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Bundy Ranch Posts Response to Readers of USA Today
Facebook ^ | April 23, 2014 | Ammon Bundy

Posted on 04/23/2014 11:11:10 AM PDT by ponygirl

Readers of USA TODAY:

Some have asked why didn't my father pay the grazing fee. This can be understood in two ways. One is founded on preemptive rights and the other upon state rights or state sovereignty. When my family rolled into this country in the 1800's they began to tame the land and use it for survival, settling this land the same as the rest of the United States. Each family claimed their stake and developed the area. Others respected the area and understood as long as the family was using the resources or land it was the families to claim and share. When states were initiated into the union these rights or claims became more defined and further protected by state law as rights that could be sold traded or even borrowed against...

(Excerpt) Read more at facebook.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: blm; bundy; bundyranch; corruption; government; grazingfees; statesrights
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To: driftdiver; All

I enjoyed reading this article - lean red something from it, actually.

http://clashdaily.com/2014/04/bundys-critics-overlook-west-turf-anywhere-won-first-place/


21 posted on 04/23/2014 12:25:41 PM PDT by jacquej ("It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and to forget his own.")
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To: Duke C.
This clause appears in EVERY States' Constitution.

Would it be possible to demonstrate that without going to too much trouble?

22 posted on 04/23/2014 12:32:04 PM PDT by Karl Spooner
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To: Duke C.

” forever disclaim all right and title to the unappropriated public lands lying within said territory, and that the same shall be and remain at the sole and entire disposition of the United States”

You are missing the ‘unappropriated’ part.

Some of it had been appropriated to ranchers like Bundy. They don’t own it, just the rights to use it for ranching.


23 posted on 04/23/2014 12:32:27 PM PDT by Beagle8U (Unions are an Affirmative Action program for Slackers! .)
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To: BenLurkin

So all federal territory is federal land, all federal land is federal territoty?

Puerto Rico and Guam are on the same legal footing as Camp David and Fort Knox? .

Territorys and the people in them can form states to self govern and have rights equal to all other states...

Random federal own land can not form states and do not self govern in any form..its federal private property


24 posted on 04/23/2014 12:34:39 PM PDT by tophat9000 (Are we headed to a Cracker Slacker War?)
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To: tophat9000

Territorys and the people in them can form states to self govern — but until they do, it is a Federal territory.


25 posted on 04/23/2014 12:36:43 PM PDT by BenLurkin (This is not a statement of fact. It is either opinion or satire; or both.)
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To: tophat9000

By the way, you’ll notice that Mr. Bundy says that his family has “claims” to the land — but he does not say that they ever claimed to own it.


26 posted on 04/23/2014 12:38:00 PM PDT by BenLurkin (This is not a statement of fact. It is either opinion or satire; or both.)
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To: RedStateRocker
I am not clear on the concept of “presumptive right”.

It's preemptive Right:
4. Having or marked by the power to preempt or take precedence

----

It was a Right to public grazing that homesteaders received as an incentive to settle the West. Acknowledgment of these Rights can be found in the Library of Congress during the discussion concerning the selling of land for the railroad.

(Sorry for the cut & paste - the Library disables active links)

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llsb&fileName=040/llsb040.db&recNum=818
40th Congress, 2nd Session, S190, December 13, 1867 (page3, Line12)
Provided, this privilege shall not extend to lands upon which there many be rightful claims under the preemption and homestead laws

These Rights preempt, (or prevent) any government law or organization from affecting the use of the public land as long as the landholder meets his end of the bargain.

27 posted on 04/23/2014 12:38:21 PM PDT by MamaTexan (I am a Person as created by the Laws of Nature, not a person as created by the laws of Man)
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To: bigbob
"Its also true that the BLM can and does change the terms of the grazing agreements"

Actually Congress does that, and the agency administers.

Congress passed the Taylor Grazing Act and created the Grazing Division to administer it. They weren't very successful so they changed the name to US Grazing Service and relocated to Salt Lake City.

Then the US Grazing Service was merged with the General Land Office to create BLM.

Then Congress passed FPLMA in 1976 and BLM's mission was changed to Multi-use and tightening control over the lands. The Land Office duties were shifted elsewhere. Homesteading ended at that time.

Congress enacted numerous acts back in the 70s to deal with problems beside over-grazing: OSHA, MHSA, Endangered Species act, Pollution control acts and creating EPA, Logging policies to deal with clearcutting, the Magnussen Act to regulate the ocean fisheries.

28 posted on 04/23/2014 12:39:35 PM PDT by Ben Ficklin
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To: Ben Ficklin

Did congress also authorize BLM to militarize themselves?


29 posted on 04/23/2014 12:54:18 PM PDT by Karl Spooner
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To: Hostage; All
A poster commented last week that had Bundy paid the fees, he would have been required to acknowledge the federal dominion of the water shed and this would have cut his water usage by half resulting in losing his cattle business. Something caused 50 or so ranchers in Nevada to be put out of business. That is the real scandal. That is what needs investigating.

The pretense of "environmental protection" via Federal authority has created a situation where the government is driving all manner of American producers of food and energy out of business by making them outlaws for doing what humankind has done for the past 5,000 years or more.

The same is happening on both coasts with American commercial fishing. Feds "protect" voracious sea mammals such as seals, otters, sea lions, and other critters. Before said protection, these smart animals learned pretty fast not to mess with fishermen and kept their distance; the critters and West Coast fishermen pretty much co-existed. Once the Feds got involved, the critter populations exploded by about quadruple and ATE FISH, not to mention clambered anywhere they pleased and sunk docks and half-sunk sailboats at anchor in the process, and are still doing so.

But gullible Americans have been bamboozled into blaming American fishermen for "depleting" the fish stocks. Meanwhile, in exactly the same fashion as the Feds clamp python-like with ever tightening "environmental protections," food producers from cattlemen to fishermen are CRIMINALIZED.

Desert turtles and fish have adapted to a lot more intense environmental change over the past hundred million years than anything man can throw at them in the course a few decades or even centuries. But the Federal government has decided that individuals no longer have the right to decide to fish the seas or harvest crops or run livestock on open land, as mankind has done for millennia. The root of tyranny lies in preventing free people from producing their own food and energy.

That's what this is about, and environmentalist "saving the planet" horse manure is its false benevolent pretense.

30 posted on 04/23/2014 12:57:49 PM PDT by Finny (Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. -- Psalm 119:105)
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To: RedStateRocker

The best way I’ve heard it described is as a legally binding easement. My folks have an legal easement for the land the road to their property is on. The actual land owner can never take their right to that road away, not can any subsequent land owner. It seems some of the early agreements to graze land were like legal grazing rights easements.


31 posted on 04/23/2014 1:01:01 PM PDT by dynoman (Objectivity is the essence of intelligence. - Marylin vos Savant)
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To: BereanBrain

I say put those 250 BLM guys with their tactical gear on the border and let them get some combat experience facing down the drug cartels.


32 posted on 04/23/2014 1:03:03 PM PDT by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose o f a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: MamaTexan

I don’t know if it is exactly like homesteading. The land we own was homesteaded, the first entry on the deed is US Government to [homesteader].

I think grazing rights are more like a legal easement, the right to use the land for grazing purposes. The people that held preemptive rights or grazing rights never got a actual deed to the land. If they had got the actual deed like homesteaders did, Bundy’s wouldn’t be having the problems they are having now.


33 posted on 04/23/2014 1:05:32 PM PDT by dynoman (Objectivity is the essence of intelligence. - Marylin vos Savant)
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To: Karl Spooner
I'm sure they appropriated the money.

That's just one of the things you will have had to live with as more and more people have owned guns. Just like you are going to have to live with school shootings and SWAT teams in every local podunk PD and Sheriffs' office.

That's our culture.

34 posted on 04/23/2014 1:06:01 PM PDT by Ben Ficklin
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To: ponygirl
When my family rolled into this country in the 1800's they began to tame the land and use it for survival, settling this land the same as the rest of the United States.

Ammon Bundy is a very humble low key man. When he says 'survival' I'm sure that isn't even the half of it. I wonder how many people can appreciate just how difficult it must have been to stay alive much less build a profitable cattle business in that scorching hot nearly barren desert?

Yes, they built that! Not the BLM, FedMob government or even the state of Nevada. The FedMob can't even manage to raise Desert Tortoises in their native habitat. They made a refuge, fenced everything else out, gave the tortoises supplemental feed and still have a tortoise herd so sickly they have to kill half of them.

35 posted on 04/23/2014 1:13:04 PM PDT by TigersEye (Stupid is a Progressive disease.)
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To: BereanBrain

It’s easier to go after law abiding Americans than to secure our borders from non-law abiding illegal law breakers.


36 posted on 04/23/2014 1:29:59 PM PDT by tillacum
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To: oh8eleven

HA!!!


37 posted on 04/23/2014 1:37:43 PM PDT by 12th_Monkey (One man one vote is a big fail, when the "one" man is an idiot.)
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To: BenLurkin
Yes and therefore a territory is not federal private property..so are you saying 80+% of the land is Nevada is Federal private property? ..that it was bought from Mexico to be Federal private property? ..how is it different then the Louisiana Purchase? or Florida?...why is it other States and there citizens given the land inside their territory but not Nevada and its citizens

The states and its citizens are to be equal to other states and its citizens so why did some states get the majority of the land in them and other did not?

Two federal land purchases, one from France the other from Mexico..

A State form in each, Nebraska and Nevada.

One State and it citizen own 80 + % of it self and one is 80+% owned by the Fed..why?

How can you say the two states and there citizens were treated equal by the Federal

The land is not private Federal property. .it is land held is common by all US citizens for the benefit of US citizens

...the key is common ownership not private government ownership..

Common ownership and common right to public grazing land and water is a long understood concept...many a public place in older big cities began as common public grazing land...the Commons in Boston for one.

The common citizens had a common RIGHT to its use for its intended use.

But more, in these Federal territory once they became States there was a promise for common federal land in the territory to covert to common State and County ownership not the other way and convert to private Federal land..BLM is treating this as if it were 100% Federal private property...

38 posted on 04/23/2014 1:50:26 PM PDT by tophat9000 (Are we headed to a Cracker Slacker War?)
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To: tophat9000

Not sure what you mean by “Federal private property”, but the question is who holds title, and how it is held.

If the Bundys or their predecessors in interest held title to the land in “fee simple” at the time Congress created the Nevada territory, then the land could not have been Federalized. Thus all the old families in New Orleans continued to own their property (to which they previously acquired title under French law) after the Louisiana purchase.

As to why Nevada let the Federal government retain 80% of the land as Federal land — you’d have to look into the motives of the men who formed the first state government.

I have a sneaking suspicion that they were open range cattlemen who wanted to continue their existing arrangements for grazing etc. — never anticipating that the Federal government would change from a protector into a monster.


39 posted on 04/23/2014 1:59:09 PM PDT by BenLurkin (This is not a statement of fact. It is either opinion or satire; or both.)
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To: Karl Spooner
this is in Alabama's constitution:

"the people inhabiting the said territory, do agree and declare that they forever disclaim all right and title to the waste or unappropriated lands lying within the said territory; and that the same shall be and remain at the sole and entire disposition of the United States …"

And, Nebraska: "That the people inhabiting said territory do agree and declare that they forever disclaim all right and title to the unappropriated public lands lying within said territory, and that the same shall be and remain at the sole and entire disposition of the United States …"
IDENTICAL to Nevada, and only 1% of Nebraska land is Federal.


more here:
http://nevadajournal.com/2013/08/14/how-nebraskas-federal-land-entered-private-domain/

I haven't looked at every state constitution but I'm sure you'll find the same language in some form.
40 posted on 04/23/2014 3:30:18 PM PDT by Duke C.
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