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UKRAINE: Why We Have To Win In Ukraine And Putin Has To Lose
FORBES ^ | 4/27/2014 | Greg Satall

Posted on 04/27/2014 7:51:32 PM PDT by UMCRevMom@aol.com

In 1956, Soviet tanks rolled into Hungary. In 1968, they crushed the Prague Spring and in the 1980’s, under Soviet pressure, Poland instituted martial law in order to subjugate the Solidarity movement. Yet today, all three countries are thriving democracies and NATO allies who contribute to our prosperity and security. As the crisis in Ukraine continues to fester, we must decide where we stand. Do we want to return to the dark days of the Cold War or do we want to build on the integrated global order that has delivered peace and prosperity? Do we believe that people have the right to pursue their dreams or do we bequeath veto power on authoritarian thugs? … At one point, one of the activists, the popular Ukrainian journalist, Vitali Sych, erupted: “Did anyone ask us whether we wanted to be part of his buffer zone?” … The popular Ukrainian journalist that Friedman refers to is someone I know well. I worked with Vitaly and consider him a close friend. … So I can say that when he posed the question about whether anyone asked Ukrainians if they wanted to be part of Putin’s buffer zone, it was very much in character… First, while Vitaly was always a strong believer in Ukrainian independence, his support for EU integration is something more recent. After the Orange Revolution he, like most Ukrainians, wanted a more Finnish style solution in which Ukraine was neither in the Russian camp nor part of NATO or the EU. Ukrainians just wanted to be left alone

(Excerpt) Read more at forbes.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: russia; ukraine

1 posted on 04/27/2014 7:51:32 PM PDT by UMCRevMom@aol.com
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To: UMCRevMom@aol.com

We?

LOL


2 posted on 04/27/2014 7:54:27 PM PDT by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: UMCRevMom@aol.com

Uhmmm, Barack Obama sits in the White House. If Ike or LBJ couldn’t do anything, does anyone expect BHO to step up and face off the Russians?


3 posted on 04/27/2014 7:54:40 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (I will raise $2M for Cruz and/or Palin's next run, what will you do?)
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To: UMCRevMom@aol.com

Monumentally awful idea to choose to go to war against Russia on Russia’s border, 1000’s of miles of elongated supply lines away from the U.S., and with 0bama “leading” our troops.


4 posted on 04/27/2014 7:56:36 PM PDT by Southack (The one thing preppers need from the 1st World? http://tinyurl.com/ktfwljc .)
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To: UMCRevMom@aol.com

The prospects of Russia simply leaving Ukraine alone are non-existent.

At the end of day, its not about Putin. The West will still have to deal with Russia no matter who sits in the Kremlin.


5 posted on 04/27/2014 7:58:26 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: Southack

The Russians have perfected the “Let our enemy defeat themselves” strategy.


6 posted on 04/27/2014 8:00:26 PM PDT by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: Southack

We have no vital interest in Ukraine. Not compelling enough to detach it from Moscow’s orbit.

If the Russian Bear wants it, our options are very limited.


7 posted on 04/27/2014 8:01:06 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: UMCRevMom@aol.com
"...do we want to build on the integrated global order"

No. He must have been talking to the Bush family, rather than me.

8 posted on 04/27/2014 8:03:07 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: UMCRevMom@aol.com

We are getting to see libertarian foreign policy in effect.


9 posted on 04/27/2014 8:06:13 PM PDT by ansel12 ((Libertarianism offers the transitory concepts and dialogue to move from conservatism, to liberalism)
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To: ansel12

Not libertarian. Simply a reflection of the reality Americans no longer can or want to be the world’s policeman.

What are we fighting for over Ukraine? Its been under Moscow’s influence for centuries. America’s security won’t be impacted by what happens there.

Americans have heard the Cold Warriors make their case. They simply don’t care.


10 posted on 04/27/2014 8:11:03 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: UMCRevMom@aol.com

......”all 3 countries are thriving democracies”....

BS, “thriving democracies” will fight when invaded!! A nation of cowards cannot thrive!

For the most part, the so called men in these countries are pacifists, socialists, marxists, wussifists who absolutely refuse to pick up a rifle and stand a post!

500,000 American sons have already died for the bastards in WW II and tens of thousands more in WWI. To hell with them. Putin can have em all.


11 posted on 04/27/2014 8:11:24 PM PDT by Cen-Tejas (it's the debt bomb stupid!)
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To: UMCRevMom@aol.com
I suggest Mr. Satall lead his light brigade charge into the valley. There is NO WAY the US can get involved in a land war in Europe or Asia, period, end of story.

What is even more pathetic is watching our comrade in chief voicing threats which his ass cannot cover. We pushed back against the Ruskies in Serbia in 94, they waited till we devolved into a paper tiger and now return to a playing field of their making, tanned, ready and rested while we frittered away our overwhelming superiority.

12 posted on 04/27/2014 8:14:04 PM PDT by Mouton (The insurrection laws perpetuate what we have for a government now.)
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To: cripplecreek
We?

Why would you laugh? You mean you're not a member of an old banking family or one of its agents?

13 posted on 04/27/2014 8:16:48 PM PDT by Stentor (Maybe the Goldman Sachs thing is just a coincidence. /S)
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To: UMCRevMom@aol.com
Obama sits in the whitehut. My son is of fighting age.

no.

14 posted on 04/27/2014 8:17:09 PM PDT by Ghost of SVR4 (So many are so hopelessly dependent on the government that they will fight to protect it.)
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To: goldstategop
Not libertarian. Simply a reflection of the reality Americans no longer can or want to be the world’s policeman.

Yup, we're flat ass busted and going further into debt won't help anyone.
15 posted on 04/27/2014 8:17:22 PM PDT by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: UMCRevMom@aol.com

“fantastical Eurasian ideal”
I thought we were at war with Eastasia.
I don’t know if we can afford another one.


16 posted on 04/27/2014 8:19:09 PM PDT by tumblindice (America's founding fathers: all armed conservatives)
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To: Stentor

LOL fraid not.

I’m planning to die destitute under a bridge somewhere.


17 posted on 04/27/2014 8:19:20 PM PDT by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: Mouton

Yup. In case Mr. Satell hasn’t heard, the US military is being slashed to the bone.

We can no longer fight two wars let alone one. Ukraine is Russia’s headache, not ours.

And a lot of us prefer to stay out of it.


18 posted on 04/27/2014 8:20:07 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: goldstategop

Yes, libertarian.

Obama is giving us a look into libertarianism on a number of levels, from making gay marriage and homosexuals equal in the military and federal employment and immigration, to reducing the military, to a passive foreign policy.

Personally, I see this as something we will be regretting greatly in a few years.


19 posted on 04/27/2014 8:24:40 PM PDT by ansel12 ((Libertarianism offers the transitory concepts and dialogue to move from conservatism, to liberalism)
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To: ansel12

The Ukrainians moreso, seeing as how they’re the ones who will be butchered and subjugated, not the United States (though we may come later).


20 posted on 04/27/2014 8:33:41 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: UMCRevMom@aol.com
I love how our media leaves out KEY issues about this.

1) Three and a half months ago Ukraine citizens voted against joining the E.U. This is NOT because they love Russia, but because the Euro is collapsing, and they do not want to get stuck with all that debt.

http://rt.com/news/eu-ukraine-agreement-reaction-125/

2) Then a top U.S. State Department gets caught (right before the Olympics) about planning a coup d’état since Ukraine did not join the E.U.

http://www.thewire.com/politics/2014/02/state-department-official-caught-tape-saying-f-eu/357812/

3) The media then calls the National Socialist they are supporting “Freedom Fighters”

4) The coup is successful and then the media calls ANYONE OPPOSING the coup “A Terrorist”. Who is terrorizing who?

5) Many of the people we are supporting are Nazis.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/there-are-no-neo-nazis-in-the-ukraine-and-the-obama-administration-does-not-support-fascists/5370269

This would be a war about Natural Gas. It has NOTHING to do with freedom. We are broke too and this is not our fight.

21 posted on 04/27/2014 8:35:38 PM PDT by Enlightened1
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To: Enlightened1

All Ukrainians have to do is look at Greece to see what their future in the EU will be.


22 posted on 04/27/2014 8:36:24 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: goldstategop

The prospects of Russia simply leaving Ukraine alone are non-existent.

At the end of day, its not about Putin. The West will still have to deal with Russia no matter who sits in the Kremlin.


Nope. At the end of the day it is all about Putin. He simply can’t have an independent and modern Ukraine next door while his kleptocracy drains the milk from Mother Russia.


23 posted on 04/27/2014 8:41:20 PM PDT by lodi90
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To: dfwgator

Would you rather be in Iraq or Greece? Al Qaeda in Ukraine makes this not a tough choice for all but the dimmest bulbs.


24 posted on 04/27/2014 8:43:24 PM PDT by lodi90
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To: lodi90

How about Ukraine being independent of the EU AND Russia.


25 posted on 04/27/2014 8:44:29 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: UMCRevMom@aol.com

I don’t think there’s any real ‘win’ option in Ukraine. Only ‘worst’ (Putin annexes Ukraine) and ‘less bad’. Even if Putin backs off and hides in the corner, it will be business as usual for the Ukrainian oligarchs.

They have infiltrated the new government the same way they infiltrated the Orange Revolution, releasing Tymoshenko and stacking the government with their allies.

They and their political pawns have to be removed before freedom and prosperity can truly emerge in Ukraine.


26 posted on 04/27/2014 8:44:56 PM PDT by Corporate Democrat
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To: dfwgator

How about Ukraine being independent of the EU AND Russia.


Sounds good to me. The tin pot mafia Russians can GTFO. Ukraine has enough problems without them.


27 posted on 04/27/2014 8:48:19 PM PDT by lodi90
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To: cripplecreek

We need to win and government need to lose.


28 posted on 04/27/2014 8:53:23 PM PDT by demshateGod (The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.)
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To: dfwgator
Greece per capita GDP: $22456
Ukraine per capita GDP: $3867
Ukraine wishes they were Greece.
29 posted on 04/27/2014 9:10:26 PM PDT by Chad_the_Impaler
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To: UMCRevMom@aol.com

Solidarity would have taken hold in Poland a lot sooner, but they kept writing “solidarnosc” on their signs and nobody knew what the hell they were talking about.


30 posted on 04/27/2014 9:11:27 PM PDT by edpc (Wilby 2016)
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To: UMCRevMom@aol.com

Ukraine is about to tank, join the EU and that is where they will be. The EU has destroyed more economies than any war. Just look at the long line of nations that are in financial trouble since they joined the EU. We need to stay out of this mess and so does Russia.


31 posted on 04/27/2014 9:16:49 PM PDT by Busko (The only thing that is certain is that nothing is certain.)
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To: Enlightened1

Your points are not enlightened.


32 posted on 04/27/2014 9:18:01 PM PDT by FreeReign
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To: Ghost of SVR4
. My son is of fighting age. no.

I don't see anywhere in the article where the author says we should send troops to Ukraine.

33 posted on 04/27/2014 9:25:18 PM PDT by FreeReign
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To: cripplecreek

I once read an article written by Soldier of Fortune that said ‘violence solves everything’.


34 posted on 04/27/2014 9:30:14 PM PDT by Usagi_yo
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To: lodi90
Al Qaeda in Ukraine makes this not a tough choice for all but the dimmest bulbs.

Will Uncle Scam arm Al-Qaeda in Ukraine with the same advanced anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles as Uncle Scam is arming Christian slaughtering Al-Qaeda in Syria?

35 posted on 04/27/2014 9:30:56 PM PDT by Count of Monte Fisto (The foundation of modern society is the denial of reality.)
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To: Enlightened1; All

“I love how our media leaves out KEY issues about this.
1) Three and a half months ago Ukraine citizens voted against joining the E.U. This is NOT because they love Russia, but because the Euro is collapsing, and they do not want to get stuck with all that debt.

http://rt.com/news/eu-ukraine-agreement-reaction-125/

2) Then a top U.S. State Department gets caught (right before the Olympics) about planning a coup d’état since Ukraine did not join the E.U.

http://www.thewire.com/politics/2014/02/state-department-official-caught-tape-saying-f-eu/357812/

3) The media then calls the National Socialist they are supporting “Freedom Fighters”

4) The coup is successful and then the media calls ANYONE OPPOSING the coup “A Terrorist”. Who is terrorizing who?

5) Many of the people we are supporting are Nazis.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/there-are-no-neo-nazis-in-the-ukraine-and-the-obama-administration-does-not-support-fascists/5370269

This would be a war about Natural Gas. It has NOTHING to do with freedom. We are broke too and this is not our fight.”

GO FURTHER BACK:

The main beneficiary of Obama’s Destabilization of Tunisia, Libya, and Egypt was TOTAL-FINA, and The Soros Group.

Assad said no to the Saudi pipeline through Syria and Turkey to Europe, providing a Direct gas link to the EU.

Obama “Suddenly” wants to intervene in the 2 year old Syrian Civil War shortly thereafter.

Putin throws a thin line of ships in front of him and says “NYET!”. Obama retreats, and the term “Red Line” becomes a non-word to the US Mainstream Media. Dem pundits go on TV saying “there are other ways to get at Putin”. Putin HAS DARED to publicly diss “THE MESSIAH!”, and that cannot be allowed to stand.

Taxpayer money being thrown at destabilizing Ukraine suddenly rise, primarily through direct funding the NGO’s of the Renaissance Group(Soros), The Omidyar Network, and USAID, who gave money directly to revolutionary groups like Right Sector, Svoboda, etc.

Russian Intelligence isn’t stupid, still relies on Humint, and they know most everything that is going on in Ukraine. Putin makes contingencies if the government falls, namely to move on Crimea.

The Gov falls, and Obama unwittingly hands Putin a historic opportunity on a silver platter, the justified (in their minds) chance to move on Crimea.

That the Southeast of the country could follow, was clear to anybody paying attention, that even the slightest knowledge of events in Ukraine.

Which brings us to today.


36 posted on 04/27/2014 9:40:26 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
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To: UMCRevMom@aol.com

or do we want to build on the integrated global order that has delivered peace and prosperity?
******
IOW: Accept globalism, New One World order(fascism) and they’ll give you a few bucks. Just need forfeit with the Bill of Rights.

These Forbes people have lost their way. Damn shame.


37 posted on 04/27/2014 9:42:25 PM PDT by Finalapproach29er (luke 6:38)
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To: edpc

A Pole finds an oil lamp in a pile of rubbish. It’s very rusty so he rubs it. Out comes a genie!
“You know the drill.” says the genie.
“No, I don’t!”
“You get three wishes. Make ‘em good.”

“Ok. For my first wish, I want the Chinese army to invade Poland.”
The genie isn’t sure if he heard right, so he asks the guy to repeat his wish.
The Chinese Army invades Poland, sweeping down on it like Attila the Hun and his hordes.

“All right. For my second wish I would like for the Chinese Army to invade Poland again.”
The genie doesn’t know what to think, but he waves his hand. And here come the Chinese again, running amok across Poland again, taking with them most of what they missed the first time.

“That’s good. Very good. Now, for my last wish, I would like for the Chinese Army to invade Poland one last time.”

The genie is grunting and shaking his head, and says, “They’ve pretty much trashed the place, and this time they’ll probably burn everything standing. And steal your women. I could do some pretty cool stuff for you. Are you sure this is what you want?”

And the Pole replies, “Oh yes! Each time they’re going through Russia too.”


38 posted on 04/27/2014 10:14:38 PM PDT by tumblindice (America's founding fathers: all armed conservatives)
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To: tumblindice

LOL.

A Polish soldier is confronted by a German soldier, and a Russian soldier. Which one does he shoot first?

The German, of course...Business before pleasure.


39 posted on 04/27/2014 10:16:09 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: UMCRevMom@aol.com

Anything to keep Ukraine out of the European Union and the “New World Order”, which needs to be destroyed!


40 posted on 04/27/2014 10:24:43 PM PDT by dalereed
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To: UMCRevMom@aol.com

We win, Putin loses. Noteworthy is the absence of what happens to Ukrainians. Happens often there.


41 posted on 04/27/2014 10:26:04 PM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office.)
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To: Enlightened1
2) Then a top U.S. State Department gets caught (right before the Olympics) about planning a coup d’état since Ukraine did not join the E.U.

There is nothing in the audio about a coup d'etat, nor did a coup occur. The Interim government in Ukraine is the Ukrainian Rada that was democratically elected in October 2012. Yanukovych chose to fled to a foreign enemy to avoid prosecution for his criminal acts. Nor was the United States behind Yanukovych having people kidnapped using the Berkut, or violating the Ukrainian constitution, and eventually shooting civilians. All of this was taken up with the apparent recommendation of the Russian GRU who were crawling all over Ukraine.

3) The media then calls the National Socialist they are supporting “Freedom Fighters”

If you are referring to Right Sector, they have exactly 2,000 members and no members in the Ukrainian Rada. Svoboda, if you want to call them Nazis, poll in the single digits in presidential elections, and are a minority party.

The facts are Ukrainians of all political colors marched in the Maidan, and that includes Ethnic Russians, Ukrainians, Jews, and many other ethnicites.

4) The coup is successful and then the media calls ANYONE OPPOSING the coup “A Terrorist”. Who is terrorizing who?

There are dead Tatars in Crimea, a boy recently had his head smashed in in Crimea also because he spoke Ukrainian to a police officer. There have been patriotic Ukrainians found tortured and dumped in the river, a MP. A BBC reporter had a gun put to her head. Journalists have been kidnapped and beaten. There is a 80,000 Russian strong army on the border. There are Russian GRU controlling rent-a-mobs and long term Russian assets to simulate upheaval, and all of this contrary to the popular will of the people, which poll after poll in the East and South show is that of Ukrainian patriotism, not Russian annexation.

This would be a war about Natural Gas. It has NOTHING to do with freedom. We are broke too and this is not our fight.

This is a conflict within a new cold war, because, in all actuality, we lost the last one when we allowed the Communists in the Kremlin rebrand themselves as capitalists and freedom-lovers, without having the crimes of communism condemned or Russia submit to de-communization.

42 posted on 04/27/2014 10:36:56 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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Comment #43 Removed by Moderator

To: UMCRevMom@aol.com

Sooo,
How long until a some Ukrainians burn down a school in Moscow with all the kids inside?
Or bomb a full movie house?
Or poison a cities drinking supply?
Or bomb the any damn thing Russian?
Like the Chechens ya know it is coming.


44 posted on 04/28/2014 3:01:52 AM PDT by Joe Boucher ((FUBO) obammy lied and lied and lied)
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To: tcrlaf

My friends in Ukraine tell me there is a lot of ill will against the US because of our interference over there

The Obama administration has messed up everything it has touched. As for that idiot Psaki at State and her hash tags it just makes me sick


45 posted on 04/28/2014 3:33:14 AM PDT by Jimmy Valentine (DemocRATS - when they speak, they lie; when they are silent, they are stealing the American Dream)
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To: UMCRevMom@aol.com

Progressives should have thought about this stuff BEFORE 0bama purged the officer ranks then cut the military budget, greatly weakening the Miliary


46 posted on 04/28/2014 4:41:49 AM PDT by Steven Tyler
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To: All
My position is Ukraine and the EU started this mess by overthrowing their own government. Let them and the EU clean it up.
47 posted on 04/28/2014 4:54:35 AM PDT by McGruff (Clinton had his Kosovo, Obama has his Ukraine.)
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To: UMCRevMom@aol.com

Joe, Majority ofChechens are Sunni Muslims. Majority of Ukraine are Christians... ‘nuff said.


48 posted on 04/28/2014 6:18:00 AM PDT by UMCRevMom@aol.com
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To: DesertRhino

“We win, Putin loses”

Define “WE”....
America’s best interests?
Or the interests of the America-hating Radical Academic Socialists currently in charge?


49 posted on 04/28/2014 10:14:33 AM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
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