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Moscow orders Kiev to withdraw troops from Ukraine's Donbass region
Globe and Mail ^ | 4-23-2014 | MARK MacKINNON

Posted on 04/23/2014 6:37:58 PM PDT by tcrlaf

Edited on 04/23/2014 6:40:32 PM PDT by Admin Moderator. [history]

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The Russian definitely stepped up the rhetoric today.
1 posted on 04/23/2014 6:37:58 PM PDT by tcrlaf
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To: tcrlaf

The situation in Georgia was, during the Olympics, Russian forces began doing military “drills” along Georgia’s border, and about the same time alleged S.O. Separatists started shooting rockets at Georgian cities, thus leading to a response. More than likely, the rocket-men were Russian Spetsnaz.

I recall seeing the photos of dead Georgians chopped to pieces from what was probably helicopter fire. Big holes in them, top halves of body separated from bottom halves, with the top halfs off some 10 or so yards.


2 posted on 04/23/2014 6:43:27 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: tcrlaf

Putin is such a d-weed.


3 posted on 04/23/2014 6:51:22 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (Immigration Reform is job NONE. It isn't even the leading issue with Hipanics. Enforce our laws.)
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To: DoughtyOne

Psychological warfare. Its easier to confuse the enemy and let him be the bearer of his own downfall.


4 posted on 04/23/2014 6:59:20 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: tcrlaf

then the boys from state will come in and claim victory of no further incursions from Russia and get nothing in return....freaking liberals


5 posted on 04/23/2014 7:02:45 PM PDT by dila813
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
I recall seeing the photos of dead Georgians chopped to pieces from what was probably helicopter fire.

yeah... uh.... well... just watch this.

How they get chopped to pieces.

6 posted on 04/23/2014 7:02:56 PM PDT by UCANSEE2 (Lost my tagline on Flight MH370. Sorry for the inconvenience.)
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To: tcrlaf

I don’t understand!

We’ve done NOTHING to stop them and they’re escalating?!

How does that happen?

/sarc(????)


7 posted on 04/23/2014 7:24:18 PM PDT by Tzimisce
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To: Tzimisce

“We’ve done NOTHING to stop them and they’re escalating?! How does that happen?”

Obama makes big pronouncements about “Red Lines” and Sanctions, then does nothing, while the US Media forgets that it ever happened, and denounces anyone that dares to Remember.

Putin knows well what that is like. He grew up with it.

What’s to fear?


8 posted on 04/23/2014 7:33:40 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Well, it is what the Sheeple voted for....)
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To: tcrlaf

This is not rhetoric, this is an ultimatum.


9 posted on 04/23/2014 8:22:30 PM PDT by BurningOak (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2830849/reply?c=1)
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To: BurningOak
I don't think Putin bluffs either.
10 posted on 04/23/2014 8:27:10 PM PDT by McGruff (Clinton had his Kosovo, Obama has his Ukraine.)
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To: BurningOak

This is not rhetoric, this is an ultimatum.

*********

Yes it is. It reminds me of the warnings that Red China issued as UN forces drove north to the Yalu. Those too were ignored.


11 posted on 04/23/2014 8:35:00 PM PDT by Psalm 144 (FIGHT! FIGHT! SEVERE CONSERVATIVE AND THE WILD RIGHT!)
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To: McGruff

Russians NEVER bluff.

Do you think a bear bluffs? Comrade, if your life is on the line and you see a bear - run!

Don’t wait around to be roadkill.


12 posted on 04/23/2014 8:36:25 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: McGruff

The US started it by spending an obscene amount of money fomenting regime change.


13 posted on 04/23/2014 8:37:34 PM PDT by Ciexyz
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To: tcrlaf
....”The Russian definitely stepped up the rhetoric today”....

It's notable that Putin speaks to whatever his audience is as “thinking” people while Obama speaks to them like they're 10 year old children who require a parent to think for them!

So far Russia has done what it's given fair warning it will do concerning Ukraine I see no reason not to believe they'll go in if things continue to escalate on it’ border. They said this right from the get-go when the Maidan first began their protest.

14 posted on 04/23/2014 8:50:16 PM PDT by caww
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To: Psalm 144
It's almost like the US wants Russia to invade.....and the EU has been non-existant in this for awhile now.

Lavrov’s comments about defending Russian citizens in Ukraine is just a repeat of what Putin's been saying more than once. Dangerous to think Putin's bluffing.....he's been several steps ahead all along....I doubt should he invade, it will be as most think.

'Jet-tag' is already being played over there.....dangerous to imagine this is not building up for whatever Putin determines he will do or not do. Remember Obama said we would not go to war over Ukraine.....and now we have over 600 of our troops in Poland alone....not to mention those they are telling us about.

15 posted on 04/23/2014 9:00:19 PM PDT by caww
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To: Ciexyz
Yes...and now the US government is pushing the interim lot in Kiev to start a war with Russia....makes me sick because our troops are now over there....

This administration did the same thing in Egypt, Libya, Syria, and throughout the Arab Spring. If they can destabilize Ukraine and have their way there, they've completely surrounding Russians border. Ukraine is the biggy....

What they don't get is Russia is not going to give up influence in Ukraine under any circumstances.

16 posted on 04/23/2014 9:09:32 PM PDT by caww
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To: tcrlaf
US Troops landing in Poland. Polish army greeting them


17 posted on 04/23/2014 9:32:43 PM PDT by caww
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To: tcrlaf
US Troops landing in Poland. Polish army greeting them


18 posted on 04/23/2014 9:32:43 PM PDT by caww
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To: goldstategop
Russian Army training for the May parades ...


19 posted on 04/23/2014 9:36:31 PM PDT by caww
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To: tcrlaf; goldstategop

US is definately running it ‘all’ in Ukraine.....any one who questions needs to see this...(barf bags provided)...it’s a total takeover economically/politically by the US of Ukraine

Reading this link is not an easy thing...The US Gov. is truly remaking their entire gov. system and running the election... placing FBI, FEDS, Attorneys/ Bankers, advisors from Gas and Shale Fracking to entirely setting the Gov. system top to bottom..plus redevelopment of the nation.

Though they say “to help Ukraines’s gov. there is no legal Gov...and the US wants it that way while they set things up.....The Interim Gov are simply the doormen.

...so what happened to the EU doing this?????? We’re paying for this in billions of dollars and manpower we should be doing at home here!...including “Securing THEIR border!

Then people wonder why Russia is going to invade....The US is doing the same thing Russia did in Crimea ‘before’ the US could get that as well.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/04/21/fact-sheet-us-crisis-support-package-ukraine


20 posted on 04/23/2014 11:12:35 PM PDT by caww
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To: Ciexyz

Ciexyz wrote:
“The US started it by spending an obscene amount of money fomenting regime change.”

I hear that periodically but haven’t seen any source / background on it.

(wouldn’t be too surprised, as McCain and Hillary tried it on Egypt, backing the Muslim Brotherhood and that was a nightmare).

Would appreciate some background on that.

TIA.


21 posted on 04/23/2014 11:44:12 PM PDT by Yehuda (Search youtube and listen to "Islams Not For Me".)
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To: tcrlaf
"All sides are called upon to refrain from violence, provocation and extremism. Armed groups are to lay down their weapons, and occupied public spaces and buildings are to be vacated. The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) is to monitor agreed de-escalation measures centrally. A constitutional process is to begin and include broad national dialogue across all Ukrainian regions and constituencies."

Above are the basics of what everyone agreed to with regard to the Ukraine. I don't see that the Kiev government restarting what it calls "anti-terrorist" operations is a reasonable thing to do given the above agreement. All sides is all sides or is it all sides except the Kiev crowd?

Where are the people from OSCE who are supposed to monitor the situation and what's their stance on Kiev sending troops to various cities where groups that disagree with the current Kiev crowd are in charge? If said opponents of Kiev vacate public buildings and spaces, they're complying with the agreement.

Anyone have a link to exactly who is going to monitor what and where the Kiev folks are exempted from the de-escalation agreement?

22 posted on 04/24/2014 12:45:11 AM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: caww

what right does Putin have telling Ukraine where it can moblize its forces?


23 posted on 04/24/2014 9:09:44 AM PDT by Sam Gamgee (May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't. - Patton)
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To: Sam Gamgee
what right does Putin have

Might makes right, outside the world of Barry Obama, Hillary Clinton and John F'n Kerry.

24 posted on 04/24/2014 9:20:53 AM PDT by Fightin Whitey
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

That’s a very misleading account of what happened. Georgia attacked South Ossetia in a full scale, pre-planned operation with the goal of seizing the whole territory. The idea that Georgia attacked SO spontaneously in response to some provocation is false.


25 posted on 04/24/2014 11:16:07 AM PDT by Monmouth78
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To: Sam Gamgee

Russia sees it as Kiev (illigetimate) Gov. sending troops against Russians who are resisting Junta/Nazi takeover of Ukraine along with ... US attempts to econmically and politically take over Ukraine’s Goveranance. The interim Gov. is simply a “doorkeeper” for the US/Eu.

Putin sees his “right” as equal to the US’s right when they stand against countries...Syria,Liya,Egypt,...the difference is this is Russia’s border and area of influence.

The real question is why US is soaking billions now into Ukraine’s Goverance, economically and politically, and the up coming elections. As well sending a vast array of “Experts” from Gas and Fracking people, to environmentalists, to Feds and bankers, and the list goes on...additionally over a thousand “Observers” for the election????

We are the ones taking over Ukraine.....our money, our troops, our teams there and more going.

Russia’s going to fight against this...all the way and whatever it takes to stop the isolation of Russia by Us/EU “owning” the border countries aaround Russia.


26 posted on 04/24/2014 12:22:07 PM PDT by caww
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To: Rashputin

....”where the Kiev folks are exempted from the de-escalation agreement?”.....

They aren’t exempt...they know that...they choose to believe the agreement exempts them and did so from the beginning.

However we are the ones directing Ukraine’s military moves and their governance.

The EU has pretty much dropped out of the picture currently. It’s all our people in Ukraine.

Check here from the horses mouth....all we have and will have on the ground...I tend to think most are there now as Gov tells us after the fact.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/04/21/fact-sheet-us-crisis-support-package-ukraine


27 posted on 04/24/2014 12:34:40 PM PDT by caww
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To: caww

Commies just love to throw out the Nazi bogeyman. Not buying it.


28 posted on 04/24/2014 12:43:17 PM PDT by Sam Gamgee (May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't. - Patton)
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To: Monmouth78
That’s a very misleading account of what happened. Georgia attacked South Ossetia in a full scale, pre-planned operation with the goal of seizing the whole territory. The idea that Georgia attacked SO spontaneously in response to some provocation is false.

It most certainly is not false. There were road side bombs, attacks on Georgian police, attacks on Georgian villages, by "South Ossetians." The Russians then accused Georgia of "genocide" when the Georgian military responded, and then promptly began the murdering.

29 posted on 04/24/2014 1:04:05 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Sam Gamgee

Amnesty International is now condemning actions taken by unelected Kiev government.

“An independent, impartial investigation should be launched into the events leading up to today’s reported loss of life at checkpoints around Slovyansk – if it is found the Ukrainian forces violated international standards and resorted to arbitrary or abusive use of force, they must be brought to justice.”

“The armed group’s hostage-taking amid their seizure of public institutions in Slovyansk and other towns and cities in eastern Ukraine is a human rights abuse, but this must not be met with human rights violations by Ukrainian security forces.”

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/ukraine-security-operation-must-respect-international-standards-use-force-2014-04-24


30 posted on 04/24/2014 1:57:31 PM PDT by caww
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To: Sam Gamgee
we see no Nazis in Kiev...oh really?.... somehow western and European's cant find fascists in Kiev even when they march in this years Easter Parade in the center of Kiev.


31 posted on 04/24/2014 2:00:44 PM PDT by caww
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To: Sam Gamgee

Denial is not your best attribute...

Video of Nazi march April 19 2014 in Kiev.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBDvbgwYZos


32 posted on 04/24/2014 2:03:26 PM PDT by caww
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To: caww
More Nazis,

Oh wait, these are Russians.

33 posted on 04/24/2014 2:06:16 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: tcrlaf

So you don’t miss this... Chilling Nazi march in Kiev over Easter....Starts at 1:10 unless you can translate those speaking...makes you wonder why Kiev Gov. doesn’t stop this????

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBDvbgwYZos


34 posted on 04/24/2014 2:08:26 PM PDT by caww
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To: dfwgator
Well we can at least be grateful the people in Ukraine do see that the Nazi's are alive and well....despite the west denial of. In fact the MSM was told not to even use the world Nazi.

If people can't see this is a war between communism and Nazi’s in Ukraine...along with a proxy war between Russia and the US...then they will miss the whole picture entirely.

The US and Eu have learned, from going into other nations to dispose leadership, that whoever they install on a temporary basis have to be willing and able to be only a “doorkeeper” for them to continue with their operations....which they couldn't control before.

I have real concerns those in Kiev Gov are creating the turmoil so that elections cannot occur and they have further time to consolidate their government more, and acquire the $$$$$$ they covet to sustain their power. They will keep on co-operating with the US until funds are in hand or avaiable to take.

Which is likely why the US is sending so many...(hundreds) of economic and political teams there so that they don't assume complete power. This may very well backfire on the US just the same. I don't believe there will be an election any time soon.

I understand Nazi's from other countries see their chance to acquire Ukraine and many arriving daily (under disguise) to fight. Russia’ knows this is happening as well so using Chechnya's to go against them and root them out. Both are crazy and severely violent groups that are brutal in war and otherwise.

35 posted on 04/24/2014 2:23:16 PM PDT by caww
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To: tcrlaf

Russia: Ukraine must pull its forces from Ukraine.

Rest of the world: wtf?

Is this really happening and is the EU going to do jack shit about it other than beg the US to help?


36 posted on 04/24/2014 2:25:08 PM PDT by stuck_in_new_orleans
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To: UCANSEE2

That’s what “we the people” will be up against. It ain’t quite the way in was in 1776.


37 posted on 04/24/2014 3:00:55 PM PDT by VerySadAmerican
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To: Ciexyz
The US started it by spending an obscene amount of money fomenting regime change.

The U.S. sent 5 billion over twenty years, including during Yanukovich's election, a clear Russian puppet, and other leaders besides. The U.S. spends money like that on a huge amount of developing countries. The regime change was accomplished through the Jewish, Russian, Ukrainian, and other dissidents and the Ukrainian parliament's actions.

FYI, if Yanukovich hadn't of been having people kidnapped and beaten by his hired goons even BEFORE the Maidan protests, he might have still been in power today. The shooting that came later was only the climax of the dictator's actions. A course of action, by the way, recommended by the Russian GRU.

38 posted on 04/24/2014 3:27:21 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: caww

Svoboda and Right Sector poll in the single digits in Ukraine. You might as well appeal to Storm Front and photos of Neo-Nazis in the United States to establish that the United States is a fascist country.


39 posted on 04/24/2014 3:32:26 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
Ukrainians understand that threat regardless if we or others don't...besides look who is sitting in their Gov. currently?.....without polls or an election...and who's running now? Same repeat as before

At any rate when it comes to being brutal and violent who thinks about polls?... They took the Admin. building by force, burned their square down. ,and killed people along the way.... it's Ukraine culture operating and these folks were "peaceful"!


40 posted on 04/24/2014 4:16:17 PM PDT by caww
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To: caww
Ukrainians understand that threat regardless if we or others don't...besides look who is sitting in their Gov. currently?

The people sitting in their government is the Ukrainian Rada, the same one that was democratically elected a few years ago.

without polls or an election...and who's running now? Same repeat as before

You reveal your ignorance. Switch off Russia today and please stop spreading information on this forum when you don't actually have any idea about Ukraine and Russia.

By the way, the Russian controlled Militants, who were the ones not actually elected to anything, do not want any voting or the election for May. They've declared their intention that they do not want it to happen, probably because they're aware of the polling data for East and South Ukraine.

41 posted on 04/24/2014 4:20:27 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

....”Ukrainian Rada, the same one that was democratically elected a few years ago”....

The same ones that got them into the mess they are in today.....you cannot keep electing the same oligarchs that robbed and cheated the nation all along...and that’s what they are doing.

Further Ukraine Gov has nothing to say about what’s happening there now...it’s ALL being handled for them otherwise.

Further it’s more than comical you referring to polls.....they’ll be lucky if they make it to an election at all. But then better for those sitting in office now to consolidate their positions.


42 posted on 04/24/2014 5:35:30 PM PDT by caww
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To: caww
The same ones that got them into the mess they are in today.

Note that you went from denying that Ukraine had a democratically elected government to then declaring that they are the ones who "got them into the mess they are in." You do not operate rationally. But as to your new claim, it was not the Ukrainian rada that had the Berkut kidnap and torture people in the run up to the Maidan, and then later began murdering people with sniper rifles. This was the action of Yanukovich under the direction of the Russian GRU.

you cannot keep electing the same oligarchs

The same oligarchs supporting the Kremlin? Can you name any of them who are members of the Ukrainian parliament, by the way?

Further Ukraine Gov has nothing to say about what’s happening there now...it’s ALL being handled for them otherwise.

What does that mean? Are you saying that the Kremlin is "taking care of things" in East Ukraine?

Further it’s more than comical you referring to polls.....they’ll be lucky if they make it to an election at all.

It's not comical at all. Part of the Russian propaganda war is in painting the Ukrainian government as having no support, and that everybody wants Russia to invade. The will of the people points otherwise. As for "they'll be lucky if they make it to an election at all." You can improve that luck by ceasing your shilling for the Kremlin dictator who is doing everything he can to keep those elections from happening.

But then better for those sitting in office now to consolidate their positions.

More lies. It is the self-proclaimed mayor of the "People's Republic of Donetsk" who has declared that they will not accept any election. It is the Ukrainian rada that wants the elections.

43 posted on 04/24/2014 5:41:23 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: tcrlaf

I’m rather reminded of the Austrian ultimatum to
Serbia, wherein they demanded the right to come on
Serbian soil and arrest and detain Serbs accused of
anti-austrian protests and crimes.

It was the ONE clause that Serbia would not agree to,
it was not long after that that mobilization started
and war by the powers was on.

Coming up on the 100 anniversary in just a month or so.


44 posted on 04/24/2014 7:54:27 PM PDT by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
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To: caww

“We are the ones taking over Ukraine.....our money, our troops, our teams there and more going.”

LOL.

Now, that is a special kind of stupidity.


45 posted on 04/25/2014 2:31:25 AM PDT by rbmillerjr (Russians to the Left of me, Useful Idiots to the Right...)
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To: goldstategop

Yeah, I agree...


46 posted on 04/25/2014 7:39:38 AM PDT by DoughtyOne (Immigration Reform is job NONE. It isn't even the leading issue with Hipanics. Enforce our laws.)
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To: rbmillerjr

...”Now, that is a special kind of stupidity”...

Oh really?....then check it from the horses mouth you dib-wad....count the number of teams from every area of government banking, attorneys, gas and fracking teams, and even environmental groups we’r e sending and are already there...and that’s only what they’re revealing.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/04/21/fact-sheet-us-crisis-support-package-ukraine


47 posted on 04/25/2014 7:22:54 PM PDT by caww
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

I prefer not engaging with you as you take a liberal stance in how you respond by twisting what I say in order to support frame your position.

If I recall right, you have family members in Ukraine and so it’s easy to understand you’re desire would be to support the Ukraine’s Maiden group and those who desire to be under European rule. Unfortunately Ukraine has to choose both Russia and the Eu to work with and must remain neutral...otherwise the country will split as seen happening now.....So Until the current Gov. Leadership is gone the outcry against them will continue.....


48 posted on 04/25/2014 7:44:28 PM PDT by caww
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To: caww

“We are the ones taking over Ukraine.....our money, our troops, our teams there and more going.”

You nitwit. We are invited. The Russian are not. And no you simple sob we do not have troops in Ukraine.


49 posted on 04/25/2014 9:22:14 PM PDT by rbmillerjr (Russians to the Left of me, Useful Idiots to the Right...)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
Here's the current P.Minister ..Yats ....history...read for yourself...he's a millionare and part and parcel of those who robbed Ukraine for years...look closely...he controlled the money!

Sept. 2005 - Aug. 2006 – Minister of Economics of Ukraine. Sept. 2006 - March 2007 – First Deputy Head of the Presidential Secretariat of Ukraine - Presidential Representative in the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine, Presidential Envoy for control over the activity of the Security Service of Ukraine . Member of Council of National Bank of Ukraine. Mar. - Dec. 2007 – Minister of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine. Member of the National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine. Since 2007 – People’s Deputy of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, 6th convocation. Dec. 2007 - Nov. 2008 – Chairman of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine. Since Jan. 2009 – Member of the Verkhovna Rada Committee on Health. 2010 – took fourth place at the Presidential Elections of Ukraine.

50 posted on 04/25/2014 9:51:29 PM PDT by caww
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