Skip to comments.Ukrainian army launches assault on Kramatorsk
Posted on 05/02/2014 3:12:06 PM PDT by tcrlaf
Ukraines National Guard is reportedly storming the eastern town of Kramatorsk. Meanwhile, the army has resumed its special operation in Slavyansk, where two soldiers have been killed.
The assault is starting now, a Kramatorsk self-defense activist has told RIA Novosti by phone. Another activist told the news agency that the National Guard opened fire on self-defense forces.
Dozens have been killed or injured in Kramatorsk, a doctor told RIA Novosti. The medic added that the fighting has now stopped and all of those injured have been taken to hospitals in Kramatorsk and Slavyansk. At least two died on the way to the hospital, she said.
(Excerpt) Read more at rt.com ...
Tweet from "Russian Spring": Urgent: Doctor: In Kramatorsk deaths is counted in 10x Now from captured checkpoints: "Captured are Decapitation on knees"
Tweet from Susan Glasser/Politico:
SEPARATISTS SAY AT LST 70 KILLED IN UKRAINE’S KRAMATORSK, CITY BEING HIT BY ARTILLERY
Russia Today is a Putin KGB propaganda aka Putin Today .
Do you Putin trolls ever stop ?
Putin is a KGB Murderous Sociopath and not someone to cheer on!
Will Putin intervene?
Again, is there another source, besides MaidanPR, covering this story in near-real time, that you would approve of?
If not, just go away troll.
Will Putin intervene?
That is the big question, isn’t it?
The DC and the Ukes have pushed him in to the position of HAVING to react, though I don’t think that reaction will be what everyone expects.
Obama set the precedent for this in Libya. Declare a “No Fly Zone”, then bomb everything in site from the air, and with cruise missiles, with “advisors” on the ground.
They’re giving Russia pretext if the reports of using artillery to kill dozens is accurate.
Maybe you should take a pill and stop bothering the adults.
I can see you’ve both been here quite some time. I doubt you could last for over 5 years each without having established your conservative bona fides.
There are heavily slanted news sources in the world. We quote them on FR. It might be useful to point out the slant, which we do on a regular basis.
But we don’t censor out those news sources. We also oughtn’t (in my opinion) take it too badly when one of us quotes them by posting an article.
For example, I generally take the Ukranian side in this. But I’m not opposed to tcrlaf posting from RT, or ncalburt for properly pointing out that it tends to be a Putin mouthpiece. I can take both bits of information and deal with them judiciously.
I do, however, save my fire for newcomers who grind their monotonal axe for one side or the other, only to leave when their pet conflict of the day dies down. Those folks can be run out of the site.
In the mean time, we can have a spirited debate on the merits, and perhaps even some hard hitting opinionating.
But name calling is a bit much among long time FReepers, don’t you think?
“Will Putin intervene?”
Putin has already intervened with special forces and irregular formations directing the guerrilla operation.
Will he outright invade Ukraine? Difficult question, he clearly would rather not, though he is leaving the option open. He threatens alot, but as we saw in Crimea, when he wants something he just does it, so he is probably reluctant to start an expensive war with possible insurgency and an arm race in Europe. At the very least he would rather reach his goals without a war. Still it is important that NATO does everything to deter him.
With these two cities afire, and the events in Odessa, I don’t see Russia holding off much longer. A week, max.
Now please, we can all read the Kiev Kiddies press releases, what RT has to say, and figure out what parts are BS and which parts aren't. I'm sure it's a shock to you, but you're making it look like the crowd you support are just paranoid little children who are afraid their lie about who broke the cookie jar will be found out.
We all know who broke the cookie jar, the mob in Kiev. Now we're waiting to see who paid to have the cookie jar broken and in spite of your best efforts, it doesn't look like Russians are using their Army to murder protesters in the streets, it looks like the "peaceful non-coup non-mob" installed crowd in Kiev is the one murdering protesters in the streets.
You know, it's not like the people in these cities were bothering Kiev in any way. The weren't restricting commerce or anything. When the EU/IMF said to dance, though, Kiev decides to send in whatever Army units that haven't yet defected. The protesters were threatening what? Nothing.
Now we'll all wait on the official Kiev Kiddies press release which will without a doubt come shortly after someone in the US or EU says they approve of killing protesters with Army troops.
And what would you call somebody who shells a city with artillery?
That's not exactly a peace-monger.
But who’s using the artillery? This thread is about the Ukrainian army assaulting Kramatorsk.
I saw some `self-defense’ militiaman (Russian) in the Jeff Head thread (below) with a side-by-side shotgun on his back.
A shotgun for street fighting? Yikes.
It is now and has always been unacceptable. It diminishes all of us.
Putin will do nothing. He will watch as his followers are murdered—like Bush Sr. did with the Kurds. He doesn’t want a general war he might lose. He is all image and no guts. He best pull back his troops his gambit failed. The hero Ukrainians have won the day. They are the new Soviets! Putin better watch out or they might march on
Moscow and put in a Free Republic like they have in Ukraine (Sar).
Gentlemen, I believe we have now what’s commonly called a “shooting war.”
Propaganda bullhorn: John Kerry attacks RT during Ukraine address
Anyone “rooting” for , or believing anything from the Russian side is no friend of mine or America’s, most certainly. They are also either extremely gullible or Identify as Russians above any other allegiances, American or otherwise.
Ridiculous that these people think we Americans are such fools as to not realize who is fighting for sovereignty (legitimate) and who is fighting for conquest or to make themselves feel important and strong.
That's good artillery shelling evil protesters, it's OK. It's a "good thing". It's not a matter of whether shelling civilians is good or bad, it's a matter of whether or not the targets agree with you. See? Kosovo rule #1 clearly states, "If we kill em' they were bad even if they were infants".
Dig around and get the definition of "ethnic Russian" the Kiev Kiddies have used. You'd be surprised how few people in the Ukraine are not "ethnic Russians" by that definition.
Some of the assault troops will defect and fight the Army units, watch and see. The were told they were going up against hardened Russian Special Forces and when they're wading through the bodies of civilians, the dam will break.
Yeah, I heard the same stuff here about Kosovo, Libya, and Egypt. So please, stop pretending you have any idea who is up to what when the US/EU machine doesn't even come clean on who wrote an email with their name on it.
"Self-Defense activist" = ????
"activist" = An active somebody on one side or another???
"National Guard" = troops guarding an unspecified nation
"self-defense forces" = the forces defending selfies?
So much propaganda in the stories that you can't tell who's who without a secret scorecard.
Babelfish and google translator are of no help.
Yes there is. Can we stay out of this one?
Nothing wrong with posting from biased news sources, but you should at least be able to admit and periodically point out to people who follow your threads that RT is pure Russian state propaganda. Doesn't mean there isn't some good information to be had, just that it all comes through the prism of Russian propagandists.
I actually find it interesting to see the Russian perspective, but let us not kid ourselves about what we are reading. It may be worth posting from MSNBC sometimes too, but we all know that is Democrat Party propaganda.
My impression, and perhaps I am wrong, is that you are firmly in the Putin camp - and that group is generally referred to as Putinista's here and on other conservative sites. Libertarian and Ron Paul sites (and to some extent blogs like ZeroHedge) tend to treat RT as if it were real, unbaised news because they often believe all kinds of conspiracy theories about what is going on in the Ukraine. They think it's all about fiat currency, gold, petro dollars replacing the US dollar as the worlds reserve currency, neo-cons (aka Jews), an Israeli plots, etc. I'm sorry but all of that is a bunch of nonsensical conspiracy theories better left to infowars and sites like it.
It's really pretty simple. Most Ukrainians, not all but a majority, would rather align with the West (even if that means all the bad things that come from associating with the Euroweasels and IMF). Russia just proved, if any proof was necessary, by annexing the Crimea that they are interested in expanding their territory almost no matter what the cost. If you don't believe Russian operatives are in Eastern Ukraine stirring up much of this trouble, you've got blinders on.
There many not be any "good" guys here, but most conservatives are going to be with Ukrainians who wish to lean to the West and get out from under the boot of an increasingly undemocratic (again) Russia. They've lived with a Russian/Soviet neighbor who has starved them, seized their land and generally been a meddling, overbearing threat who is determined to keep the Ukraine in their sphere of influence come hell or high water. Even if the EU is worse in your opinion, the majority of Ukrainians don't have as bad a history with them.
Tcrlaf is a long term member, but has gone full Putinista. Check his posting history. Conservative-Bonafides don’t mean much after Putin’s charm offensive and active measures against our movement.
IOW, you approve of Berkut's use of kidnapping, terror and murder to be rid of the Protestors. Putin would like you to come to Russia and help him beat news editors. Like I tell you in every thread, though you do not care for the truth, the Interim government is, in fact, the same Ukrainian Rada that was elected in October of 2012. There was no overthrow of the government. Yanukovych fled the country to a foreign enemy after he lost all support even from his own political party.
Sadly, that makes our Russian FReepers howl. And then it makes them whine about MSNBC, for some reason (a source where we point out the slant on a daily basis).
Oh, your comment, yeah. Well, you do approve of the Army killing protesters then, right? I mean, you answered a question with a question rather than answering my question so you obviously think that if anyone else anywhere ever slaughtered protesters with Army troops then it's a good thing when the people you support do it.
Thanks for clearing that up !!
Let's hope. But with a CIC that thinks Putin annexed the Crimea from a position of weakness, I dunno.
Yes, stupid, I like the army killing protestors who are able to chant slogans so hard that helicopters drop out of the sky and Ukrainians are spontaneously tortured, shot and dropped in rivers through no human action.
Yeah, but it used to be done with a bit more flair, ala sinkspur and Inspector Harry Callahan. Those were the days.
“”National Guard” = troops guarding an unspecified nation”
National Guard = You can pretty much assume the “National Guard” is the Right Sector-led, Greystone/XE/Blackwater-trained volunteers that many articles have been posted about.
Ukraine can’t really rely on the Army to shoot civilians on order from Kiev, so this is what they have.
Maybe you missed it but Putin invaded Ukraine and annexed part of the country to Russia. The Russians have also been exposed as having troops who fought in Georgia fighting in Ukraine as 'rebels'.
Meaning that Putin's intervention STARTED this thing. The Ukrainians are finally fighting back.
And I say good for them!
“Putin’s savage bloodlust”
The bigger picture presents a MUCH different story, and it goes back to Obama’s aborted attack on Syria, as I have stated many, many times.
Putin isn’t front-running events, he is reacting to them.
And then taking advantage of them. He is outsmarting the Alinsky cabal at every turn.
As I again have said many times, this is Alinsky vs, Machiavelli.
You mean like Russia did in Chechnya?
Sorry, but it wasn't chanting, it was Ukrainian weapons from Ukrainian bases and armories the civilians took over. That's even been in the press releases the Kiev Kiddies put out.
Of course, I understand why people supporting the Kiev coup are upset since they're scared to death some of the stuff the US sent to Syria is on the way to the Ukrainians who don't support them. And I'd bet is is en route since there's no other reason for US ships to be making targets of themselves unless they're waiting on the Coward Muzzie in Chief of the US to tell them to stop and search ships in the Black Sea.
Well sorry Kiev Kiddies, Muzzie in Chief is going to be really busy covering the tracks he left the last time he was supporting freedom loving people who were murdering their fellow citizens.
Too bad, too, I was looking forward to the Tartar SS unit reforming and parading with US equipment as a bird finger to the US Christians who would never support arming yet another Muzzie jihadist scum group.
Now when Ukraine Army units are shelling Kiev, no crocodile tear, ya' hear?
“My impression, and perhaps I am wrong, is that you are firmly in the Putin camp”
Then, you would be incorrect.
I have been looking at the MUCH bigger geo-political picture of what is going on. This is much bigger than just Ukraine, it goes all the way back to Syria and Libya.
There are MANY moving pieces here, and some of them are in the shadows.
That said, RT has usually been Johnny-on-the-spot with it’s reporting. Yesterday, for example, they had stories, videos, pics, and a live blog going of the fighting around Slovyansk at least TWO HOURS before a Western source even put out the first tweet about it.
Thoughtful post, but unfortunately most likely wrong on one important point. Although polling - esp in a country like Ukraine - must be taken with a large pinch of salt, most polls indicated that by the late autumn 2013 the support for the EU treaty had waned, and there was roughly the same support for the Russian customs union as for the EU treaty. But more
Importantly was the large difference in preferences between the western and central parts of Ukraine compared to the southern and eastern districts. That was not surprising given the different histories of these areas. However, the real reason for the different choices may just as well have been economical. The effects of the EU treaty was going to be different for the different areas even if an agreement could have been made with Russia. Thus, a policy that forced Ukraine to chose between Russia and the West was bound to cause severe tensions within
the country. When those tensions brought some of the more extreme forces to the power (in Kiev and in the eastern Ukraine) we had a receipe for disaster. Ukraine may turn into a second Yugoslavia - but this time on the border of Russia. It is quite likely that up until yesterday the large majority of the Ukrainian people wanted their nation to remain intact. Possibly some areas wanted more autonomy, but in all likelihood still be part of Ukraine. But if the latest news are true, will that still be so tomorrow?
Rossiya Segodnya (official name: Federal State Unitary Enterprise International Information Agency Rossiya Segodnya; from Russian: Россия Сегодня, Russia Today) is the official Russian government owned international news agency founded by presidential decree on 9 December 2013. Rossiya Segodnya incorporates the former RIA Novosti news service and the Voice of Russia international radio service (formerly Radio Moscow).
“I like the army killing protestors who are able to chant slogans so hard that helicopters drop out of the sky and Ukrainians are spontaneously tortured, shot and dropped in rivers through no human action”
And, what do you propose for people who beat to death people fleeing from a burning building, while stopping the fire services from rescuing others who burned to death???
Foreigners in the U.S.A. should become Americans and leave former foreign national identities behind.
It's worth noting that the Russian backed thugs, who were the recipients of the burning (and more of that they'll get in hell), were shooting from the rooftops, dropping stones out of the window, and, of course, were trying to claim the city itself for mother Russia through a putsch. Considering these thieves and killers are trying to take over their city, with the police doing nothing, I am in full support of the Ukrainians rising up and killing as many of these SOBs as possible. This needs to be done in Donetsk and in every city where these people are trying to bring the country under the yoke of the Kremlin.
If I were the Ukrainian government, I would be kicking out all Russians, those who identify with Russia, Communists, and Party of Regions members, and making them move to Russia or Crimea.
Then you should probably stop referring to armed combatants backed by Russian GRU as "protestors" if you're willing to claim this now.
Of course, I understand why people supporting the Kiev coup are upset since they're scared to death some of the stuff the US sent to Syria is on the way to the Ukrainians who don't support them.
Remember that between 60 to 70 percent of Ukrainians in the East and South do not support the separatists. Say your fantasy was true and we were worried that the weapons from Syria, and not the Russian ones, got into their hands. That's not a whole lot of people to worry about, is it?
“the Russian backed thugs, who were the recipients of the burning (and more of that they’ll get in hell), were shooting from the rooftops, dropping stones out of the window”
It is also worth noting that the shooting didn’t start until the Pro-ukes/Right Sector drove the hijacked Fire truck through the street barrier as the pro-Russians “Maidan”, injuring several people.
There are MANY videos and pics of that event all over Youtube and Twitter.
Funny how you can’t seem to remember that part, isn’t it? Stroke? Or just selective memory?
So, Ukrainian Citizens are no longer Ukraine citizens if they disagree with the unelected government in Kiev??
That you, Uncle Joe?
It’s fun to read their rhetoric with a fake Russian accent.
Ignoring the stupid statement about Right Sector and imagining for a moment that your claim is true (which, most of your claims are actually false most of the time), take special note of the stupidity of the cycle you are attempting to create in the rhetoric here. If we step another foot backwards, we can say that no firetrucks were hijacked until Russian-backed thugs with weapons forced their way into government buildings to declare independence on behalf of everyone in the city. Imagine if there was a communist insurgency in Houston Texas and the police did nothing about it as they stormed the capital building. Who do you think really fired the first shot? The fire truck, or the armed combatants?
You Putinists have lost all sense of right or wrong, and you seem to think that the Ukrainians should just roll over and be subjugated by the Kremlin.
Funny how you cant seem to remember that part, isnt it? Stroke? Or just selective memory?
I have no idea what you are talking about. I left no facts out. It's just that you, apparently, think that an armed insurrection by a minority of people working for a foreign enemy isn't a provocation that should be met with force.