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LUCAS: I hope I'm wrong but historians may look back and say this was the start of World War III
Daily Mail ^ | 04/15/2014 | Edward Lucas

Posted on 04/16/2014 9:54:36 AM PDT by Siegfried X

Edward Lucas: I hope I'm wrong but historians may look back and say this was the start of World War III

It is about brute power. It is about whether Putin’s Russia — a rogue state on Europe’s doorstep — can hold its neighbours to ­ransom, and whether we have the will to resist him. So far the answer to the first question is yes. And to the second a bleak no.

The Russian leader believes the collapse of the Soviet Union was a ‘geopolitical catastrophe’. He believes Russia was stripped of its empire by the West’s chicanery. And quite simply, he wants it back.

(Excerpt) Read more at dailymail.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; Russia
KEYWORDS: bho44; bhorussia; easternukraine; nato; obamaukraine; ukraine; ukrainecrisis; war; ww3; wwiii
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1 posted on 04/16/2014 9:54:36 AM PDT by Siegfried X
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To: Siegfried X

When I started getting REALLY concerned was when I realized they are moving past Crimea in to Ukraine. It’s like Crimea is Austria and Ukraine is Poland in WWII.


2 posted on 04/16/2014 9:57:44 AM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: Siegfried X

Refusing to recognize the lessons of history always leads to catastrophe.


3 posted on 04/16/2014 9:59:30 AM PDT by Don Corleone ("Oil the gun..eat the cannoli. Take it to the Mattress.")
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To: Siegfried X

Bullies take what they can until someone bloodies their nose.

Will anyone take a poke at Puti?

No.

Ukraine goes to Russia.

Who is next?


4 posted on 04/16/2014 10:05:21 AM PDT by Uncle Miltie (Mohammed was a Child Rapist and Islam is a Totalitarian Death Cult.)
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To: Siegfried X
'Or we can mount a last-ditch attempt to deter Russia from furthering its imperial ambitions'

If Russia has these grand imperial ambitions why did Putin wait until a Western backed coup over threw the government in Ukraine before "conquering" Crimea? Why did they not act before the Soros coup?

5 posted on 04/16/2014 10:06:03 AM PDT by Count of Monte Fisto (The foundation of modern society is the denial of reality.)
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To: Count of Monte Fisto

Putin waited until a liberal-backed coup overthrew the government in America.


6 posted on 04/16/2014 10:09:05 AM PDT by F15Eagle (1Jn4:15;5:4-5,11-13;Mt27:50-54;Mk15:33-34;Jn3:17-18,6:69,11:25,14:6,20:31;Ro10:8-11;1Tm2:5-6;Ti3:4-7)
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To: Siegfried X

More from the author of this article:

Meanwhile, our once ‘special ­relationship’ with America was tested by our ­failure to support Obama over intervention in Syria.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2605578/Edward-Lucas-I-hope-Im-wrong-historians-look-say-start-World-War-III.html#ixzz2z4PbJBne


7 posted on 04/16/2014 10:09:50 AM PDT by jimbo123
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To: Siegfried X
'Vladimir Putin is striking at the heart of the West'

In what nuthouse is the Ukraine "the heart of the West"?

8 posted on 04/16/2014 10:10:51 AM PDT by Jim Noble (When strong, avoid them. Attack their weaknesses. Emerge to their surprise.)
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To: Siegfried X
'Vladimir Putin is striking at the heart of the West'

In what nuthouse is the Ukraine "the heart of the West"?

9 posted on 04/16/2014 10:11:31 AM PDT by Jim Noble (When strong, avoid them. Attack their weaknesses. Emerge to their surprise.)
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To: Siegfried X

I disagree. For this to mean WW3, the west would need to actually DO something. Putin is playing this brilliantly. He’s put Ukraine in a box: stand by and allow me to slice off parts of your country as I choose, or resist and give me the excuse I need to invade. Either way the Ukes lose. Putin also knows Obama will do nothing (and I’m not saying he should, unless and until the Ukes defend themselves, why should anyone come to their aid?) and the Brits will do less than nothing if the US doesn’t. The Brits and French were pretty brave in Libya, content to let Obama lead from behind. That’s not about to happen again against a real-live military. US foreign policy is a joke. Putin neither respects nor fears Obama, he laughs after he hangs up the phone after an Obama call. After Putin finishes with Ukraine, all he needs to do is use the same script against Estonia, an actual NATO member, then stand and watch as NATO does nothing and winds up on the ash heap of history.


10 posted on 04/16/2014 10:13:11 AM PDT by wny
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To: Siegfried X

It appears at first glance that the majority if the people of Crimea and the whole Ukrane like being Russian and want to go back into the fold.

This is not Czechoslovakia or Poland This is more like Austria.


11 posted on 04/16/2014 10:13:26 AM PDT by Vaquero (Don't pick a fight with an old guy. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.)
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To: Jim Noble

In what nuthouse is the Ukraine “the heart of the West”?

*************

In Occupy Terra circles, the WORLD is the ‘heart of the West’.


12 posted on 04/16/2014 10:14:44 AM PDT by Psalm 144 (FIGHT! FIGHT! SEVERE CONSERVATIVE AND THE WILD RIGHT!)
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To: Siegfried X

WW3 was 1946-1991. It was called the Cold War,and America lost almost 100,000 fighting men and women in that era.

WW4 is the War on Terror, started 2001 through the present. It is global, and we have lost thousands in Iraq and Afghanistan, and thousands here in America.

WW5 is the number of the next global conflict.


13 posted on 04/16/2014 10:16:04 AM PDT by exit82 ("The Taliban is on the inside of the building" E. Nordstrom 10-10-12)
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To: Siegfried X
This will not be the start of WWIII because the West will simply walk away from Ukraine the way it walked away from Syria and Crimea. Obama will do nothing. There is no more American leadership since Obama took office and Europe would never do anything.

I'm not saying we should be all engaged, but at this point Putin knows he basically has free reign to do what he wants. He go slow and be somewhat gently in the process, but make no mistake, he do whatever he wants, and he'll get away with it.

14 posted on 04/16/2014 10:17:04 AM PDT by Obadiah (I like Krabby Patties.)
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To: Siegfried X

We have a very weak sister in soetoro’s acting at leadership regardless of how staunch an islamist he is. With political attrition from the top combined with the effects of a de-Christianized, homosexualized, civic affairs military, I am not convinced we can wield the combat capability we once could.


15 posted on 04/16/2014 10:17:29 AM PDT by onedoug
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To: Count of Monte Fisto

Jackals and hyenas wait until their prey is confused, wounded or dying.


16 posted on 04/16/2014 10:21:26 AM PDT by jagusafr (the American Trinity (Liberty, In G0D We Trust, E Pluribus Unum))
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To: Siegfried X

The comment made by Obama about flexibility makes me think his actions are all about aiding and abetting Putin, with a wink,wink,nod,nod about opposing him.

This is all kabuki theater, with Obama greasing the skids for Putin’s actions.

If we were really going to do something, we would have done it by now.

The whole notion that Obama is calling Putin by phone and reaming him a new one is fantasy. Obama is calling Putin and asking him if Obama is doing a good enough job.

And someone please tell that old fart from Arizona, Juan McCrazy, to sit down and STFU.

There is no end to his treachery against this country.


17 posted on 04/16/2014 10:22:56 AM PDT by exit82 ("The Taliban is on the inside of the building" E. Nordstrom 10-10-12)
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To: Uncle Miltie

I’ll be a monkey’s uncle if Kiev goes to Russia. If Russian-language oblasts don’t want to be part of the EUkraine, I’m not surprised. But Russia can’t politically or economically handle a restive Kiev, and Putin’s no fool.

With the United States toppling nation after nation under Obama (Egypt, Libya, Ukraine, etc.), I’m not pointing fingers at Putin.


18 posted on 04/16/2014 10:24:24 AM PDT by dangus
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To: Uncle Miltie

... and anyone who calls Donestk “the heart of the West” is a moron and a jackass.


19 posted on 04/16/2014 10:24:58 AM PDT by dangus
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To: Don Corleone

And one of the lessons of history is that every border conflict is not the Sudetenland. Call me back when Putin calls for the elimination of the Jewish race.


20 posted on 04/16/2014 10:26:32 AM PDT by dangus
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To: Siegfried X

Baraq won’t do anything about this.
He is too busy destroying our country from within to bother with events outside our borders.

And Putin knows that.


21 posted on 04/16/2014 10:27:07 AM PDT by Texas resident (The democrat party is now the CPUSA)
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To: Uncle Miltie
Ukraine goes to Russia. Who is next?

LIthuania- the Baltics, Poland, cuba, Argentina, Venezuela, Columbia, Arctic and maybe even Mexico. China gets Japan, the Pacific Rim and Panama, Chile and anything else it wants.

22 posted on 04/16/2014 10:31:17 AM PDT by Dick Vomer (democrats are like flies, whatever they don't eat they sh#t on.)
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To: Siegfried X

Don’t worry. Obama, the lightworker, is on the case. Red lines have been drawn and he has befriended all of Putin’s cabinet members on facebook.


23 posted on 04/16/2014 10:31:29 AM PDT by Organic Panic
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To: wny

“Putin also knows Obama will do nothing (and I’m not saying he should, unless and until the Ukes defend themselves, why should anyone come to their aid?”

Perhaps because we vowed to do exactly that if they agreed to give up their nukes?


24 posted on 04/16/2014 10:38:28 AM PDT by Beagle8U (Unions are an Affirmative Action program for Slackers! .)
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To: Siegfried X

It is rumored that Russia will start World War III. Many people had thought that it would start in the Middle East.

Hmmm.


25 posted on 04/16/2014 10:46:10 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Siegfried X

I posted this on another thread.

Why is this happening? (the Ukraine and Russia)

One reason!

Barrack Obama = Arthur Neville Chamberlain

They are both best known for their appeasement foreign policy.

Chamberlain’s empty suit policy ended in World War II.

Will Obama’s end in World War III?


26 posted on 04/16/2014 10:48:32 AM PDT by ThomasMore (Islam is the Whore of Babylon!)
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To: cuban leaf

“When I started getting REALLY concerned was when I realized they are moving past Crimea in to Ukraine.”

The whole of Ukraine was likely never part of the equation, but the Donetsk basin area always was. It is majority Russian, and supported the government that got overthrown.

The corruption, collapsing economy, and lawlessness of the last several years has hit the area hard, and they aren’t that far from a Russia that they see doing far better economically than they are.


27 posted on 04/16/2014 10:50:02 AM PDT by tcrlaf (Well, it is what the Sheeple voted for....)
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To: Don Corleone

History has to be taught with accuracy in order for it’s lessons to reveal themselves.


28 posted on 04/16/2014 10:50:05 AM PDT by 5thGenTexan
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To: Uncle Miltie
Who is next?

Possibly the Baltic states.

29 posted on 04/16/2014 10:51:47 AM PDT by Mark17 (Chicago Blackhawks: Stanley Cup champions 2010, 2013. Vietnam Vet 70-71 Msgt US Air Force, retired)
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To: cuban leaf

Part of the issue here is that Europe does not have a strong leader with a large, well-funded, efficient military standing by to keep the new-old soviets out of Europe as she did in WWII. The other part of this problem is that all of Europe is looking westward to us to keep the new-old soviets out of Europe and we don’t have that leader, either. This will not end well.


30 posted on 04/16/2014 10:59:30 AM PDT by ronnyquest (I spent 20 years in the Army fighting the enemies of liberty only to see marxism elected at home.)
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To: F15Eagle; Count of Monte Fisto
"Putin waited until a liberal-backed coup overthrew the government in America."

This. It bears repeating. Putin is no fool. He simply took the path of least resistance.

You ever play chess with a Russian? I have. I do not like to play chess with Russians; they are more patient than I am. Putin is playing chess, as someone recently asserted, and Obama...

Well, Obama is not even in the room.

31 posted on 04/16/2014 11:03:00 AM PDT by ronnyquest (I spent 20 years in the Army fighting the enemies of liberty only to see marxism elected at home.)
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To: Siegfried X

Let’s wait until Putin conquers France and bombs England. Until then it’s Europe’s war. In the meantime we can draft 10,000,000 soldiers, start Rosie the Riveter back in the factory, start rationing, bomb shelters, taxes, and prepare for war. Or we can get our head out of our arses and see that Putin’s actions are not going to lead us into WW III but part of Europe reorganizing itself. EU wants to expand and Russia is saying no and the EU wants us to bail them out.


32 posted on 04/16/2014 11:08:56 AM PDT by ex-snook (God forgives and forgets.)
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To: dangus
"... and anyone who calls Donestk “the heart of the West” is a moron and a jackass."

I'm pretty sure Putin meant that he is deliberately provoking us to see how we will respond to his actions. Since it is likely that Obama will do nothing, seeing as he is impotent, and the Ukrainians seem content not to offer resistance, I do not think it is a situation in which we need to be involved.

But, the whole of the world expects us to do something. I think they'd better get used to disappointment.

Besides, why would Obama oppose a fellow marxist?

33 posted on 04/16/2014 11:09:21 AM PDT by ronnyquest (I spent 20 years in the Army fighting the enemies of liberty only to see marxism elected at home.)
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To: Siegfried X

If reports are true, Ukraine is giving up military assets to gangs without a fight. Not the sign of a viable state.


34 posted on 04/16/2014 11:12:09 AM PDT by AU72
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To: Don Corleone
Refusing to recognize the lessons of history always leads to catastrophe

Catastrophe for whom? One lesson that could be learned from history is that when empires get too large, they collapse, both internally and externally. There is a lot of sentiment to get out from under the EU/globalists/banker/federal over-reach. Those Ukrainian soldiers saying "enough", those everyday people standing with Bundy, votes for freedom in parts of Europe, if that's what collapse looks like, it's a good thing.

Maybe the change that's coming is a good one. I look at Donetsk and say "go for it"....be independent; you stood on your own. I look at Bundy and his family and say "you stood up for all of us". I look at Venice and say "if you can be self-supporting, why shouldn't you be free?" I look at DC and see that it corrupts EVERYONE we send there.

A collapse of global and over-reaching national interests might be catastrophe for those who pull the strings and write the news, but it might be the best thing that could happen for us ordinary folks.

end of rant

35 posted on 04/16/2014 11:13:29 AM PDT by grania
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To: ronnyquest

I have an aunt who was English, but married my American uncle and became a citizen here almost 60 years ago. She has family in England, who are alarmed by Putin and have asked her what Obama is going to do.
She has told them, “nothing” but they don’t believe her.

I am less generous than she is. I would remind them that they wanted him as our president, so in future be careful what they wish for because they might get it.


36 posted on 04/16/2014 11:28:18 AM PDT by kalee
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To: Jim Noble

In what nuthouse is the Ukraine “the heart of the West”?


Pure comedy.


37 posted on 04/16/2014 11:55:40 AM PDT by Monmouth78
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To: F15Eagle

“Putin waited until a liberal-backed coup overthrew the government in America.”

There ya go. He can see what we see. He knows Obama is weak, that he is basically a lame duck and has at least 2 to 3 years to do as he pleases. He also can see a weak NATO. Is there any ally that truthfully trusts the USA these days. I would not. Putin knows our fiscal insanity and culture war waged by the Federal government is going to engulf us. He can see us delegitimizing our military by ousting generals and decreasing our strength. What other choice does Putin have. It is basically being handed to him on a silver platter. Is he capable of overreach? Yeah, but he hasn’t been around all these years by overreaching too far.


38 posted on 04/16/2014 12:11:10 PM PDT by taterjay
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To: cuban leaf

Yep, and the West does not have the will to do anything.


39 posted on 04/16/2014 12:16:30 PM PDT by Wicket (1 Peter 3:15 , Romans 5:5-8)
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To: ronnyquest

Marxist?

Putin...

...opposes abortion, which is down 83%
...instituted a low, flat tax
...opposes gay marriage and homosexuality
...decentralized agriculture, which went from 98% farm factories to 58% household plots (measured by output)
...routinely delivers stern condemnations against communism, statism and centralization of industry (rhetoric or not, the arguments get heard)
...decriminalized tax violations and removed taxing authorities from local officials

He may use strong-arm tactics; he may have not made enough reforms against corruption. But to call him a socialist, compared to America, is just silly.


40 posted on 04/16/2014 12:26:26 PM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus

Hope the Europeans enjoy learning Russian.

Here, we speak Spanish. /s


41 posted on 04/16/2014 12:32:51 PM PDT by JmyBryan
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To: Count of Monte Fisto
“If Russia has these grand imperial ambitions why did Putin wait until a Western backed coup over threw the government in Ukraine before “conquering” Crimea? Why did they not act before the Soros coup?”

LOL ! “Western backed coup” wouldn't have happened If Yanuk hadn't made 180 degree strategic change on the key issue without referendum. Russians have been planning all of that for years.

42 posted on 04/16/2014 1:12:30 PM PDT by Grzegorz 246
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To: Siegfried X
Putin says he has the right to intervene militarily anywhere in the old USSR where there are Russian speakers:

"Moscow ... has also announced its right to intervene militarily across the former Soviet Union to protect Russian speakers, a new doctrine that has overturned decades of post-Cold War diplomacy."

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/russia-putin-ukraine-civil/2014/04/16/id/565985/

43 posted on 04/16/2014 1:28:11 PM PDT by Siegfried X
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To: F15Eagle

Bingo. We’re just exerting our Flexibility™.


44 posted on 04/16/2014 1:31:14 PM PDT by Jane Long (While Marxists continue the fundamental transformation of the USA, progressive RINOs assist!)
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To: Siegfried X
It wouldn't be hard to keep Putin out of Ukraine, if that was what Obama wanted. I think he doesn't care, he just can't show he doesn't care.

You could start with huge amounts of military hardware. Enough so that the Ukrainians could inflict heavy damage to any invader. Send in some Marines to train the Ukrainians if they need help raising a substantial army. Encourage them to raise a militia so that every male over the age of 18 and under 60 is armed and ready to fight. Give them RPGs, SAMs, whatever they need to inflict a lot of damage on Russian invaders.

Then, go gangbusters on oil and natural gas production, and reserve a huge chunk for Europe and Ukraine. Work to bring the price of energy down by 25 percent or more. That will hit Russia where it hurts.

Then, resume missile defense operations in eastern Europe.

Then, position shiploads of equipment in Germany, Poland and our bases in the Persian gulf, making it clear that we can move quickly if necessary.

We don't have to fight, or threaten WW3, we just have to give the Ukrainians the ability to fight, and we need to inflict economic damage on the Russians. Obama is not doing anything to deter the Russians, nothing at all. Why wouldn't they take the rest of Ukraine?

45 posted on 04/16/2014 1:37:31 PM PDT by Defiant (Let the Tea Party win, and we will declare peace on the American people and go home.)
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To: Siegfried X
WOLVERINES!!
46 posted on 04/16/2014 1:39:03 PM PDT by RandallFlagg (Uninstall Fascist Firefox. Get Pale Moon.)
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To: Defiant
“You could start with huge amounts of military hardware.”

Not even that. Making it clear behind the scene that they will be hit really hard financially (mainly oil & gas issues) should do the trick.

“Obama is not doing anything to deter the Russians, nothing at all.”

Worse. He is drawing empty “red lines”, release “strongly worded statements” etc. Dude is really a new Chamberlain. Without that crap Ukrainians would just bow to the Kremlin and come back to business as usual (just like for the most of last +20 years) other countries in the neighborhood would keep a low profile increasing rapidly their military budgets at the same time. Now they think they have US backing when in fact there is nothing, totally nothing, just empty words. It is WW3 in the making. Perhaps this is “flexibility” he was talking about...

47 posted on 04/16/2014 3:48:33 PM PDT by Grzegorz 246
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To: ronnyquest

Seems to me that the EU is about as Marxist as Russia is, maybe more so.

Why is this our problem? Why is is our responsibility to defend Europe? They wouldn’t pee on us if we were on fire!

Furthermore, in case people haven’t noticed, the US is broke, the military is stretched to the limit, and after 11 years of conflict in Iraq and Afghanistan, the American people want an end to sending our men and women to die for the sake of politicians.

Also, it’s fairly obvious that the US does not tangle with countries that have nukes, or we would have taken out the nutball in North Korea a long time ago. The idea of US troops going to the Ukraine is beyond insane.


48 posted on 04/16/2014 4:57:56 PM PDT by Pining_4_TX (All those who were appointed to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48)
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To: Beagle8U

That may be so.....but they still haven’t lifted a finger in their own defense.


49 posted on 04/16/2014 5:44:54 PM PDT by wny
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To: Siegfried X

KGB Putin is a psychotic mass murderer and war criminal and the world’s biggest terrorist.


50 posted on 04/19/2014 12:27:39 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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