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Yes, IQ Really Matters
Slate ^ | 4/16/14 | David Z. Hambrick and Christopher Chabris

Posted on 04/18/2014 3:45:02 AM PDT by Altura Ct.

Critics of the SAT and other standardized testing are disregarding the data.

The College Board—the standardized testing behemoth that develops and administers the SAT and other tests—has redesigned its flagship product again. Beginning in spring 2016, the writing section will be optional, the reading section will no longer test “obscure” vocabulary words, and the math section will put more emphasis on solving problems with real-world relevance. Overall, as the College Board explains on its website, “The redesigned SAT will more closely reflect the real work of college and career, where a flexible command of evidence—whether found in text or graphic [sic]—is more important than ever.”

A number of pressures may be behind this redesign. Perhaps it’s competition from the ACT, or fear that unless the SAT is made to seem more relevant, more colleges will go the way of Wake Forest, Brandeis, and Sarah Lawrence and join the “test optional admissions movement,” which already boasts several hundred members. Or maybe it’s the wave of bad press that standardized testing, in general, has received over the past few years.

Critics of standardized testing are grabbing this opportunity to take their best shot at the SAT. They make two main arguments. The first is simply that a person’s SAT score is essentially meaningless—that it says nothing about whether that person will go on to succeed in college. Leon Botstein, president of Bard College and longtime standardized testing critic, wrote in Time that the SAT “needs to be abandoned and replaced,” and added:

(Excerpt) Read more at slate.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; US: California; US: Michigan
KEYWORDS: act; affirmativeaction; anymeansnecessary; bamn; bardcollege; blackkk; brandeis; california; collegeboard; commoncore; davidcoleman; leonbotstein; michigan; prop209; proposition209; quotas; racenorming; redistribution; reparations; sarahlawrence; sat; slate; wakeforest
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1 posted on 04/18/2014 3:45:02 AM PDT by Altura Ct.
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To: Altura Ct.

The SAT and ACT are essentially worthless.


2 posted on 04/18/2014 3:46:10 AM PDT by Timber Rattler (Just say NO! to RINOS and the GOP-E)
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To: Timber Rattler
What is your basis for that statement?

The SAT is a solid predictor of college success. Most of the critics think it's anti-egalitarian (which it is) and "racist" (which it isn't), disregarding the fact that it does pretty much what it's supposed to do.

I base my opinion on my and my daughter's very extensive experience (we went to the same high school that emphasizes SATs, about 30 yrs apart). I also used to rent from a lady that worked for ETS, but she was quite close mouthed about the whole thing. :-)

3 posted on 04/18/2014 3:52:31 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ecce Crucem Domini, fugite partes adversae. Vicit Leo de Tribu Iuda, Radix David, Alleluia!)
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To: Altura Ct.

They should just give a couple of yes no questions and be done with it.


4 posted on 04/18/2014 3:53:20 AM PDT by Altura Ct. (i)
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To: Altura Ct.
where a flexible command of evidence

What is that supposed to mean?

5 posted on 04/18/2014 3:53:59 AM PDT by Fzob (Jesus + anything = nothing, Jesus + nothing = everything)
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To: Altura Ct.

I hate to suggest this...but, if you took an average 7th grader and turned to give them this assignment:

1. Read the 100 best novels of all time.
2. Spend an entire year touring European historical sites.
3. Send them on a six month-long walk of Lewis and Clark’s trail, while reviewing an hour of basic physics each day.
4. Review the entire Civil War from 1776 onto the end of the war.

You’d likely have a better educated kid at age sixteen, than this cast of characters now completing four years of college.


6 posted on 04/18/2014 4:01:53 AM PDT by pepsionice
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To: pepsionice

I’ve learned a lot from watching Mysteries at the Museum on the Travel Channel. I think this kind of learning tool would work in teaching history.


7 posted on 04/18/2014 4:04:19 AM PDT by gattaca (The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left. Ecclesiastes10:2)
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To: Altura Ct.
The College Board... has redesigned its flagship product again...

SAT marries Common Core.

8 posted on 04/18/2014 4:12:03 AM PDT by C210N (When people fear government there is tyranny; when government fears people there is liberty)
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To: pepsionice
I'll add one more item to your list -- and in my opinion it should be the #1 item on the list. This would make for a good half-year course for the January-June period:

1. Spend one week working at each of the 20 largest employers in the county.

9 posted on 04/18/2014 4:17:31 AM PDT by Alberta's Child ("I've never seen such a conclave of minstrels in my life.")
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To: AnAmericanMother

You should understand, ma’am, that FR has its share of people who are high school drop-outs that resent those who graduated from college and those who are college graduates but who just get their jollies from denigrating commonly accepted knowledge. Timber Rattler sounds like one of the two.


10 posted on 04/18/2014 4:19:17 AM PDT by OldPossum ("It's" is the contraction of "it" and "is"; think about ITS implications.)
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To: Timber Rattler

In arguments with several of the self-proclaimed intelligentsia of the left it has become clear they are unable to do grade school math. No joke - a simple multiplication problem where you had to figure out from words what to put in a calculator was beyond their abilities.

So its no surprise they do not understand science, economics, etc. Yet to listen to them they will loudly tell you how much smarter they are then you and how you are wrong.


11 posted on 04/18/2014 4:21:33 AM PDT by Mechanicos (When did we amend the Constitution for a 2nd Federal Prohibition?)
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To: AnAmericanMother

I’ve taken and passed both the SAT and the GRE, and in neither case did each have any bearing whatsoever on my college and post-graduate success. I just busted my butt to pass them, and that was about it. Worthless.


12 posted on 04/18/2014 4:22:41 AM PDT by Timber Rattler (Just say NO! to RINOS and the GOP-E)
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To: OldPossum

My guess is that Timber Rattler is one of the latter since he is aware of the existence of the ACT and SAT.


13 posted on 04/18/2014 4:22:58 AM PDT by OldPossum ("It's" is the contraction of "it" and "is"; think about ITS implications.)
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To: OldPossum

a favorite phrase among workers on the job site or factory floor......”and I told that engineer....”


14 posted on 04/18/2014 4:24:41 AM PDT by bert ((K.E. N.P. N.C. +12 ..... History is a process, not an event)
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To: OldPossum
Timber Rattler sounds like one of the two.

Wrong. I've got a B.A., a B.S. and a M.A., and am doing quite well in my career.

The SAT, ACT, GRE, etc., are all worthless.

15 posted on 04/18/2014 4:25:17 AM PDT by Timber Rattler (Just say NO! to RINOS and the GOP-E)
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To: Timber Rattler

“I’ve taken and passed both the SAT and the GRE, and in neither case did each have any bearing whatsoever on my college and post-graduate success.”

There are no “passing grades” for the SAT and GRE. They are meant to show college or grad school aptitude. Not surprisingly those who score a 1600 do better than those who score 800.


16 posted on 04/18/2014 4:28:41 AM PDT by Brooklyn Attitude (Things are only going to get worse.)
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To: Altura Ct.
But we're all equal, right?
We all have the same IQ, right?
"What difference at this point does it make?"
17 posted on 04/18/2014 4:29:26 AM PDT by Amagi (Lenin: "Socialized Medicine is the Keystone to the Arch of the Socialist State.")
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To: Brooklyn Attitude
Not surprisingly those who score a 1600 do better than those who score 800.

That's not necessarily true. I've known 1600 scorers who washed out and also 800 or below scorers who did just fine.

The tests are subjective and only measure how well prospective college and grad students can take subjective tests.

18 posted on 04/18/2014 4:31:52 AM PDT by Timber Rattler (Just say NO! to RINOS and the GOP-E)
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To: AnAmericanMother

The problem here is that, for most jobs, a quality high school diploma is sufficient that a person with one has the basic skills to be able to join the workforce. However, for whatever reason, we’ve reduced what one would learn, when you compare a 1950’s high school diploma, so that a person has to go to college to learn what was once learned by grade 12.

If we could bring back the general standards of the 1950’s for a diploma, I think we would be better off.


19 posted on 04/18/2014 4:32:28 AM PDT by Jonty30 (What Islam and secularism have in common is that they are both death cults)
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To: Altura Ct.

Perhaps you should read the article rather than using the title as a springboard to comment. This is a great article, well researched and aptly presented. I really had to set aside my expectations of Slate. If this is the kind of balanced article they are presenting they are doing a excellent job of presenting the facts palatable to the audience or not.


20 posted on 04/18/2014 4:33:12 AM PDT by JayGalt
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To: Timber Rattler
The SAT and the ACT are essentially worthless

The old SAT testied analytic ability combined with comprehension of ones core knowledge. A good prepper could predict within 40 points either way how a student would do on each section at least 90% of the time. And it did tie in with college success in programs that dealt with those analytic skills. What's become less relevant is needing to have analytic skills to survive college in some areas of endeavor.

Students are given standardized testing so much now, starting in preschool, that these tests seem less relevant. The students fate has been pretty much determined by grade 6 or so. JMHO

21 posted on 04/18/2014 4:35:56 AM PDT by grania
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To: pepsionice

Maybe they would even learn that it wasn’t the civil war being fought in 1776.


22 posted on 04/18/2014 4:36:50 AM PDT by sipow
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To: Timber Rattler
I'll buy some of your argument, but I've known the 800 types and they were terrible students. I've known 34 ACT takers and while they weren't great students they got 3.0+GPAs and are doing well in the real world.

You're all missing the point. With grade inflation in high school, when all the little Johnnys get. 3.9-4.0, the only way for a college admissions team to differentiate students is to look at these standardized tests.

To suggest the tests are worthless is a bit of hyperbole.

23 posted on 04/18/2014 4:39:45 AM PDT by irish guard
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To: Altura Ct.

All this so that they don’t have to admit that most of the obama voters are stupid!


24 posted on 04/18/2014 4:42:15 AM PDT by I want the USA back (Media: completely irresponsible traitors. Complicit in the destruction of our country.)
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To: sipow

It was if you were British. We were “Rebels” to them.


25 posted on 04/18/2014 4:42:45 AM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: JayGalt

My first post was not a reply to the original poster but to those who just dismissed the predictive value of the SAT based on anecdotal evidence and didn’t read the article. Sorry about any confusing and thanks for posting the article.


26 posted on 04/18/2014 4:43:06 AM PDT by JayGalt
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To: Timber Rattler

“The tests are subjective and only measure how well prospective college and grad students can take subjective tests. “

What objective criteria can schools use to screen applicants?


27 posted on 04/18/2014 4:45:45 AM PDT by Prolixus (We feed; they breed.)
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To: Timber Rattler
The SAT and ACT are essentially worthless.

Early in my adult life I was a college admissions counselor. ACT and SAT scores were the single best predictor of college success, particularly in academic areas like mathematics, physics, chemistry and biology. Students with good board scores who showed evidence of having decent study skills were very likely to succeed in college.

For other areas like communications, sociology, anthropology, black studies and elementary education the board scores were less important. For those areas evidence of good study skills were the best predictor of success.

There were always exceptions, but students with lousy board scores and poor study habits had a low chance of success. (I have avoided the less polite ways of saying that.)

28 posted on 04/18/2014 4:46:02 AM PDT by Senator_Blutarski
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To: JayGalt
I agree with you, Jay. It's actually a very good article, and reinforces the point that tests like the SAT and ACT aren't perfect indicators of success, but do a pretty good job of measuring aptitude for higher education.
29 posted on 04/18/2014 4:46:14 AM PDT by Alberta's Child ("I've never seen such a conclave of minstrels in my life.")
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To: pepsionice
4. Review the entire Civil War from 1776 onto the end of the war.

Huh, I never knew the Civil War began that early.

30 posted on 04/18/2014 4:50:07 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Embrace the Lion of Judah and He will roar for you and teach you to roar too. See my page.)
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To: HiTech RedNeck

4. Review the entire Civil War from 1776 onto the end of the war.
Huh, I never knew the Civil War began that early.

Ah, a denier! (s)


31 posted on 04/18/2014 4:54:18 AM PDT by WinMod70
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To: WinMod70

I’m not up on the latest conspiracy. Forgive me.


32 posted on 04/18/2014 4:55:41 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Embrace the Lion of Judah and He will roar for you and teach you to roar too. See my page.)
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To: Altura Ct.

Regardless of test scores, if you have the ability to come up with the scratch some school somewhere will gladly take it.


33 posted on 04/18/2014 4:59:25 AM PDT by WinMod70
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To: Timber Rattler

That’s ridiculous. If you worked in finance, high tech, the sciences, or some other field where IQ really matters—which I’m guessing you don’t—you’d well know the correlation between such scores and intelligence.

Doesn’t mean people can’t and don’t do very well in life with more limited intelligence. In some ways, at some levels, limited intelligence can make life easier.

But it’s silly to claim there’s not a correlation between intelligence and these tests, and that for a number of situations high intelligence really matters.


34 posted on 04/18/2014 5:01:54 AM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: HiTech RedNeck

pepsionice prolly thinks it was the Japs that bombed Pearl Harbor...


35 posted on 04/18/2014 5:03:29 AM PDT by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: pepsionice

While reading 100 great works of literature is great advice I used a simpler method with my children. (2 girls, now in their early 30’s and both successful)
While they were in elementary and high school:
1) My wife and I both read to them as did their baby sitter
2) Encouraged them to read the works of Shakespeare
3) Regularly took them to museums here in NY and around the country when we travelled (They actually developed a love of museums)
4) Worked with them to do 5 extra math problems every school evening so that they would develop real skills in mathematics
None of these took money but did require my wife and me to be active parents


36 posted on 04/18/2014 5:04:54 AM PDT by ozdragon
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To: central_va

The North rose against the South in 1776. Yeah.


37 posted on 04/18/2014 5:05:46 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Embrace the Lion of Judah and He will roar for you and teach you to roar too. See my page.)
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To: ozdragon

Even understanding the Cliffs Notes version of most of these would be an improvement over knowing nothing.


38 posted on 04/18/2014 5:06:38 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Embrace the Lion of Judah and He will roar for you and teach you to roar too. See my page.)
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To: 9YearLurker

 

Estimate your IQ, using your SAT scoreStraight talk on it.

 For all SAT conversions, the chart below seems to work better than any other method. Two well known data points fit it - for George W. Bush and Al Gore (their details below the chart).

SAT I
V+M

IQ
15 SD

IQ
16 SD

%ile

 

SAT I
V+M

IQ
15 SD

IQ
16 SD

%ile

1600

152.18

155.65

99.975

 

1010

109.46

110.09

73.587

1590

151.45

154.88

99.970

 

1000

108.74

109.32

71.985

1580

150.73

154.11

99.964

 

990

108.01

108.55

70.338

1570

150.00

153.34

99.957

 

980

107.29

107.77

68.647

1560

149.28

152.57

99.949

 

970

106.56

107.00

66.916

1550

148.56

151.79

99.940

 

960

105.84

106.23

65.149

1540

147.83

151.02

99.929

 

950

105.12

105.46

63.347

1530

147.11

150.25

99.916

 

940

104.39

104.68

61.516

1520

146.38

149.48

99.901

 

930

103.67

103.91

59.659

1510

145.66

148.70

99.883

 

920

102.94

103.14

57.780

1500

144.94

147.93

99.863

 

910

102.22

102.37

55.883

1490

144.21

147.16

99.840

 

900

101.50

101.60

53.972

1480

143.49

146.39

99.813

 

890

100.77

100.82

52.052

1470

142.76

145.61

99.782

 

880

100.05

100.05

50.128

1460

142.04

144.84

99.747

 

870

99.32

99.28

48.203

1450

141.32

144.07

99.706

 

860

98.60

98.51

46.282

1440

140.59

143.30

99.660

 

850

97.88

97.73

44.370

1430

139.87

142.53

99.607

 

840

97.15

96.96

42.471

1420

139.14

141.75

99.547

 

830

96.43

96.19

40.589

1410

138.42

140.98

99.479

 

820

95.70

95.42

38.729

1400

137.70

140.21

99.402

 

810

94.98

94.65

36.894

1390

136.97

139.44

99.315

 

800

94.26

93.87

35.088

1380

136.25

138.66

99.217

 

790

93.53

93.10

33.316

1370

135.52

137.89

99.106

 

780

92.81

92.33

31.580

1360

134.80

137.12

98.983

 

770

92.08

91.56

29.884

1350

134.08

136.35

98.845

 

760

91.36

90.78

28.231

1340

133.35

135.58

98.691

 

750

90.64

90.01

26.623

1330

132.63

134.80

98.519

 

740

89.91

89.24

25.062

1320

131.90

134.03

98.329

 

730

89.19

88.47

23.552

1310

131.18

133.26

98.118

 

720

88.46

87.69

22.093

1300

130.46

132.49

97.884

 

710

87.74

86.92

20.687

1290

129.73

131.71

97.627

 

700

87.02

86.15

19.335

1280

129.01

130.94

97.344

 

690

86.29

85.38

18.039

1270

128.28

130.17

97.033

 

680

85.57

84.61

16.799

1260

127.56

129.40

96.692

 

670

84.84

83.83

15.615

1250

126.84

128.63

96.320

 

660

84.12

83.06

14.488

1240

126.11

127.85

95.914

 

650

83.40

82.29

13.416

1230

125.39

127.08

95.473

 

640

82.67

81.52

12.400

1220

124.66

126.31

94.994

 

630

81.95

80.74

11.440

1210

123.94

125.54

94.476

 

620

81.22

79.97

10.533

1200

123.22

124.76

93.916

 

610

80.50

79.20

9.680

1190

122.49

123.99

93.312

 

600

79.78

78.43

8.879

1180

121.77

123.22

92.664

 

590

79.05

77.66

8.128

1170

121.04

122.45

91.968

 

580

78.33

76.88

7.426

1160

120.32

121.67

91.224

 

570

77.60

76.11

6.771

1150

119.60

120.90

90.429

 

560

76.88

75.34

6.162

1140

118.87

120.13

89.583

 

550

76.16

74.57

5.596

1130

118.15

119.36

88.683

 

540

75.43

73.79

5.072

1120

117.42

118.59

87.730

 

530

74.71

73.02

4.589

1110

116.70

117.81

86.722

 

520

73.98

72.25

4.142

1100

115.98

117.04

85.658

 

510

73.26

71.48

3.732

1090

115.25

116.27

84.538

 

500

72.54

70.71

3.356

1080

114.53

115.50

83.361

 

490

71.81

69.93

3.011

1070

113.80

114.72

82.128

 

480

71.09

69.16

2.696

1060

113.08

113.95

80.840

 

470

70.36

68.39

2.409

1050

112.36

113.18

79.495

 

460

69.64

67.62

2.149

1040

111.63

112.41

78.097

 

450

68.92

66.84

1.912

1030

110.91

111.64

76.645

 

440

68.19

66.07

1.698

1020

110.18

110.86

75.141

 

430

67.47

65.30

1.505


39 posted on 04/18/2014 5:06:48 AM PDT by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: Timber Rattler

You still have not told us why these tests are worthless. That you got into higher education and as a result, are doing well in the job market, presumably because you passed them, does not argue against them.

Please elucidate. I am interested in what you have to say.


40 posted on 04/18/2014 5:13:00 AM PDT by OldPossum ("It's" is the contraction of "it" and "is"; think about ITS implications.)
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To: AnAmericanMother

Actually the best predictors of college success are high school grades and AP test scores. The SAT is a lousy predictor of success in anything. I should know, I aced the SAT!


41 posted on 04/18/2014 5:29:04 AM PDT by babble-on
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To: central_va

Interesting SAT/IQ conversion chart.

Out of curiosity, when was this chart published? Also, what’s the source—there’s a lot of precision—perhaps false precision—in carrying the estimates out to a couple of decimal points.

I ask about “when” because I’ve heard it stated that current SAT scoring is some 50 + points more generous than the scoring of a generation ago. “It was harder in the old days!”


42 posted on 04/18/2014 5:30:10 AM PDT by Pearls Before Swine
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To: OldPossum

You can run from “g” but you can’t hide. Of course when people like Charles Murray point this out some folks get nasty. And yes not everyone who does well on certain tests (whether real IQ tests or proxy’s like the SAT and GRE) does great in school or life. That said, you bet the odds, not the exceptions - if you are rational that is.


43 posted on 04/18/2014 5:30:14 AM PDT by RKV (He who has the guns makes the rules)
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To: central_va

A lot of pols are surprisingly limited in general intelligence, but they usually have exceptional motivation, opportunities, and/or other (e.g., ‘people’) skills. And yeah, W was probably smarter than Al.

Likewise, CEOs in the business world are usually intelligent, but unless they are in a high-intelligence sector, such as technology or healthcare, they tend not to be exceptionally so.


44 posted on 04/18/2014 5:30:21 AM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: Pearls Before Swine
SAT to IQ conversion chart link, Crunch here!
45 posted on 04/18/2014 5:33:32 AM PDT by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: Pearls Before Swine

maybe you can find out more here——SAT to IQ conversion
http://www.sq.4mg.com/IQ-SATchart.htm


46 posted on 04/18/2014 5:34:01 AM PDT by dennisw (The first principle is to find out who you are then you can achieve anything -- Buddhist monk)
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To: babble-on

Don’t worry—a certain percentage of high SAT scores are simply outliers where the results don’t show the test-taker’s true ability. That’s why repeat high scores are more significant than one-time scores. ;-)

And the data show SATs are about as good at predicting college success as are grades alone. AP scores are good too, but less broadly applicable because fewer students take AP classes and tests.


47 posted on 04/18/2014 5:34:03 AM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: Altura Ct.
"whether in text or graphic"... hmmm, so they're going to show them pictures and ask questions about it?


48 posted on 04/18/2014 5:34:32 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: Timber Rattler

“I’ve known 1600 scorers who washed out and also 800 or below scorers who did just fine”

Your particular line of work sounds very bureaucratic. In which case, “the wash outs” would be anyone who could not “conform to the norm”.

How do I know this. I scored about 1500 but only because I could interpolate answers. You used the term “wash out”. I infer that you operate in a very rigid work environment.

I went to one of the worst high schools ever. I graduated knowing nothing. But I could do well on these tests because they usually give you the answer in the question. Just as you have here.

Conforming to the norm is a certain type of talent that is prized. It is not something the SAT measures though.


49 posted on 04/18/2014 5:36:58 AM PDT by staytrue
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To: Timber Rattler

Those tests allowed a very poor boy to go to both college and medical school.


50 posted on 04/18/2014 5:40:11 AM PDT by dangerdoc
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