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General and Former Defense Official Urge Nonlethal Military Aid for Ukraine
NYT ^ | APRIL 15, 2014 | MICHAEL R. GORDON

Posted on 04/16/2014 9:30:57 AM PDT by Zhang Fei

WASHINGTON — Ukraine’s military has an urgent need for nonlethal military assistance like body armor, night-vision goggles, communications gear and aviation fuel to defend against a potential Russian attack, according to a new analysis by a former NATO commander and a former Pentagon official.

But wary of provoking Russia, the Obama administration has been reluctant to provide it, they say.

(snip)

The new interim government in Ukraine submitted a request to NATO nations last month for military assistance, including vehicles, mine-clearing equipment, communications gear, medical supplies, fuel and the sharing of intelligence. The United States has sent 300,000 M.R.E. — meals ready to eat — rations to Ukraine’s forces, but the Obama administration has made it clear that it is not planning to send weapons or other forms of so-called lethal aid for fear of provoking Russia.

NATO has also moved cautiously. Ukraine’s foreign minister recently said a NATO team would assess his nation’s military needs, but some Western officials say the alliance is unlikely to provide much assistance until a new president is elected on May 25 and the East-West crisis over Ukraine eases.

(snip)

The Obama administration has been relying heavily on the threat of stepped-up economic sanctions to dissuade the Russians from invading eastern Ukraine and has rebuffed proposals from Senator John McCain that the United States provide light weapons to the Ukrainian military as too risky.

“We do not see a military solution to this crisis,” Jay Carney, the White House spokesman, said Tuesday.

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Extended News; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; Russia
KEYWORDS: putin; russia; ukraine
When the Ukrainians put up a fight, Obama will be dragged kicking and screaming to provide aid. But not until then. If Ukraine's leaders behave as meekly as Edward Benes, Ukraine's fate will be like Czechoslovakia's before the Nazi juggernaut.
1 posted on 04/16/2014 9:30:57 AM PDT by Zhang Fei
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To: Zhang Fei
Send in the "advisers."

That's the ticket.

2 posted on 04/16/2014 9:33:20 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum ("The best way to control opposition is to lead it ourselves." -- Vladimir Ilyich Lenin)
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To: Zhang Fei

“If Ukraine’s leaders behave as meekly as Edward Benes, Ukraine’s fate will be like Czechoslovakia’s”

The “Leaders” (Svoboda/Right Sector) are screaming for blood, but the people they are telling to do the killing don’t want any part of it.

They are told that they are being sent to fight “Russian Infiltrators”, and are encountering old ladies and crowds of civilians instead, with a few armed militants thrown in.

As soon as the Right Sector grabbed power, anyone with any knowledge of the area knew the Donetsk Basin area was going to have a problem with it.


3 posted on 04/16/2014 9:39:57 AM PDT by tcrlaf (Well, it is what the Sheeple voted for....)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

What could go wrong?


4 posted on 04/16/2014 9:40:25 AM PDT by Romulus
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To: tcrlaf
“If Ukraine’s leaders behave as meekly as Edward Benes, Ukraine’s fate will be like Czechoslovakia’s”

Be fair, Benes didn't have much say, England and France basically pushed him out of the way in Munich.

5 posted on 04/16/2014 9:41:17 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
Send in the "advisers."

And then send in a few "defensive" combat troops to protect the advisers. And then establish a base for the combat troops. And then wait for an incident.

After all, what could go wrong?

6 posted on 04/16/2014 9:41:46 AM PDT by Leaning Right (Why am I holding this lantern? I am looking for the next Reagan.)
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To: Zhang Fei

“Ukraine’s military has an urgent need for nonlethal military assistance like body armor, night-vision goggles, communications gear and aviation fuel”

Every day more and more Ukrainian military defect to the pro-Russian insurgents. So they will only say - “Thank you very much Uncle Sam”, coz all that stuff will eventually get in their hands.


7 posted on 04/16/2014 9:46:44 AM PDT by Altenkrug
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To: Zhang Fei

What is non-lethal aid? More sling-shots?

I noticed the people defending their homeland were using slingshots and the Russkies automatic weapons.


8 posted on 04/16/2014 9:56:17 AM PDT by jayrunner
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To: Zhang Fei

Send Feng Shui kits quick!


9 posted on 04/16/2014 9:58:56 AM PDT by Uncle Miltie (Mohammed was a Child Rapist and Islam is a Totalitarian Death Cult.)
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To: dfwgator
Be fair, Benes didn't have much say, England and France basically pushed him out of the way in Munich.

Benes had an army to do his talking for him. He didn't have to involve Britain and France. Historians blame Britain and France, but it was a weak-kneed Benes that allowed them to dictate terms. Czechoslovakia had a pre-war population of 15m (triple Switzerland's) and a thriving arms industry. Note that the Swiss did not ask Britain and France for their opinion about whether to submit to Germany. Czechoslovakia had hundreds of thousands of Jews who could probably have been relied on to fight to the death. It could have declared itself a sanctuary for Jews, contingent on military service by a male member of the family. Bottom line is that Benes wimped out, and the nation suffered the consequences.

10 posted on 04/16/2014 10:02:06 AM PDT by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
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To: Zhang Fei

The West does not have the will to actually act in Ukraine’s defense.

We should just send that aid to Russia and call it a day.


11 posted on 04/16/2014 10:30:57 AM PDT by Noamie
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To: Zhang Fei

The Ukrainians started this mess. Let them clean it up. No US involvement. Period.


12 posted on 04/16/2014 10:33:08 AM PDT by McGruff
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To: Zhang Fei

Non lethal military aid......does that mean we’ll send pea-shooters or bb guns? Not America’s finest hour. Yet if it were an African country being invaded you can bet we’d be sending military aid as we are currently doing.


13 posted on 04/16/2014 10:42:14 AM PDT by kenmcg
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To: Zhang Fei

“Benes had an army to do his talking for him.”

And one of the most heavily-defensible lines in the world, the “Benes Wall”, high up in the mountains.

What they didn’t have was a good lowlands defense, or the ability to keep German Aircraft from flattening the cities.

There was also severe ethnic internal strife, a collapsing economy, and the government was on the verge of complete bankruptcy.

There was a LOT more going on in Czechoslovakia than just “Hitler wanted it”.


14 posted on 04/16/2014 10:45:07 AM PDT by tcrlaf (Well, it is what the Sheeple voted for....)
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To: Zhang Fei

Leave it up to Obama and he’ll send in 3,000,000 gay sex instructional videos, 30,000,000 condoms and 5 million gallons of lube.


15 posted on 04/16/2014 10:47:58 AM PDT by Cementjungle
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To: Zhang Fei
General and Former Defense Official Urge Nonlethal Military Aid for Ukraine

As Zell Miller said, the dems would arm us with spitwads. So would we be sending them some of our used spitwads. perhaps from 0bama's "frillypants" brigades?

16 posted on 04/16/2014 10:48:32 AM PDT by The Sons of Liberty (Who but a TYRANT shoves down another man's throat what he has exempted himself from?)
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To: Zhang Fei

Military industrial complex finds another way to bankrupt America. China can you spare a dime?


17 posted on 04/16/2014 10:51:08 AM PDT by ex-snook (God forgives and forgets.)
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To: Zhang Fei

“NONLETHAL MILITARY” IS AN OXYMORON

Webster defines military as “pertaining to war’

War is lethal

someone doesn`t know English language word meanings

must be a KenyanAhol.


18 posted on 04/16/2014 10:53:43 AM PDT by bunkerhill7 ("The Second Amendment has no limits on firepower"-NY State Senator Kathleen A. Marchione.")
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To: ex-snook
Military industrial complex finds another way to bankrupt America. China can you spare a dime?

Actually, it's the civilian welfare industrial complex that's doing so. Civilian spending accounts for 5 out of every 6 dollars spent by the federal government, and that's moving ever higher, thanks to the government's open door policy towards both legal and illegal immigrants, who take more welfare benefits than they contribute in taxes.

19 posted on 04/16/2014 10:55:22 AM PDT by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
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To: The Sons of Liberty
As Zell Miller said, the dems would arm us with spitwads. So would we be sending them some of our used spitwads. perhaps from 0bama's "frillypants" brigades?

Given the lousy performance of the Ukrainian government to date, I'd be leery of handing them anything other than non-lethal aid. They have plenty of weaponry for what they've encountered to date. What they need is some semblance of organization and planning. There's also the question of how much of this bumbling is the result of incompetence, and how much is the result of bribery (by Putin) or corruption (theft of state resources). Compare this to-ing and fro-ing with the crispness with which the Slovenes achieved their military objectives.

20 posted on 04/16/2014 11:03:14 AM PDT by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
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To: Zhang Fei

Sounds like you want to cut spending on Americans with no problem with spending for the world. Nah.


21 posted on 04/16/2014 11:15:19 AM PDT by ex-snook (God forgives and forgets.)
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To: Zhang Fei

If the Ukraine government cannot even command the loyalty of its troops, it has a diminished claim to being a sovereign state. They should perhaps come to some accommodation with the

It’s Russian ethnics do not appear to want rule from Kiev, and we/NATO cannot force them to be. This is part of the Russian sphere unlike Czech lands which were Kingdom of Bohemia since before Charlemagne and then Austro-Hungarian Empire, never a part of “Germany”. Ukraine was part of Russian Empire since Charlemagne, more or less..


22 posted on 04/16/2014 11:23:16 AM PDT by RitchieAprile
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To: ex-snook
Sounds like you want to cut spending on Americans with no problem with spending for the world. Nah.

Our priorities are different. You want to continue spending 5 out of every 6 dollars in the federal budget on able-bodied leeches. I'd like to see the budget revert to a more traditional stance - where most of that 1 dollar on defense is maintained, and the remaining 5 dollars is shrunk drastically.

23 posted on 04/16/2014 11:30:23 AM PDT by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
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To: ex-snook
Sounds like you want to cut spending on Americans with no problem with spending for the world. Nah.

Besides, you're changing the subject - 5 out of every 6 federal budget dollars are spent on civilian expenditures, mainly on welfare programs, but in your mind, it's defense that's causing the budget deficits. If we zeroed out the defense budget, the annual deficit would have been $200b.

24 posted on 04/16/2014 11:39:41 AM PDT by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
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To: Zhang Fei

Give them advanced crowd dispersion equipment, (ultrasounds etc.) Russian tactic is as follows: move in 2-3 dozens of armed “pro-Russians”, surround them with a few hundred civilians, commie grandpas, drunk thugs etc. and wait... If Ukrainians open fire, there’s a pretext for a full scale invasion (to “protect civilians”) If they don’t, repeat it in another town. Once civilians are chased out non-leathally, full ahead, kill any armed “pro-Russian” fecker.


25 posted on 04/16/2014 11:59:43 AM PDT by Grzegorz 246
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To: Zhang Fei
"Bottom line is that Benes wimped out, and the nation suffered the consequences."

Was that the Czech Republic or Slovakia Benes was representing? Czechoslovakia was a shotgun wedding of a nation from the start created in the aftermath of WWI just like the current Ukraine is a shotgun wedding of a nation created in the wake of the Cold War.

You do know that when they could do as they damn well pleased Czechoslovakia became two countries, don't you?

If Benes was the problem, then by extension the losers who are now pretending to run the Ukraine are the problem. So, the solution is have Americans fight to support obvious losers who have good intentions?

Oh, I forgot, you assert that people who can say, "been there, done that", are unqualified to consider such matters.

What's wrong with a Ukraine and a, I dunno, what would they call themselves, Donbas is the region?, so the nation of Donbas as two separate countries?

Can countries decide their own fate without being bombed into agreeing with the European elites who run the EU and NATO?

Is self-determination only for puppets of or members of the EU and/or NATO or is it for everyone?

Why is it good when NATO, US, or UN, troops impose a government on a sovereign nation but not good when a sovereign nation decides to have a tidy and fairly bloodless little Civil War of sorts to work out their own problems?

Why are operatives from the EU and NATO being in the Ukraine no big deal but Russian ones being there just horrible? I mean, sending troops is pretty much sending operatives, no? (and if there aren't US/NATO people on the ground there already it'll be a break from the norm)

Say the US and NATO ride to the aide of the Ukraine and it's like Hungary in '56 but with us on the receiving end, would that be "proof" that evil Russians are resisting us or would it just be proof that Ukrainians want to settle their own problems their own way without the EU, NATO, the US, or anyone else with no "ethnic" stake in the matter mucking around in their business?

And while I think of it, what's to keep aid to the Ukraine from leading to the same sort of thing that freedom fighters in Syria are doing where, with stomachs full of US MREs and US supplied arms and ammunition, Mooze Lames are butchering whole towns full of men, women, and children?

US advisers? The innate kindness of the Ukrainian people who didn't bat an eye at Nazi atrocities during WWII? Or, is it that as long as "ethnic Russians" are on the receiving end it's no big deal just like it was no big deal as long as Jews were on the receiving end? You know, nipping the risks to Ukrainian security in the bud. The kind of thing "disarming ethnic Russians" implies.

26 posted on 04/16/2014 12:03:32 PM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: Rashputin
If Benes was the problem, then by extension the losers who are now pretending to run the Ukraine are the problem. So, the solution is have Americans fight to support obvious losers who have good intentions?

The topic in this thread is whether it makes sense to send nonlethal aid. If the Ukrainian government were semi-organized, not obviously bought by Putin and not inclined to surrender, then probably. Given that the government is not obviously any of the above, the odds are good that any aid sent is a gift to Russia or to the numbered accounts of the Ukrainian leadership. Besides, there's no actual war going going on. The Ukrainian army don't actually need anything right now. If any fighting begins, there'll be plenty of time to supply them. The Afghans started their insurgency with muzzle-loading 19th century rifles. Ukrainians should have plenty of time to bleed the Russians if they invade.

27 posted on 04/16/2014 12:10:58 PM PDT by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
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To: Zhang Fei

Oh, so the answers to my questions aren’t in the little notebook you work from. Gotcha.


28 posted on 04/16/2014 12:20:10 PM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: Rashputin
Oh, so the answers to my questions aren’t in the little notebook you work from. Gotcha.

I thought I answered your observation in a previous post. Your contention seems to be that countries with weak leaders deserve to be annexed by countries with strong leaders. I disagreed.

29 posted on 04/16/2014 12:28:28 PM PDT by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
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To: Rashputin
You are right, pre-WW2 Czechoslovakia had big internal problems, Adolf had been fueling them up for years, to the point that he broke up a country and next took control of the whole territory. Putin has been using the same tactic in case of Ukraine.
30 posted on 04/16/2014 12:42:21 PM PDT by Grzegorz 246
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To: Zhang Fei
Now, no, you ignored all my questions except the one that you chose to focus on in order to repeat what you've said dozens of times already.

To dispel your mischaracterization of my views, though, I'll answer your gross mischaracterization.

Imposed amalgamations that won't defend themselves deserve whatever they get when they won't defend themselves. They don't deserve a defense by other nations not threatened by a particular outcome. If the EU or Poland want to send men to defend the Ukraine, they should start soon. Time is a wastin'.

If the countries you hypothesize "should be taken over by Germany because they had weak leaders" are amalgamations that won't defend themselves, so be it. If they are in fact sovereign nations full of people who identify themselves as citizens of said sovereign nation they'll defend themselves and they have the right to determine their own internal affairs without others coming to their "aid" when the real problem is internal with a propaganda icing of "external threat" on it.

Now answer the questions. Start with my question about what's to keep the Ukraine from Ukraine collapsing into butchering one another along ethnic or other lines as soon as an outside force provides them the cover to do so. There's nothing in their history that leads anyone to believe they're not more than happy to slaughter one another and yet, your comments make the point that they should be segregated along ethnic lines as soon as possible and that people who intermarry with "ethnic Russians" are a threat to the State.

So, SOP would seem to be ethnic segregating leading to, what? Is that equal treatment under the law? What law, the eugenics laws that pass out citizenship rights based on who you marry and who your parents were? Where have we heard that one before and how did Ukrainians side with the nation that promoted that worldview?

Obvious evasions, changes of subject, and ignoring the questions, all lead to a single conclusion about the nature of a given poster as do comments such posters make that clearly show reality is not first and foremost among their concerns.

have a nice day now, ya' hear

31 posted on 04/16/2014 1:00:43 PM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: Zhang Fei

Obastard would rather fight the Russians by throwing pancakes at them.


32 posted on 04/16/2014 1:05:39 PM PDT by Cyber Liberty (H.L. Mencken: "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.")
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To: Rashputin
Now answer the questions. Start with my question about what's to keep the Ukraine from Ukraine collapsing into butchering one another along ethnic or other lines as soon as an outside force provides them the cover to do so. There's nothing in their history that leads anyone to believe they're not more than happy to slaughter one another and yet, your comments make the point that they should be segregated along ethnic lines as soon as possible and that people who intermarry with "ethnic Russians" are a threat to the State. So, SOP would seem to be ethnic segregating leading to, what? Is that equal treatment under the law? What law, the eugenics laws that pass out citizenship rights based on who you marry and who your parents were? Where have we heard that one before and how did Ukrainians side with the nation that promoted that worldview? Obvious evasions, changes of subject, and ignoring the questions, all lead to a single conclusion about the nature of a given poster as do comments such posters make that clearly show reality is not first and foremost among their concerns. have a nice day now, ya' hear

I'm not sure what the bit about segregation comes from. In a wartime situation, potential enemy aliens - especially those in senior government positions - need to be vetted for their loyalty to the state. During WWII, this meant the internment of Japanese citizens along with small numbers of German and Italian nationals. It occurred all over the world, not just in the US, and remains standard practice in most countries. That is why you will not find Arabs in make-or-break government positions in Israel, just as you won't find Muslims in equivalent positions in India.

For a more recent example, it is empirical fact that Slovenes, Croats and Bosnians defected to their ethnic groups' respective Territorial Defense units within days of the Wars of Partition. For Ukraine's government to not consider the possibility of treachery from within would be foolhardy in the extreme.

33 posted on 04/16/2014 1:13:56 PM PDT by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
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To: Grzegorz 246
I think Putin got what he wanted and has been playing the opportunist ever since. I doubt he really cares whether the gets the Eastern Ukraine into Russia now or it returns to Russian decades from now.

His concerns were with Russian vital interests in the Crimea being held hostage by blue helmets or NATO and he solved that problem Beyond that, well, nature abhors a vacuum and a vacuum installed itself in the Ukraine so it won't be long before the Turks are demanding a chunk of the Ukraine and who knows who else.

34 posted on 04/16/2014 2:45:21 PM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: Zhang Fei
So now the internment of Japanese in WWII is a suitable comparison with the current Ukraine?

Oh, Pleeeezzzze, no one in their right mind buys that and anyone selling it is either a half-wit or a dedicated propagandist with no regard for the facts.

For starters, what percentage of the Ukraine is "ethnic Russian", a threat to the State for having married an "ethnic Russian", or the next door neighbor of an "ethnic Russian" and therefore a potential sympathizer?

That dog that won't hunt and it's nothing but a lame attempt disguise the initial steps toward the goal of expelling all "ethnic Russians" from the Ukraine exactly like the Nazi wannabes are demanding. Not that I"m the least bit surprised at the lame attempt to disguise the real goal which is implementing the "final solution" to the "ethnic Russian" problem.

As I've said before, I'm 100% behind diverting all military aid of any kind from all Muslim states and sending it to the Ukraine. How the current "government" could manage to hang on to any of it with units defecting or deserting one after another I don't know, but that's the extent of what this country should do and only if it's actually diverted from what is now going to Iz Lame ists.

Not that Ukraine "deserves" such support, just that it's a lesser waste of tax money than passing it out to Mooze Lame scum and we can eventually buy it back for next to nothing instead of having it distributed as jihadists see fit.

35 posted on 04/16/2014 3:18:44 PM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: Rashputin
That dog that won't hunt and it's nothing but a lame attempt disguise the initial steps toward the goal of expelling all "ethnic Russians" from the Ukraine exactly like the Nazi wannabes are demanding. Not that I"m the least bit surprised at the lame attempt to disguise the real goal which is implementing the "final solution" to the "ethnic Russian" problem.

The Final Solution involved exterminating the Jewish population. This is not the kind of Final Solution that was imposed by Russia on millions of Ukrainians via the Holodomor. Like it or not, internment in wartime is a standard treatment for potential enemy aliens. While the long term solution to Russian irredentism may be expulsion, just as Germans were expelled from Danzig, Konigsberg and the Sudetenland, it's not clear that Ukraine is anywhere near that point. Only time will tell.

36 posted on 04/16/2014 3:29:44 PM PDT by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
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To: Zhang Fei
So, expulsion of "ethnic Russians" being the possible "long term solution" to the "ethnic Russian problem" in the Ukraine, why should anyone help a "government" that does not represent the entire population of the Ukraine and is sympathetic to expelling a huge percentage of the population?

Why should the EU, the US, or anyone else lift a finger to help people who are infatuated with the idea of an ethnically pure State not unlike the State Nazi Germany envisioned for Germany?

Now about my original questions . . .

37 posted on 04/16/2014 5:42:36 PM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: Rashputin
So, expulsion of "ethnic Russians" being the possible "long term solution" to the "ethnic Russian problem" in the Ukraine, why should anyone help a "government" that does not represent the entire population of the Ukraine and is sympathetic to expelling a huge percentage of the population? Why should the EU, the US, or anyone else lift a finger to help people who are infatuated with the idea of an ethnically pure State not unlike the State Nazi Germany envisioned for Germany?

For the same reason that the Allies backed the expulsion of Germans from Danzig, Konigsberg and the Sudetenland - because they serve as a focal point for the irredentist ambitions of an imperialist power. The issue isn't that they're not Ukrainian - it's that they're used as an excuse for, and heavily back the territorial ambitions of an expansive power. The analogue of Nazi Germany in this situation is Russia, not Ukraine.

38 posted on 04/16/2014 6:08:41 PM PDT by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
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