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Renewables Arenít Enough. Clean Coal Is the Future
Wired.Com | March 25, 2014 | Charles C. Mann

Posted on 05/02/2014 9:54:18 AM PDT by CedarDave

FR is prohibited from posting from Wired.com, title and link only:

http://www.wired.com/2014/03/clean-coal/


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Government
KEYWORDS: carbon; china; cleancoal; co2; coal; energy; globalwarming; greenscam; waroncoal; woc
The title is self-explanatory. Lengthy article on carbon capture and storage (CCS) with diagrams and graphs, China choking in emissions, why green energy will not be the entire solution for the rest of the century, and why coal will remain a fossil fuel source for the world, especially the third-world.
1 posted on 05/02/2014 9:54:18 AM PDT by CedarDave
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To: CedarDave

Someone needs to find the courage to reverse Bill Clinton’s order making the vast clean coal reserves in Utah a National Monument.


2 posted on 05/02/2014 10:00:10 AM PDT by Baynative (How much longer will the media be able to prop up this administration?)
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To: CedarDave

To use it here would require completely dismantling the EPA branch of government.

The local power plant wanted to buy into a new coal fired facility so we’d get a cut rate on power. It was going to be built regardless. The Greenies went apesh*t. You’d have thought if we did it they’d all be shot the next day. I can’t remember seeing such hysteria. Locally we have the state government, the city government, the county government and a bunch of federal offices along with several colleges and state universities. There hasn’t been a Republican in office since after the Civil War. Needless to say the resolution was soundly defeated. Now our power costs are significantly higher. Go green...(/s)


3 posted on 05/02/2014 10:02:38 AM PDT by Gen.Blather
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To: Baynative

I’d like to reverse EPA and its give-no-quarter regulations (and the Supreme Court which said CO2 could be considered a pollutant).


4 posted on 05/02/2014 10:03:28 AM PDT by CedarDave (CNN: The "Crisis News Channel" - all Flight 370 hysteria and global warming blather, all the time.)
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To: CedarDave

The COMMENTS’ are entertaining.
The liberal greenies are going berserk on this article..................


5 posted on 05/02/2014 10:09:47 AM PDT by Red Badger (Soon there will be another American Civil War. Will make the first one seem like a Tea Party........)
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To: CedarDave

“renewables” aren’t effective.

Clean coal may be part of the answer, but it will not be the whole answer.


6 posted on 05/02/2014 10:14:06 AM PDT by MortMan (With friends like these, who is needing enemas?)
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To: CedarDave

When the gas runs out, and you’re in the cold, who you gonna call? Clean coal!


7 posted on 05/02/2014 10:18:48 AM PDT by MUDDOG
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To: CedarDave
...China choking in emissions...

Boy,ain't *that* the truth.I've been to China several times.Several times *recently* (the last four years).Most of my travels were in the regions within a couple of hours of Hong Kong...the southeastern part of the country.I've heard it said that that's the most prosperous part of the country. The clearest days I ever saw there were 20 worse than the worst day I've ever seen in LA...and I've seen some nasty ones there.The same is true of Hong Kong...they get pollution from neighboring parts of mainland China.

For every reasonably (or very) clean coal fired plant that we shut down the Chinese open 20 of the dirtiest,filthiest plants imaginable.

8 posted on 05/02/2014 10:25:56 AM PDT by Gay State Conservative (Stalin Blamed The Kulaks,Obama Blames The Tea Party)
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To: CedarDave

were 20 worse = were 20 times worse


9 posted on 05/02/2014 10:27:02 AM PDT by Gay State Conservative (Stalin Blamed The Kulaks,Obama Blames The Tea Party)
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To: CedarDave

When homeowners are allowed to install solar systems on their roofs and sell the energy to the grid at the same rate utility companies pay for electricity they supply to the grid a big part of the problem will be solved.

Someone tell me why I as a homeowner am not allowed to profit generating electricity?

Interject the profit motive for homeowners and watch the savings on electrical demand.


10 posted on 05/02/2014 10:30:33 AM PDT by gunsequalfreedom (Conservative is not a label of convenience. It is a guide to your actions.)
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To: MortMan

Total bunk that renewables are not effective.


11 posted on 05/02/2014 10:31:36 AM PDT by gunsequalfreedom (Conservative is not a label of convenience. It is a guide to your actions.)
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To: gunsequalfreedom

Please provide evidence of renewable energy being used in an economically effective large-scale energy production system. To exclude the economic side of the equation is dishonest.

(Although I should have specifically excluded hydroelectric)


12 posted on 05/02/2014 10:36:09 AM PDT by MortMan (With friends like these, who is needing enemas?)
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To: CedarDave

Renewables will NEVER replace the base load requirements.


13 posted on 05/02/2014 10:44:41 AM PDT by OriginalChristian (The end of America, as founded, began when the first Career Politician was elected...)
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To: CedarDave

The EPA is about the environment like the ACA is about health care. They are political strategies, not organizations working for the benefit of taxpaying citizens.


14 posted on 05/02/2014 11:38:13 AM PDT by Baynative (How much longer will the media be able to prop up this administration?)
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To: gunsequalfreedom
When homeowners are allowed to install solar systems on their roofs and sell the energy to the grid at the same rate utility companies pay for electricity they supply to the grid a big part of the problem will be solved.

Someone tell me why I as a homeowner am not allowed to profit generating electricity?


Do you expect the water department to buy back gallon jugs full of water you got from collecting rain off your roof?

Think of it this way.

There is waste in transmitting electricity over long distance, both in line losses and in transformer efficiency losses.

The power company's not charging you for the KWH you actually use at the back end, they're charging you for the KWH they have to put in the front end to overcome all the losses, plus the amortized cost of the distribution network and it's maintenance.

That you can push back a couple kw at the use point (at what, 120v?) doesn't do them any good. Run an extension cord down the street at that voltage and see how much you get at the other end.

Now, if you can put out some power in the KV ranges the wires at the street are using, then maybe the power company would be interested. That's power they can at least send down the street a ways to your neighbors.
15 posted on 05/02/2014 11:57:02 AM PDT by chrisser (Senseless legislation does nothing to solve senseless violence.)
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To: CedarDave

Carbon capture was tried n a plant here in ND and not that many years ago. The conclusion was that it would take 1/3 of a coal plant’s output to run the carbon capture. I heard that straight from an engineer. So think about that for a second, mandate carbon capture and decrease coal power by 1/3. Then build a bunch of new plants running at 2/3rds non-carbon capture output to replace the 1/3 that was lost.


16 posted on 05/02/2014 12:02:33 PM PDT by dynoman (Objectivity is the essence of intelligence. - Marylin vos Savant)
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To: dynoman
Carbon capture was tried n a plant here in ND and not that many years ago. The conclusion was that it would take 1/3 of a coal plant’s output to run the carbon capture. I heard that straight from an engineer. So think about that for a second, mandate carbon capture and decrease coal power by 1/3. Then build a bunch of new plants running at 2/3rds non-carbon capture output to replace the 1/3 that was lost.

The article points that out. Together with the building of new plants, you have to add in the additional coal mined to fire those plants, all of which contributes additional CO2 (mining plus transportation requires energy). Of course the whole premise of CO2 being the prime cause of so-called global warming or climate change needs to be reexamined. However, even if CO2 is marginalized by science, the Greenies are also looking at cows, oil and gas drilling, natural gas and other sources of methane as being even more dangerous to climate than CO2. Watch for that to be the next big environmental bugaboo.

17 posted on 05/02/2014 12:39:52 PM PDT by CedarDave (CNN: The "Crisis News Channel" - all Flight 370 hysteria and global warming blather, all the time.)
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To: gunsequalfreedom
Total bunk that renewables are not effective.

Effective must necessarily include cost effective. Wind and solar do not yet qualify. When they do, You'll be right!

18 posted on 05/02/2014 1:53:30 PM PDT by JimRed (Excise the cancer before it kills us; feed & water the Tree of Liberty! TERM LIMITS NOW & FOREVER!)
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To: JimRed
Effective must necessarily include cost effective. Wind and solar do not yet qualify. When they do, You'll be right!

Obviously, we need to define terms. I'm not talking about large scale solar. I'm sure we agree on the main points. I got off on a tangent.

19 posted on 05/03/2014 9:33:04 AM PDT by gunsequalfreedom (Conservative is not a label of convenience. It is a guide to your actions.)
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To: chrisser
Do you expect the water department to buy back gallon jugs full of water you got from collecting rain off your roof?

That analogy does not work but you made some interesting points. Do you see no benefit is homes being able to energize the grid at a rate that will pay homeowners at least something to do so?

20 posted on 05/03/2014 9:35:58 AM PDT by gunsequalfreedom (Conservative is not a label of convenience. It is a guide to your actions.)
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To: MortMan
Please provide evidence of renewable energy being used in an economically effective large-scale energy production system.

I most certainly am not an advocate of industrial scale solar.

21 posted on 05/03/2014 9:38:04 AM PDT by gunsequalfreedom (Conservative is not a label of convenience. It is a guide to your actions.)
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To: gunsequalfreedom
Do you see no benefit is homes being able to energize the grid at a rate that will pay homeowners at least something to do so?

It's not up to me to see a benefit. It's up to the power company. It's their grid, their personnel, their equipment.

If you can generate enough power that it becomes in their interest to pay you for it, I have no problem with that. If you can't, but you want to use government to force them to buy from you anyway - that I have a problem with.

Why would you invest in a system that generates excess power without knowing you could get a return on that investment? Or are you one of those people who doesn't want to invest in a proper storage system to make the intermittent power you generate service your usage patterns and instead want to use the grid as a storage medium and have the power company pay you for using their systems to do so?

And why doesn't the water analogy work?
22 posted on 05/03/2014 10:33:48 AM PDT by chrisser (Senseless legislation does nothing to solve senseless violence.)
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To: chrisser

It is a public utility, so not their grid. The analogy does not work because water supplied to the system must be treated for health and safety. A house can add electricity to the grid safely as bunches of homes do every day...but without being paid for it.


23 posted on 05/03/2014 10:19:43 PM PDT by gunsequalfreedom (Conservative is not a label of convenience. It is a guide to your actions.)
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To: gunsequalfreedom

For small-scale, solar works OK if you live in an area that provides enough sunlight. This issue comes in, at the grid level, that hundreds of small-scale producers supplying their excess electricity to the grid-level electricity provider doesn’t alleviate the need for that provider to have the capability to manufacture or procure all of the electricity needed by the grid at any moment. What is economically feasible at the small-scale end (as long as the large-scale provider is required to subsidize the small-scale generators by buying excess power)doesn’t alter the production/procurement requirements at the large-scale end.

Just my $.02, of course!

Have a great day, FRiend.


24 posted on 05/04/2014 5:49:33 AM PDT by MortMan (With friends like these, who is needing enemas?)
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To: MortMan

A good 2 cents worth, good discussion. You describe the problem not just for small scale solar but for wind generation also. Wind has been able to plot some degree of predictability but it is still a pain for the people that manage the grid.

For homeowners in the southwest, solar works great but you can’t put in a system that produces over 80 percent of your needs because it does not pay as a return on investment to do so. That is why solar companies ads pitch reduce your bill and are not pitching eliminate it or make money. The rate is too low. You also lose any credit at the end of the year if you do have a surplus system.

That does not speak to your point. Just adding to the conversation.


25 posted on 05/04/2014 9:26:42 AM PDT by gunsequalfreedom (Conservative is not a label of convenience. It is a guide to your actions.)
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To: gunsequalfreedom

Some pretty good pennies you offer, as well!

Have a great week, FRiend.


26 posted on 05/05/2014 5:08:13 AM PDT by MortMan (With friends like these, who is needing enemas?)
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