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Oklahoma-Texas border dispute has ranchers worried (BLM also pushing Texas Red River Range War)
Red TV ^ | Apr 10, 2014 | RFD-TV News Staff

Posted on 04/11/2014 6:43:06 AM PDT by xzins

BYERS, Texas (RFD-TV) Most people think the border between Texas and Oklahoma is the Red River. Unfortunately, it’s a little more complicated than that, especially along the part of the river where Tommy Henderson and his family ranch. Henderson lost a lawsuit 30 years ago that moved part of the northern Texas border over a mile to the south.

The Bureau of Land Management [BLM] took 140 acres of his property and didn’t pay him one cent.

Now, they want to use his case as precedent to seize land along a 116-mile stretch of the river.

“They’re wanting to take the boundaries that the courts placed here and extend those east and west to the forks of the river north of Vernon and east to the 98th Meridian which is about 20 miles east of us,” Henderson explained.

BLM, which oversees public land in the United States, claims this land never belonged to Texas.

The Texas landowners who have lived and cared for that land for hundreds of years beg to differ.

BLM plans on taking the land anyway. Property owners will be forced to spend money on lawsuits to keep what is theirs.

For many, that property has been in their family for generations.

"How can BLM come in and say, "Hey, this isn't yours." Even though it’s patented from the state, you've always paid taxes on it. Our family has paid taxes for over 100 years on this place. We've got a deed to it. But yet they walked in and said it wasn't ours," said Henderson.

Ever since the Louisiana Purchase in 1803, there has been controversy over where Oklahoma ends and Texas begins.

In layman’s terms the boundary is the vegetation line on the south side of the Red River.

Over time the river moves. This movement north toward Oklahoma is the sticking point.

The sandy soils erode in a process called accretion, which wipes out the bank. So the property line follows the river.

BLM claims that the river moved by another process called avulsion. With avulsion, the land may be changed by flood or currents, but the property line isn’t. So BLM claims that when the river moved back north the property line stayed put.

It doesn’t help that Oklahoma defines avulsion differently than Texas and the U.S.

“Originally, here the river was out there where it is now and it eroded and accreted up to here, and then it eroded and accreted back. Well, their interpretation is that it eroded up to here but avulsed back. So when you listen to them it is always erosion to the south because the property line follows it then, but it’s always avulsion when it goes north. So the boundary can move south but it can never move back north," said Henderson.

About 90,000 acres could be seized by BLM, disappearing across a new state line. If they are allowed to take the land, it could also affect farmers and ranchers down river like Scott Carpenter, who ranches north of Nocona.

BLM couldn’t take his land, but there would be nothing to stop his neighbor across the river from claiming some of Scott’s property belongs to him. That is just one of the reasons Carpenter wants to help.

"We have numerous places that have been in our family for over a hundred of years, and you hate to see land that people’s worked hard for would lose,” said Carpenter. “As producers we are always on a defense. We have to make decisions to try to help ourselves to help one another."

Both ranchers have been in contact with U.S. Congressman Mac Thornberry, who is working to help stop the land grab. Henderson’s land probably won’t be affected this time, but he’s hoping what happened to him won’t happen to his fellow landowners.

This report is from our partners at the Texas Farm Bureau.


TOPICS: Activism/Chapters; Crime/Corruption; Front Page News; News/Current Events; US: Oklahoma; US: Texas
KEYWORDS: blm; bundy; bundyranch; clivebundy; corruption; fascism; oklahoma; redriver; texas; tyranny
From AGWEB.com:

http://www.agweb.com/blog/grazing_the_net/red_river_range_war/

Red River Range War

Apr 10, 2014

What is it with the BLM this spring? Nevada rancher Clive Bundy's 30-year tussle with BLM came to head this week, and now the BLM has stepped into the middle of the Red River to void the deeds held by some farmers on land they've paid taxes on for decades. The Red River has long been considered the border between Texas and Oklahoma, but over time the river moves. The BLM wants to use a 30-year-old case they won against one Texas rancher as precedent to seize more land along a 116-mile stretch of the river. Property owners say they'll be forced to spend large sums of money in what could be a lengthy legal process. The dispute may involve 90,000 acres.

1 posted on 04/11/2014 6:43:06 AM PDT by xzins
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To: All; P-Marlowe
From AGWEB.com: http://www.agweb.com/blog/grazing_the_net/red_river_range_war/

Red River Range War

Apr 10, 2014

What is it with the BLM this spring? Nevada rancher Clive Bundy's 30-year tussle with BLM came to head this week, and now the BLM has stepped into the middle of the Red River to void the deeds held by some farmers on land they've paid taxes on for decades. The Red River has long been considered the border between Texas and Oklahoma, but over time the river moves. The BLM wants to use a 30-year-old case they won against one Texas rancher as precedent to seize more land along a 116-mile stretch of the river. Property owners say they'll be forced to spend large sums of money in what could be a lengthy legal process. The dispute may involve 90,000 acres.

2 posted on 04/11/2014 6:44:15 AM PDT by xzins ( Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for victory!)
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To: xzins

Its a chance to attack normal working Americans.

They must be destroyed for the ‘revolution’ to succeed.


3 posted on 04/11/2014 6:48:37 AM PDT by LucianOfSamasota (Tanstaafl - its not just for breakfast anymore...)
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To: xzins

‘Just part of a grander plan to control the food supply. First the EPA is persecuting people who have holding ponds on their land stating that they are not allowed to collect rainwater and now this


4 posted on 04/11/2014 6:50:15 AM PDT by freeangel ( (free speech is only good until someone else doesn't like it)
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To: xzins
BLM, which oversees public land in the United States, claims this land never belonged to Texas.

Oh...so NOW...the land doesn't belong to Texas. Not a hundred years ago, not 75 years ago, not 50 years ago. But NOW.

These people are just BEGGING for another civil war. By God they just may get what they want.

They will lose.

5 posted on 04/11/2014 6:50:49 AM PDT by unixfox (Abolish Slavery, Repeal the 16th Amendment)
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To: xzins

Ruby Ridge Pt. III

Engineered to draw attention away from Obama’s long string of boondoggles and failures.

Obama may get pushed around by Putin but he will show the world the federal government can still push defenceless American Citizens around.


6 posted on 04/11/2014 6:55:19 AM PDT by Iron Munro (The future ain't what it use to be -- Yogi Berra)
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To: LucianOfSamasota

In order to for the powder keg to go off, someone has to light to fuse. They need to keep pushing till they reach that critical mass. People are slowing starting to wake up and openingly question government: Connecticut, New York, Nevada and now this makes its way into the open.

I seriously believe there is a purpose to this, and lines will need to be drawn in the sand.


7 posted on 04/11/2014 6:55:55 AM PDT by voicereason (The RNC is like the "One-night stand" you wish you could forget.)
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To: xzins

Were they squating, like you know who said, defending the BLM on the Bundy attack?


8 posted on 04/11/2014 6:59:10 AM PDT by crz
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To: crz

Sounds like the BLM thinks so.

Sounds like the BLM is in the land taking business.


9 posted on 04/11/2014 7:02:35 AM PDT by xzins ( Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for victory!)
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To: xzins

Is there oil on that land...read something about that really being the issue in Nevada.


10 posted on 04/11/2014 7:06:04 AM PDT by goodnesswins (R.I.P. Doherty, Smith, Stevens, Woods.)
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To: xzins

We should just merge all 57 states into one: 0bamaville.


11 posted on 04/11/2014 7:11:10 AM PDT by clintonh8r (Don't give up! The liberals are buggering and aborting themselves into extinction.)
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To: xzins

I don’t get it. Even if the land is now Oklahoma and not Texas, why doesn’t he simply own land in Oklahoma? How does it suddenly become BLM land?


12 posted on 04/11/2014 7:12:06 AM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus

It doesn’t help matters that the author doesn’t know a thing about geology. Accretion is the opposite of erosion.


13 posted on 04/11/2014 7:13:46 AM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus
How does it suddenly become BLM land?

Same here. Seems like it would go to either the guy on one side of the river or the guy on the other side of the river....but somehow BLM thinks it goes to them. And a flippin' court AGREED with them in at least one case.

Which just goes to prove: the deck's stacked.

14 posted on 04/11/2014 7:16:24 AM PDT by xzins ( Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for victory!)
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To: voicereason

I wouldn’t think they’d want to divide their efforts, but on the other hand, they may be seeking to divide the response of the Oathkeepers, etc.


15 posted on 04/11/2014 7:18:14 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: xzins

I don’t know how the court reached that verdict. Iowa has a little plot of land west of the Missouri River. The river moved east, but the Iowans didn’t, so it stayed part of Iowa.


16 posted on 04/11/2014 7:19:16 AM PDT by VanShuyten ("a shadow...draped nobly in the folds of a gorgeous eloquence.")
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To: VanShuyten

And, iirc, the court told Kentucky that the Ohio shore of the Ohio River is Ohio even if the river does move.


17 posted on 04/11/2014 7:24:19 AM PDT by xzins ( Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for victory!)
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To: dangus

What it does do is give the Fed what they think is “ownership” of the actual shoreline for 116 miles on one side or the other. Since water is the issue in dry times, they will control ACCESS to the water. You gotta go through what they see as their land to get to the water.

And, rest assured, since the movement of rivers is a geologic phenomenon that takes place everywhere, if they get away with it here, they will do it everywhere.

And suddenly access land to even get to water will belong to the Fed in all of America.

Rivers, creeks, streams, lakes, springs.

You name it.


18 posted on 04/11/2014 7:35:40 AM PDT by xzins ( Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for victory!)
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To: Iron Munro

Um, no. He ain’t pushing defenseless Texans around. We can defend ourselves. I guarantee it.


19 posted on 04/11/2014 7:43:22 AM PDT by BuckeyeTexan (There are those that break and bend. I'm the other kind. ~Steve Earle)
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To: lonevoice

ping!


20 posted on 04/11/2014 7:54:04 AM PDT by Pride in the USA
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To: lonevoice

ping!


21 posted on 04/11/2014 7:54:14 AM PDT by Pride in the USA
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To: dangus

Exactly. It’s either part of Texas or part of Oklahoma, it is not part of the BLM.

River movements happen all the time on state boundaries and they are worked out by the courts. I know this because Iowa has three rivers that form it’s boundaries and they have won court cases when the river shifted.

What legal right does the BLM have if there is no federal lands in question here?


22 posted on 04/11/2014 8:04:01 AM PDT by Free Vulcan (Vote Republican! You can vote Democrat when you're dead...)
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To: xzins

“How can BLM come in and say, “Hey, this isn’t yours.”

Easy they come in with heavily armed goons and say “hey this isn’t yours”.


23 posted on 04/11/2014 8:04:05 AM PDT by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose o f a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: MrB
I wouldn’t think they’d want to divide their efforts, but on the other hand, they may be seeking to divide the response of the Oathkeepers, etc.

Having a lot of "smaller" issues makes it harder for the people focus on them, and pull themselves away from the Idiot Box (TV) and their favorite show.

Having a major event, would cause a lot more people to sit up and possibly rally. Just look at the overwhelming sense of unity that happened on 9/11. It take a week or so for some to resort back to their brain dead ways, but I'm sure they'd probably prefer to not any sense of unity at all.

Also, smaller events are easier to make it seem like it is just a fringe element.

24 posted on 04/11/2014 8:28:08 AM PDT by voicereason (The RNC is like the "One-night stand" you wish you could forget.)
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To: Free Vulcan
"Exactly. It’s either part of Texas or part of Oklahoma, it is not part of the BLM."

I'm guessing that the feds claim the shore line of any navigable body of water. And once claimed they do not give up the claim even if the shore line moves. Below is the money quote from the article.

"Originally, here the river was out there where it is now and it eroded and accreted up to here, and then it eroded and accreted back. Well, their interpretation is that it eroded up to here but avulsed back. So when you listen to them it is always erosion to the south because the property line follows it then, but it’s always avulsion when it goes north. So the boundary can move south but it can never move back north," said Henderson."

25 posted on 04/11/2014 8:31:22 AM PDT by jpsb (Believe nothing until it has been officially denied)
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To: jpsb

I know Iowa is bordered by the Missouri, Missisippi, and Des Moines. The Army Core of Engineers is in charge of the lock and dam systems, and barge navigation, but the states own the territory.

Sounds like the BLM is doing is making a claim on some 30 year old court case, not an Act of Congress or any law passed thereby. Their mission is not the land acquisition business, it’s the land management business. They are beyond their mission: rogue, lawless, predatory, and terroristic. However, I’m sure the courts will side with them.


26 posted on 04/11/2014 9:00:15 AM PDT by Free Vulcan (Vote Republican! You can vote Democrat when you're dead...)
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To: xzins

They actively want Middle Americans to kill other Middle Americans.


27 posted on 04/11/2014 9:14:24 AM PDT by TBP (Obama lies, Granny dies.)
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To: Free Vulcan

Well perhaps someone can explain on what basis the BLM is claiming the land. I took my best shot, sadly it appears I was off target. lol


28 posted on 04/11/2014 9:18:26 AM PDT by jpsb (Believe nothing until it has been officially denied)
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To: jpsb

I think you’re right. Rivers are already public, but they want to control the land access to rivers....water.

Interesting

Another possibility is that they just want to take what they think they can get away with taking.


29 posted on 04/11/2014 9:22:39 AM PDT by xzins ( Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for victory!)
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To: TBP

They would love a crisis


30 posted on 04/11/2014 9:29:50 AM PDT by xzins ( Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for victory!)
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To: xzins

Yes, then they could crack down. The bottom-up, top-down strategy.


31 posted on 04/11/2014 9:39:08 AM PDT by TBP (Obama lies, Granny dies.)
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To: xzins

Both of your eyes are wide open! Not many see the truth for what it is.


32 posted on 04/11/2014 10:09:16 AM PDT by B4Ranch (Name your illness, do a Google & YouTube search with "hydrogen peroxide". Do it and be surprised.)
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To: All

This has been a problem on the Mississippi forever. There are islands that jump from one state to the other as the current changes.

But this is the first time that I know of that the BLM is involved. The feds’ involvement is all part of Agenda 21.


33 posted on 04/11/2014 10:41:53 AM PDT by VerySadAmerican
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To: Pride in the USA

The BLM is poking a bear when they mess with Texas.


34 posted on 04/11/2014 10:44:21 AM PDT by lonevoice (We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality)
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To: BuckeyeTexan
We can defend ourselves. I guarantee it.

They have Abrams tanks and Apache helicopters and aren't afraid to use them against citizens.

Think about Waco.


35 posted on 04/11/2014 7:29:23 PM PDT by Iron Munro (The future ain't what it use to be -- Yogi Berra)
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To: xzins

“Don’t Mess With Texas!”


36 posted on 04/21/2014 2:19:37 PM PDT by Don Corleone ("Oil the gun..eat the cannoli. Take it to the Mattress.")
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To: xzins

What goes with BLM is that the Chicoms are now calling in all the debt money that Obama and his minions/enablers were able to draw on to become millionaires. These Chinese entrepreneurs are very anxious to get land in the USA and there are plenty of so called citizens willing to shill for them. There needs to be a very deep look at the likes of Las Vegas money people who some like Addelson are willing to sell out the USA. This story is like an iceberg.


37 posted on 04/21/2014 4:44:18 PM PDT by noinfringers2
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