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Bundy Ranch Showdown Proves Militias Can Stop Government Excesses
JPFO ^ | April 19,2014 | Kurt Hofman

Posted on 04/20/2014 2:39:03 AM PDT by SWAMPSNIPER

When gun rights advocates explain that the Second Amendment exists to protect the people's last-ditch means of stopping an out-of-control government, a common reply from those who favor oppressive gun laws is that civilians, with our small arms, would have no chance against a military superpower like the U.S. They tell us that with tanks, stealth bombers, supersonic fighter jets, drones, helicopter gunships, etc., the military would crush any resistance by the people. (Oddly, this argument has apparently not yet convinced the Taliban to quit fighting.)

(Excerpt) Read more at jpfo.org ...


TOPICS: Activism/Chapters; Constitution/Conservatism; Government
KEYWORDS: blm; bundy; government; militia
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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1 posted on 04/20/2014 2:39:03 AM PDT by SWAMPSNIPER
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To: SWAMPSNIPER
 photo menfr_zps843fa60f.jpg

2 posted on 04/20/2014 2:41:04 AM PDT by SWAMPSNIPER (The Second Amendment, a Matter of Fact, Not a Matter of Opinion)
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To: SWAMPSNIPER

Let’s face it, the standoff turning bloody would have hurt Obama......that is why it ended.

If they could have transformed the armed citizens into terrorists, this could have been another Waco.


3 posted on 04/20/2014 2:46:56 AM PDT by Erik Latranyi
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

What can a pistol do against an army?


4 posted on 04/20/2014 3:33:39 AM PDT by Mark17 (Chicago Blackhawks: Stanley Cup champions 2010, 2013. Vietnam Vet 70-71 Msgt US Air Force, retired)
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To: Mark17

Run around and irritate the crap out of it.


5 posted on 04/20/2014 3:35:14 AM PDT by SWAMPSNIPER (The Second Amendment, a Matter of Fact, Not a Matter of Opinion)
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To: Mark17

Not nearly as much as a camera.


6 posted on 04/20/2014 3:39:47 AM PDT by proudpapa (Scott Walker - 2016)
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To: proudpapa

Yep. Lots of them in fact and some elected officials on hand to boot.


7 posted on 04/20/2014 3:40:39 AM PDT by MarMema (Run Ted Run)
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To: Erik Latranyi

“If they could have transformed the armed citizens into terrorists, this could have been another Waco.”

Seems Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid is doing everything he can to make that possible next time.


8 posted on 04/20/2014 4:00:15 AM PDT by jughandle ( "We have the right to debate and disagree with any administration!" -HRColl)
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To: SWAMPSNIPER

Talk about over-confidence.


9 posted on 04/20/2014 4:15:58 AM PDT by expat1000
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To: Mark17

Read the history of the W.W. II “Liberator.”


10 posted on 04/20/2014 4:25:24 AM PDT by Fighter@heart (The government cares NOT 1 iota about your health, only about your WEALTH!!!)
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To: Erik Latranyi

Wouldn’t have been like Waco for there would’ve been dead on both sides , and the Federates (JBT) would’ve loss the battle at the cattle pens .


11 posted on 04/20/2014 4:27:56 AM PDT by piroque ("In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act")
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To: Mark17

For some reason there are people who believe our military would be willing to turn on the population. Our military is not separate from the population. They live among us. They have civilian friends. If it does come to an armed revolution much of the military would join in, others would refuse to fight and stay neutral. I think few would attack the civilian population.


12 posted on 04/20/2014 4:30:29 AM PDT by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink)
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To: Mark17

Force multiplier.


13 posted on 04/20/2014 4:35:44 AM PDT by NTHockey (Rules of engagement #1: Take no prisoners. And to the NSA trolls, FU)
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To: jughandle

> “If they could have transformed the armed citizens into terrorists, this could have been another Waco.”

Seems Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid is doing everything he can to make that possible next time.

We can play the renaming game, too. The difference is ours is the truth. Reid is selfish, cheating, lying scumbag politician who has friends that are mobsters. Politicians don’t align themselves with organized crime sydnicates to do good in the community, Harry. We see you for what you are. A traitor that is in the process of selling the American dream we once knew to the highest bidder for the ultimate betrayal. Your days are numbered.


14 posted on 04/20/2014 4:43:59 AM PDT by jsanders2001
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To: SWAMPSNIPER

I would argue that most of the BLM officers were not properly armored or with suitable cover.

The decision to retreat was proper because their force was flanked and outmanned. There was no determined effort to resist and carry the operation forward.

It was a tactical decision. There can be another day when the BLM officers are better armored, have better weaponry and cover. The militias will likely be put on defense and will loose.

The outcome though doesn’t depend on who is best armored or armed. The question boils down to does the BLM want to go to war. If they do, the officers will be targets where ever they go, in their homes with their families, at a family meal at McDonalds, at church. Will those officers pull the trigger on Ranchers, Americans? If they do, their lives are at an effective end.


15 posted on 04/20/2014 4:45:41 AM PDT by bert ((K.E. N.P. N.C. +12 ..... History is a process, not an event)
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To: bert
From the BLM point of view, what they have learned is to wait for the militia to leave, act fast and hard, take out all the Bundys before help can arrive, and then round up the cows.

That is all they have learned.

They have not learned they will not be safe until what you suggest starts happening.

We will see.....

16 posted on 04/20/2014 4:57:22 AM PDT by Gadsden1st
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To: R. Scott

R.Scott, I pray that you are correct.
However, Zero and the 0bamunists are hellbent on creating that civilian security force he called for. To that end, he continues to provide military gear to police and sheriff departments around the country. To that end, the training programs of many departments now more resemble Army AIT than law enforcement training in which (both) I participated (many years ago).
Do the a$$hats in DC know what will happen if they actually order attacks on the American people? Not really.
Was Waco a test case? Maybe. Ruby Ridge? Perhaps.
So, what happened in NV? Significant government forces, armed, equipped and prepared for deadly force action were met by significantly larger ad hoc civilian militia, equipped and prepared for such confrontation. This accompanied by instantaneous video and audio communication to the larger world beyond.
I believe the planned outcome would have been a MAJOR public relations disaster for this hobbled (but dangerous) administration. They chose to withdraw rather than suffer the heat.
What about the next time? They will apply lessons learned. Likely there will not be the several days of standoff, stupid things like “first amendment zones”, and tasers and dogs (those are far too ‘one on one’).
Likely it will be swift, tightly controlled, and the administration will carefully manage the media and the message.
Dingy Harry is setting that stage with his incessant yapping about ‘domestic terrorists’, when in fact the only terrorism in this scenario was from the gubmint, not the people standing their ground.

The Constitution is our shield, but it must be enforced.
The Second Amendment is our sword, and it must be preserved.


17 posted on 04/20/2014 5:30:33 AM PDT by PubliusMM (RKBA; a matter of fact, not opinion. 01-20-2016; I pray we make it that long.)
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To: SWAMPSNIPER

Nothing has been won.

The Feral Gov. just backed down temporarily to avoid another Waco or Ruby Ridge oon live TV.

When things quiet down they will be back with a vengeance and make Bundy pay double for this momentary embarrassment to them.


18 posted on 04/20/2014 5:32:42 AM PDT by Iron Munro (NSA reports Malaysia Flight 370 black box signals detected in Bermuda Triangle)
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To: SWAMPSNIPER

The Fedcoats are not done, in Nevada or elsewhere. Not by a long shot.

There are too many heavily armed (and armored) Fed SWAT teams that, combined with a police-state mentality, makes it a virtual certainty that shots will be fired before the end of this year. Crazy summer ahead, methinks.

Small-scale casualties are inevitable (i.e. a civilian showing a gun at the “wrong” time, such as during a SWAT raid) but those killings make for small headlines, usually. Maybe not this time, but who knows.

It’s the “big one” that has me worried. Whether a an outright assault, “false flag” or straight-up, or perhaps a “Lexington” encounter, that spark will start a much bigger conflagration. Lots of bodies, on both sides.

Maybe my reporter’s “nose for news” is off, but I seem to be hearing more talk now about “organizing” instead of the “prepper” discussions we’ve had in recent years. Crazy summer indeed.


19 posted on 04/20/2014 5:34:44 AM PDT by DNME (This is the government our Founders warned us about.)
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To: R. Scott
Our military is not separate from the population. They live among us. They have civilian friends. If it does come to an armed revolution much of the military would join in, others would refuse to fight and stay neutral. I think few would attack the civilian population. (My emphasis)

The military functions on orders, not emotion.

20 posted on 04/20/2014 5:41:23 AM PDT by varon (Para bellum)
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To: Gadsden1st

You are correct. The lesson has not been taught or learned. I was projecting the thoughts of the BLM locals. They work and actually live in the communities.

A officer could project the future and see trouble for “me.”


21 posted on 04/20/2014 5:44:28 AM PDT by bert ((K.E. N.P. N.C. +12 ..... History is a process, not an event)
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To: R. Scott
For some reason there are people who believe our military would be willing to turn on the population. Our military is not separate from the population. They live among us. They have civilian friends.

Those are nice thoughts, but the same could be said for SWAT teams, ATF, etc., many of whom do not hesitate to break down doors, shoot innocent people, terrorize children, kill pets, burn houses down and never show a moment's remorse.

These incidents take place more and more often and the people who bring this violence to everyday citizens are also neighbors, sons, dads and the guy who lives down the street.

IMHO, if (when) the SHTF there will be plenty of federal employees, in and out of the military ready to do Master Obama's bidding.

Not all, but many.

Remember - the military did not hesitate to aid the feds in the slaughter of 80 citizens at Waco.

As they say - Hope for the best, Prep for the worst.


22 posted on 04/20/2014 5:45:10 AM PDT by Iron Munro (NSA reports Malaysia Flight 370 black box signals detected in Bermuda Triangle)
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To: Mark17

Be where they are not...


23 posted on 04/20/2014 6:06:43 AM PDT by Caipirabob (Communists... Socialists... Democrats...Traitors... Who can tell the difference?)
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To: Erik Latranyi

No way in hell the cattle pens incident turned into another Waco. The BLM was out flanked, outgunned and out numbered. That said the aftermath would of been very ugly.


24 posted on 04/20/2014 6:09:24 AM PDT by mad_as_he$$
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To: PubliusMM

If these resident agencies become militarized and they use such force, their jobs become 24/7 FOREVER. In the end, once the shooting stops in a foreign territory, the troops wihdraw and go home. This would be more like troops in Afghanistan going home at 5PM and going to a home next to the people they had been shooting at all day.


25 posted on 04/20/2014 6:11:56 AM PDT by Caipirabob (Communists... Socialists... Democrats...Traitors... Who can tell the difference?)
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To: Gadsden1st

No way they do an open attack on the Bundy Ranch. The Bundy’s are the safest people in Nevada. It would be open warfare on the families of Fed employees. Just an observation.


26 posted on 04/20/2014 6:12:27 AM PDT by mad_as_he$$
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To: R. Scott

Our military is not separate from the population. They live among us. They have civilian friends. If it does come to an armed revolution much of the military would join in, others would refuse to fight and stay neutral. I think few would attack the civilian population. (My emphasis)


Who do you think is on these SWAT teams? That is why they where masks. They hate citizens, and they love to see people cower at their feet. They are the neighbors who never talk to you.

We lost more Americans to police violence last year than we did to the Taliban or Al Qaeda.


27 posted on 04/20/2014 6:22:48 AM PDT by maine yankee (I got my Governor at 'Marden's')
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To: SWAMPSNIPER

Let’s not be too cocky. Zero is still in the White Hut.


28 posted on 04/20/2014 6:34:30 AM PDT by Minutemen ("It's a Religion of Peace")
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To: SWAMPSNIPER

Change the scenario a bit. Hillary is president. Do you really think they would have backed down?

Hillary is even worse than 0bama.


29 posted on 04/20/2014 6:40:32 AM PDT by I want the USA back (Media: completely irresponsible traitors. Complicit in the destruction of our country.)
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To: Erik Latranyi

Could it be that government forces under Obama are planning an early morning attack on the Bundy compound to bring Mr. Bundy out dead or alive? After all Bundy is well regarded by the T Party who are feared by the RATS. We have Sen. Reid calling Mr. Bundy and his followers domestic terrorists. Remember Ruby Ridge &* Waco.


30 posted on 04/20/2014 6:40:32 AM PDT by kenmcg
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To: Minutemen

http://www.americasfreedomfighters.com/2014/04/19/diamond-bar-ranch-in-nm-seized-by-us-forest-service/


31 posted on 04/20/2014 6:45:39 AM PDT by BlueMoose
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To: I want the USA back
Obama is a dope smoker and a puppet. He hasn't got the intestinal fortitude to pull the trigger in any situation. Hillary is a cold blooded killer and has no remorse for killing as it has served her well the majority of her life. She would have had the BLM fire on the cameraman when he approached the BLM line. Make no mistake about it, if she gets a hold of the US she'll make Obama look like a great President.
32 posted on 04/20/2014 6:49:57 AM PDT by vetvetdoug
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To: Erik Latranyi
If they could have transformed the armed citizens into terrorists, this could have been another Waco.

Harry Reid is working on that messaging right now. The rest of the democrat party will follow shortly.
33 posted on 04/20/2014 6:51:04 AM PDT by andyk (I have sworn...eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.)
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To: SWAMPSNIPER

We need to go back to the question “ What functions were the Federal government given as established by the constitution.”


34 posted on 04/20/2014 6:51:15 AM PDT by jetson
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To: R. Scott
For some reason there are people who believe our military would be willing to turn on the population.

Obama has been slowly converting our armed forces to address just that, via purges, repeal of DADT, training using right-wingers as agitators, etc. I don't think they do these things outside of a larger plan.
35 posted on 04/20/2014 6:54:36 AM PDT by andyk (I have sworn...eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.)
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To: SWAMPSNIPER
The militia are not autonomous, despite such a belief by many at FR.

In the USA, there is only 1 militia per U.S. state, and 1 militia per U.S. territory, and 1 militia for DC.

In general, all non-conscientious-objector, able-bodied men are regarded as a pool from which the militia may be mustered and/or recruited and/or some may volunteer.

We do have the right to keep and bear Arms, but to use martial power lawfully, requires the authority of either the duly-elected state/territory governor, lt. gov., secy of state, attorney gen’l ... or the duly-elected legislature.

Usually the legislature selects or assigns a committee to oversee the matters at hand and respond to the emergency that has caused the people to urge the members of the legislature to order the muster.

The duly-elected state/territory legislative body has the overall authority, and it can order the muster despite all the other elected officials and/or judges.

In general, the proceedings are modeled along the same lines as used by our Continental Congress and the various Committees of Safety within the colonies.

(Massachusetts was the first to choose a Committee of Safety that had authority over its militia.)

The authority to exercise martial power and law enforcement by force, stems from a duly elected body, and we are expected by our Founding Fathers, to adhere to such due process, as they did.

The militia can train, but cannot exercise martial power without the approval of duly-elected civilian authority. That distinguishes the militia from “an armed gang or mob.”

Almost all, if not all, militia in the U.S. are out of the practice of responding to state and local emergencies -— because the traditional musters have waned for a long time, now. The lack of practice, is what leads to errors and missteps, particularly in regard to The Authority for The Militia to Act.

If you volunteer for some emergency, or what you think is an emergency, you have volunteered for service to the needs of the citizens.

If you exercise martial power, you better be prepared to announce the state/local civilian authority that authorizes your actions.

If you volunteer to enforce the local and/or state laws, you better be prepared to accept your role as a sheriff deputy and as much as you are able, pains-taking-ly note how you are following due process. Basically, *you have to* keep a log of your activities, somehow; take notes; record events; do what you can to demonstrate to the local and/or state duly-elected civilian authority (and to judges), that you made a good faith effort to follow the law(s).

If you think that your cause is just, and you are responding to abuse by government, it is in the best interest of the community in which such abuse takes place, that its duly elected civilian authority *under the command of which, you are operating,* is both:

a) opposed to said abuse by government
b) has authorized certain steps to be taken and authorized you to perform those steps

*Then* you are in compliance with the public’s trust.

36 posted on 04/20/2014 6:54:56 AM PDT by First_Salute (May God save our democratic-republican government, from a government by judiciary.)
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To: SWAMPSNIPER

The Bundy,s could now become the target of the government in other ways, it would not be the first time cocaine or something else was found where it was not.

The reason we have this problem in the first place is because the people put this land in the hands of the feds, and it will stay in their control until the voters take it away from them which obviously will not happen, other wise it would not have gotten as far as it has in the first place.

Not trying to be a pessimist, just reading the signs.


37 posted on 04/20/2014 6:56:21 AM PDT by ravenwolf
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To: vetvetdoug

If Hillary gets elected she will build her own militia from mercenaries worldwide, they will infiltrate domestic local militias and disrupt them, or to create incidents of mass brutal savagery to convince Americans to NOT support any militia.

Its all about mass support, trends, Facebook, tweeterville and such, its not pure patriotism, its now the age of social acceptance.

Hillary will create a negative social standing of all the militias.


38 posted on 04/20/2014 6:57:58 AM PDT by Spartan302
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To: SWAMPSNIPER
A Committee of Safety may exist there, in the county, but remains out of the news?

There is a basic principle in our law, that civilian authority trumps the exercise of power and moreso trumps the exercise of martial power. We rely on that principle, for our duly-elected representatives to outrank members of our military and to outrank police powers as well.

Thereby, you, as a duly-elected civilian in charge of an office of government that contains a department of military and/or department of police powers, have the *civilian authority* to remove from position the agents and officials of those departments ... and your decision is final, there is no appeal for some “civil servant” when they serve in a capacity of exercising forceful power.

In short, the people, here, are sovereign, intead of some arrogant class in robes and uniforms and/or some groups of armed people exercising martial power without the authorization of duly-elected civilian authority.

The actions taken at the Bundy Ranch may very well be in compliance with the public’s trust ... because of the sentiments of the public ... but officially, it is much better that the public’s sentiment be known and be reflected in the decisions of the existing duly-elected representatives, and if not them, then at the minimum, by a duly-elected Committee of Safety.

If no such civilian authority gives the approval for the exercise of martial power, then the volunteers who show, are as civilians exercising as you would when attempting to help a neighbor ... and the common law applies ... and basically you are attempting to enforce the law.

Let us say, that thankfully no shots are fired, but a group of volunteers apprehended some of the BLM agents during some mixup that could have occurred last Saturday. The volunteers would be affecting citizens arrests and detaining the BLM agents to be handed over -safely- to the local sheriff. It is very important that the volunteers carefully document their actions, effectively as spur-of-the-moment volunteer deputies.

In our country, the people have the right to muster and drill. The people have the right to petition our duly-elected representatives to Order the Muster in expectation that the Militia may exercise martial power for the common safety. The people have the right to petition our duly-elected representatives to appoint from among the members (or all of) the Militia, deputies to enforce the laws and/or reinforce an organization of law enforcement ... or utterly replace an organization of law enforcement.

It’s all up to the people, thru their duly-elected representatives.

That is how we respect adherence to the public trust; and it is what our Founding Fathers both respected and wished for us, should necessity come.

39 posted on 04/20/2014 6:59:01 AM PDT by First_Salute (May God save our democratic-republican government, from a government by judiciary.)
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To: varon

And soldiers have a duty to disobey any unlawful order. Review the Nuremburg trials if you doubt that.


40 posted on 04/20/2014 7:15:05 AM PDT by pcpa
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To: Caipirabob
As a Potential Domestic Terrorist, I stand proudly ready to defend my Country against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

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SNIPER 101 Part 64
JBM Ballistics Intro

SNIPER 101 Part 65
INTERPOLATION Don't skip this one!

SNIPER 101 Part 66
External Ballistics: Pressure & Gravity

SNIPER 101 Part 67
Bullet Stability

SNIPER 101 Part 68
Bullet Balance Issues EXPLAINED!

SNIPER 101 Part 69
Bullet RPM & Overstabilization

SNIPER 101 Part 70
Aerodynamic Stability

SNIPER 101 Part 71
Magnus Effect & Spin Drift

SNIPER 101 Part 72
Spin Drift Corrections MADE EASY!

SNIPER 101 Part 73
Coriolis Effects on Rifle Bullets

SNIPER 101 Part 74
Coriolis Drift (Questions Answered)

SNIPER 101 Part 75
The TRANSONIC ZONE & Maximum Effective Range

SNIPER 101 Part 76
G1 vs G7 Drag Functions & Ballistic Coefficients

SNIPER 101 Part 77
Calculating FIRING SOLUTIONS for Various Applications of Fire

SNIPER 101 Part 78
Ballistic CALCFORMS How to Use / Introduction

I hope everyone on this forum decides they want to become an expert shooter and learn how to hit a 5 gallon bucket at 1000 yards with their first shot. It a challenge that's worth your time. That I'll guarantee you.

41 posted on 04/20/2014 7:28:27 AM PDT by B4Ranch (Name your illness, do a Google & YouTube search with "hydrogen peroxide". Do it and be surprised.)
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To: Erik Latranyi

“Let’s face it, the standoff turning bloody would have hurt Obama......that is why it ended.
If they could have transformed the armed citizens into terrorists, this could have been another Waco.”

You give the govt too much credit. The standoff ended because the govt goons were outnumbered and getting ready to get their butts shot off.

Secondly this would never have become Waco because the govt was not confronting a bunch of cult members holed up in a building. They were confronting trained and armed militia and from the reports I read outnumbered.

The aggressors were not combat troops or even the FBI they were a bunch of jumped up forest rangers with tactcal gear interspersed with a few hired mercs. They are the Civilian National Defense Force and they do not have the eye of the tiger.

Obama’s Civilian National Defense Force has no Constitutional or statutory leg to stand on. Everywhere they appear they need to be neutralized by militia and citizens. They have no jurisdiction to make armed incursions into sovereign states. The Governor of Nevada should have sent the staters to run them off at the first sign of their operation. Since he was hiding under his desk the citizens and their militia had to do it.

Look for this to happen again and again across the country.


42 posted on 04/20/2014 8:04:27 AM PDT by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose o f a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: vetvetdoug
Make no mistake about it, if she gets a hold of the US she'll make Obama look like a great President

Unfortunately, I have to agree. Her and Obama ALMOST make me miss Jimmy Carter. I have no doubt that there is a better than even chance, that if the Hildebeast becomes president, there could be many Waco events. The bad part of it, is I am pretty sure Bill Clinton will be the next first man. It's an ugly thought, and I pray to Jesus every day that it does not happen, but I think it will.

43 posted on 04/20/2014 8:49:04 AM PDT by Mark17 (Chicago Blackhawks: Stanley Cup champions 2010, 2013. Vietnam Vet 70-71 Msgt US Air Force, retired)
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To: pcpa
And soldiers have a duty to disobey any unlawful order. Review the Nuremburg trials if you doubt that.

Give me a break........................

Review the Whiskey Rebellion or the Bonus Army or Kent State University or the clandestine participation at Waco......................

44 posted on 04/20/2014 8:55:45 AM PDT by varon (Para bellum)
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To: mad_as_he$$
It would be open warfare on the families of Fed employees. Just an observation.

Should that occur, it would render our Patriots as evil as the oppressors. A freedom fighter attacks the oppressors; a terrorist attacks his women and children.

45 posted on 04/20/2014 9:03:17 AM PDT by JimRed (Excise the cancer before it kills us; feed & water the Tree of Liberty! TERM LIMITS NOW & FOREVER!)
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To: JimRed

You and I know that. There are many that are ready to take it there. Let’s hope they do not get the chance or act on it.


46 posted on 04/20/2014 9:27:49 AM PDT by mad_as_he$$
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To: SWAMPSNIPER
The Feds will not return to the Bundy Ranch until everyone has left. Then they'll quietly roll up the matter.

The leviathan will continue to absorb.

And, all those who depart will be methodically arrested, either on their drive home or early some morning shortly after they arrive.

Any who resist will be shot and/or burned.

These guys (Feds) are not equipped to deal with concentrated force willing and able to fight back.

They are VERY good at culling their targets from the herd with overwhelming, concentrated force.

47 posted on 04/20/2014 11:01:53 AM PDT by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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To: Spartan302

I thought I saw someone say on Facebook that Facebook was not allowing any more videos of the Bundy ranch to be posted. It looked like the videos were going viral a few days ago but that might have been curtailed.


48 posted on 04/20/2014 11:25:08 AM PDT by firebrand (not in a bad mood)
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To: All
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49 posted on 04/20/2014 11:26:14 AM PDT by musicman (Until I see the REAL Long Form Vault BC, he's just "PRES__ENT" Obama = Without "ID")
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To: SWAMPSNIPER

Reid’s Rustlers are going to return in greater numbers with greater military resources.


50 posted on 04/20/2014 2:09:22 PM PDT by Paladin2
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