that private citizens can't do.

2. In Colorado, where I lived for over ten years, they allow seniors to pay a lower property tax while they are still occupying the home. Then when the property is transferred to their children, the children have to make up the difference between the tax paid and the tax owed. This allows the cities to set their own tax rates, and allows seniors to stay in their homes. It's a good compromise to my mind. Of course, in California we now feel like we have a right to pay relatively low property taxes all our lives and ALSO pass on the entire equity of the house to our children. But that is a dream we need to let go of.

3. Probably the only reason that some companies still do business in California is the relatively low property taxes. If we were to eliminate Prop. 13 overnight, or just the tax break for corporations, then that would most likely lead to economic Armageddon. Still, some cities could offer tax breaks or local versions of Prop. 13 to businesses to lure them from one city to the other. There is no reason that Prop. 13 couldn't be enacted at the local level, at least the part dealing with property taxes.

4. The 2/3rds provision in Prop. 13 only referred to taxes. For a long time there were just enough Republicans to keep taxes from going up. Meanwhile there were more than enough Democrats to take away our gun rights, give more goodies to the public employees unions, more legislation to give our tax dollars to illegal aliens, etc. I believe that it would have been better if this 2/3rds provision hadn't been included in Prop. 13. If it hadn't, I believe that long ago the Democrats would have been emboldened to raise the state income tax to ridiculous levels. That would have triggered a Republican revolt which would have led to Republican majorities that would not just have lowered taxes, but eliminated a lot of the leftist legislation the Democrats have drowned us in as well. That's just a guess on my part, but I think it is a reasonable one.

26 posted on 04/07/2014 7:48:52 AM PDT by who_would_fardels_bear
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: vbmoneyspender

“all my life” should be “almost all my life”.


27 posted on 04/07/2014 7:50:04 AM PDT by who_would_fardels_bear
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: who_would_fardels_bear
Come on, if you lived here then you know that Prop 13 was what kept homes affordable for a generation. Eventually the tax benefits were lost as homes were sold, which is why you had a wholesale emigration of the Republican middle class to states like Colorado and Arizona and Idaho and Texas in the 1990s and early 2000s.

And if Prop 13 is at fault for California going deep blue, what explains other states such as New York and Illinois going into the toilet. You can't blame Prop 13 for the problems in those states.

On the hand, the tactic of leftists moving to successful places (such as the formerly successful states of New York and Illinois and California) and turning them into havens for parasites and no-go zones for the productive explains exactly what has happened in all 3 of those states.

To my mind, blaming Prop 13 (which first and foremost was a tax cut and which passed in 1978) for what the left has done to California after Pete Wilson left office in 1999 is bizarre. It is equivalent to blaming the Reagan tax cuts of the 1980s for leading to the election of Barack Obama in 2008.

28 posted on 04/07/2014 8:28:51 PM PDT by vbmoneyspender
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: vbmoneyspender
I do not know that California's real estate was any more affordable than the rest of the country. I do know that we have lots of space and we kept building further and further out which also kept a lid on prices.

I do not know that Prop 13 had much to do with that. I do know that any city that wanted to pass a local Prop 13 law could have done so.

I also know that more and more power moved to the state level where it is harder to make changes.

Even with all of the liberals in New York, there are enough people upstate to keep their legislature balanced. Even the Illinois legislature was dependably Republican until the 1990's.

In California the once staunch conservative stronghold of Orange County is now just barely Republican and certainly not conservative by any stretch of the imagination.

If you're right, then what kind of conservatives were those that collected their lottery winnings when house prices rocketed in the 80's and then left for greener pastures? Did they have any thoughts for their "community"? Or were they just a bunch of self-interested libertarians that got while the getting was good?

29 posted on 04/07/2014 9:39:46 PM PDT by who_would_fardels_bear
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: NoLibZone

It’s not the initiative policy, it’s the fact 90% of those left living in CA are totally nuts.


30 posted on 04/07/2014 9:49:50 PM PDT by Fledermaus (I support Joe Carr in the TN GOP Primary against Lamar!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson