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Chaos in southern Ukraine: Deadly fire, choppers down and street fighting
CNN World ^ | updated 9:23 PM EDT, Fri May 2, 2014 | By Nick Paton Walsh, Chelsea J. Carter and Victoria Butenko, CNN

Posted on 05/02/2014 8:28:00 PM PDT by Mariner

Slavyansk, Ukraine (CNN) -- Deadly street fighting, helicopters shot down and civilians being used as human shields.

That was the picture that emerged Friday in southern Ukraine as violence escalated amid reports that dozens of people were killed in a fire and still more were shot dead or wounded in street fighting, raising the question of whether the country can stave off a possible civil war.

The violence -- pitting pro-Russian separatists against Ukrainian forces and those who support the government in Kiev -- prompted an emergency meeting of the U.N. Security Council, with Russia demanding an end to what it called Ukrainian aggression and Western powers accusing Moscow of funding the violence.

Russia and the West have squared off diplomatically over the fate of Ukraine, after Moscow annexed Crimea in March following the ouster of Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych. He was pushed from office after months of protests by people upset that he had turned away from Europe in favor of Russia.

(Excerpt) Read more at cnn.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; News/Current Events; Russia
KEYWORDS: antiterrorismthread; isitusimperialism; isitusoccupation; obama; obamasbuttboys; putin; putinsbuttboys; russia; russianimperialism; russianinvasion; russianoccupation; sorosbuttboys; ukraine; valeriejarret; war
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I guess there's two sides to this story.

The first is that Russia has stirred all this crap up and has infiltrated Ukraine with hundreds of SpecOps inciting, arming and organizing ethnic Russians in an attempt to overthrow a legitimate Urkainian government.

The other is that a bunch of Western "Fascists", aided by NATO Security Services overthrew the legitimately elected government and are intent to mortgage Urkranian assets and culture to Berlin.

I have to admit I tend toward the second explanation, but also respect the perspective of others.

1 posted on 05/02/2014 8:28:00 PM PDT by Mariner
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To: Mariner

I will be looking forward to what Hillary has to say about this matter.


2 posted on 05/02/2014 8:30:44 PM PDT by Cruz_West_Paul2016
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To: Mariner

So far the Ukrainian military has been ineffective. If this offensive fails and the “separatists” remain in control of key areas of eastern Ukraine, a separate “republic” will be established and Russia will take control the way Turkey took part of Cyprus.


3 posted on 05/02/2014 8:32:06 PM PDT by allendale
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To: Mariner

If I was in Ukraine, I might have some ability to sort out what side to be on. Since I’m not there, I don’t have a clue.


4 posted on 05/02/2014 8:33:45 PM PDT by demshateGod (The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.)
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To: Mariner

Anyone that thinks Russian operatives weren’t on the ground in the Ukraine, should rethink this issue. Okay, perhaps the West was hip deep in it. They wanted the Ukraine to align with the West economically, and Russian wanted it the other way around.

Did the E.U. line up troops on the Ukraine’s borders when the president favored Russia? Did the E.U. invade Russian space and annex it?

Did the E.U. demand the Ukraine split?

Sorry, I feel very little respect for Russia in all this.

Vlad can play innocent all he wants, and folks can damn the politics and protests all on the Ukraine and the West if they want. There is no equity here, when you get down to it.

Russia has been threatening military intervention. It already annexed Crimea. I’m not feeling all the love some folks are toward Russia.


5 posted on 05/02/2014 8:35:50 PM PDT by DoughtyOne
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To: Mariner
Pro-Russian demonstrators:


6 posted on 05/02/2014 8:35:54 PM PDT by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
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To: Mariner
The first is that Russia has stirred all this crap up and has infiltrated Ukraine with hundreds of SpecOps inciting, arming and organizing ethnic Russians in an attempt to overthrow a legitimate Urkainian government.

How else do you explain the two helicopters being shot down so quickly?
7 posted on 05/02/2014 8:37:05 PM PDT by Girlene (Hey, NSA!)
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To: Mariner

Take the word “legitimate” out of your first premise (just to make it neutral on the question) and I’d say both are what is happening.

But no matter what there is a lesson to be learned here — participating in rebellions is dangerous activity.


8 posted on 05/02/2014 8:37:35 PM PDT by BenLurkin (This is not a statement of fact. It is either opinion or satire; or both.)
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To: Cruz_West_Paul2016

“Reset”


9 posted on 05/02/2014 8:37:55 PM PDT by BenLurkin (This is not a statement of fact. It is either opinion or satire; or both.)
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To: BenLurkin

If they treat Obama like this during all of these debacles,can u imagine what Putin will do if Hillary is elected?


10 posted on 05/02/2014 8:39:50 PM PDT by Cruz_West_Paul2016
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To: Cruz_West_Paul2016

> I will be looking forward to what Hillary has to say about this matter.<

But we already know what she has to say: “What difference, at this point, does it make!”


11 posted on 05/02/2014 8:41:22 PM PDT by Lil Flower (American by birth. Southern by the Grace of God! ROLL TIDE!!)
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To: allendale
So far the Ukrainian military has been ineffective.

They've actually done about as well as can be expected. A significant number of Ukrainian military units had been suborned by Russia. Most of its personnel are conscripts. The equipment is decrepit. Looking back to the mission in Somalia, US specs ops personnel (Rangers, SEALS and Green Berets) lost 2 choppers and 19 men against a bunch of militia rabble, whereas the Ukrainians have lost men mainly to defections, despite (1) difficulties with Benedict Arnolds, (2) equipment issues, (3) training issues and (4) sheer lack of combat experience.

12 posted on 05/02/2014 8:41:30 PM PDT by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
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To: Mariner
Political/regulator folks and their associated interests have increasingly followed the foreign fascists and commies of the world in believing nothing but their conspiracy theories and tales of world-encompassing plots and schemes. And although the same folks claim otherwise on this side of the world, these are the flags they want to follow.


13 posted on 05/02/2014 8:41:44 PM PDT by familyop
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To: demshateGod

The Ukrainian’s I’ve been in touch with just want to be left alone. They don’t want us there. Neither do they want to live under Russian control. Ukrainians are a fatalistic bunch. Most Ukrainians are for Ukraine.


14 posted on 05/02/2014 8:43:41 PM PDT by meatloaf (Impeach Obama. That's my New Year's resolution.)
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To: DoughtyOne
"Russia has been threatening military intervention. It already annexed Crimea."

I think it's likely they'll annex, in some form, all of Eastern and Southern Ukraine to Odessa (Russian built that city from the first spade of dirt onward) and into Transwhatever.

They'd be crazy not to.

15 posted on 05/02/2014 8:44:05 PM PDT by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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To: Mariner
"Acting Ukrainian President Oleksandr Turchynov acknowledged this week that the central government has effectively lost control of the country's Donetsk and Luhansk regions to the pro-Russian separatists."

If they lost control of "regions" there's a lot more to it than sneaky Russians infiltrating into the Ukraine.

16 posted on 05/02/2014 8:44:50 PM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: BenLurkin
"Take the word “legitimate” out of your first premise (just to make it neutral on the question) and I’d say both are what is happening."

PERFECT criticism and thank you. I noticed AFTER I posted.

17 posted on 05/02/2014 8:45:39 PM PDT by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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To: Mariner

Okay, and what about all the Ukrainian families that have lived there for generations, and consider themselves loyal Ukrainians?

This sort of thing is best left as is. This comes up out of the blue and one side wants their views listened to. And then fifteen years later another side wants their listened to.

Leave things as they are.

Russia lived with this for several decades. They should have accepted it and moved on.


18 posted on 05/02/2014 8:47:07 PM PDT by DoughtyOne
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To: Mariner

Russia started this, they wanted a civil war, and it looks like they may get it. Sad.


19 posted on 05/02/2014 8:48:04 PM PDT by BurningOak (Live Free or Die)
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To: Mariner

I think Russia formented this unrest and then capitalized on it. I’m no fan of Russia.

And I will say this although I may get slammed for it...for those people wishing for CWII in this country, take a look at this conflict. It ain’t the 1860’s anymore. A third party could well be invited (or uninvited) to this country to “help out”.


20 posted on 05/02/2014 8:48:28 PM PDT by berdie
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To: familyop
"these are the flags they want to follow."

I get it.

The Russians and their people in Ukraine are not good guys.

Neither is the other side.

21 posted on 05/02/2014 8:48:32 PM PDT by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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To: Rashputin

Honestly, I’m not convinced of that.

I think there is a lot of manipulated unrest and Russian agents on the ground in the Eastern Ukraine.


22 posted on 05/02/2014 8:48:37 PM PDT by DoughtyOne
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To: Girlene
"How else do you explain the two helicopters being shot down so quickly?"

I know it's not a popular opinion, but the "government" in Kiev admitted over the past few weeks that numerous armories had been taken over in the Eastern Ukraine.

Why is it any surprise that a helicopter is shot down when those armories had to have supplies of both MANPADS and anti-tank missiles? It's not like you have to be some sort of uber brain to operate the new ones, you follow the aircraft, wait for the lock signal, and pull the trigger.

That's exactly why countries worry about terrorists getting them and shooting down airliners, they're easy to operate and very effective.

23 posted on 05/02/2014 8:50:50 PM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: Rashputin
"If they lost control of "regions" there's a lot more to it than sneaky Russians infiltrating into the Ukraine. "

Yeah, that's what puts me closer to the second premise.

I think MOST of the folk in those regions want to be with mother Russia.

Hell, Russia built Odessa from the ground up and has controlled the Crimea for over 2 centuries.

24 posted on 05/02/2014 8:51:12 PM PDT by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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To: DoughtyOne
And I honestly think that if there aren't NATO guys sneaking around over there it'll be the first time they weren't infiltrated into any place there was a conflict of some sort going on.

I don't underestimate Russia and their aid to the separatists a bit, it's just that realistically they don't have to do nearly as much as they're accused of to have everything keep going their way. The Ukrainians have been on the verge of tearing one another up for a long time and now they have the chance.

25 posted on 05/02/2014 8:53:50 PM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: Rashputin
"The Ukrainians have been on the verge of tearing one another up for a long time and now they have the chance. "

Sh!t's been brewing for a couple of hundred years.

There's never been a united "Ukraine" that covers all this territory...and was independent of Russia.

Never.

26 posted on 05/02/2014 8:59:38 PM PDT by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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To: Rashputin

I wouldn’t disagree with that.

Operatives from both sides are to be expected IMO.


27 posted on 05/02/2014 9:00:37 PM PDT by DoughtyOne
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To: Mariner

The self-defense forces of eastern Ukraine are more than capable of holding their own.

Urban combat is not what armies like to do. In Stalingrad, during World War II, the German army was ground up like sausage as the Russians gave no quarter and made them fight for every inch of the city. We all know the outcome.

If the Maidan regime is foolish enough to try it - its downfall is simply a matter of time.


28 posted on 05/02/2014 9:01:42 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: berdie
"...for those people wishing for CWII in this country, take a look at this conflict. It ain’t the 1860’s anymore. A third party could well be invited (or uninvited) to this country to 'help out'."

That's what they're obviously speaking in favor of.


29 posted on 05/02/2014 9:01:53 PM PDT by familyop
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To: Mariner

I’ve paid attention to the situation extremely closely since Fall of last year and done much research.

I believe meddling was and is being done on both sides ( Russia and the West ) but Russia’s security services ( GRU and FSB primarily ) have and are currently deeply imbedded in Ukraine government past and present.

Further, there is Yanukovych’s involvement via his ‘Family’ and criminal cohorts who are believed to be largely financing the ‘protests’ in the East and the South.

Regardless of where the money is coming from, Russia is coordinating and manufacturing instability with the main objectives of creating referendum votes and stopping the national May 25 vote.

Though there are legitimate grievances on both sides of Ukraine, the original student protests for the integration into the EU ( a fantasy for a very long time to come ) morphed into a fight for freedom, democracy, a government and businesses free from corruption/crime. Yes the West in general wanted closer ties to Europe and the East to maintain ties to Russia, BUT neither side wanted or even according to even recent polls want to split or join Russia.


30 posted on 05/02/2014 9:07:32 PM PDT by More Objective than Subjective
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To: goldstategop
"its downfall is simply a matter of time."

A matter of a few weeks, at best.

They're done.

Russia is not going to put up with what's going on, even if they DID start it.

31 posted on 05/02/2014 9:09:39 PM PDT by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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To: DoughtyOne

Obamalini’s administration and the EU were the force behind the initial coup, which got all of this going.


32 posted on 05/02/2014 9:11:46 PM PDT by achilles2000 ("I'll agree to save the whales as long as we can deport the liberals")
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To: BurningOak

“Russia started this,”

Again, that is incorrect.

Russia is REACTING to this, a situation created by the NGO’s, USAID, and the US State Department. That they are outsmarting the Obama Administration’s incompetent ideologues should come as no surprise to anyone paying attention.

To say anything else is simply denying the facts in evidence.


33 posted on 05/02/2014 9:11:47 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
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To: Mariner
"I think MOST of the folk in those regions want to be with mother Russia."

I'm not so sure about that. I think the people there would like to be independent if not still part of the Ukraine. Now, to be sure, Russia wants them to think that's impossible and as of the Ukrainian Army rolling in, the Ukraine government is playing into Russian hands.

An edict from a "government" that was installed by mob rule isn't sufficient to show good faith to people who don't agree that they're the government in the first place. If neutral negotiators of some sort had gone in with Army clearly at their backs things would be a lot different. As it is, there hasn't been any real effort to calm the situation down, just edicts from Kiev in between screams for help from foreign troops.

Once the Army of "your own country" starts shooting at you, though, things get polarized really, really fast. That's why the mob in Kiev who could have waited a few months for elections, egged things on until police were fried alive and someone started shooting demonstrators. At this point, who really knows if the targets were people preparing or lighting Molotovs, people with bullhorns someone thought were leaders, or random protesters?

I for one don't believe a word out of the mouths of the people in Kiev since they lied about the Paratroop Brigade one day and dis-banned them the next. They're clearly no different than the democrat media in our country, they make up whatever they think will get them through the day. The thing is, the mob in Kiev kept ratcheting up the situation until police were burned alive and people were shot.

Now, true to form, the same people the mob put in power have racheted up the situation by sending the Ukrainian Army in to fight Ukrainian civilians. The people now in charge very clearly want a war because they think that's the way to get foreign troops in to keep them in power and they know they can't hold on to power without that intervention.

34 posted on 05/02/2014 9:13:10 PM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: More Objective than Subjective
"a fantasy for a very long time to come "

Yep, that's the truth right there.

Some fascist/communist/imperialist government somewhere far from Kiev will be calling the shots.

For as far as the eye can see.

35 posted on 05/02/2014 9:13:49 PM PDT by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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To: Mariner

Whatever will the little islamist do?


36 posted on 05/02/2014 9:14:26 PM PDT by onedoug
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To: tcrlaf
"To say anything else is simply denying the facts in evidence. "

Yeah, pretty much the case.

37 posted on 05/02/2014 9:15:09 PM PDT by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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To: onedoug
"Whatever will the little islamist do?"

Golf.

What else can be done? We sure don't want him getting any ideas.

38 posted on 05/02/2014 9:18:53 PM PDT by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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To: More Objective than Subjective
BUT neither side wanted or even according to even recent polls want to split or join Russia.

Bingo. New Poll finds only 15 percent in Eastern Ukraine want to join with Russia
39 posted on 05/02/2014 9:19:17 PM PDT by Girlene (Hey, NSA!)
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To: Girlene

They want a federal state. But if Kiev is not prepared to negotiate a new compact, independence is an option.


40 posted on 05/02/2014 9:20:47 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: achilles2000

I know that’s what some folks believe. I remain skeptical.


41 posted on 05/02/2014 9:23:23 PM PDT by DoughtyOne
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To: Girlene
Yeah, look at the source and the science of the poll.

Just who are the people rising up, in the thousands, in Eastern Ukraine?

A bunch of folks that want to join up with Berlin?

42 posted on 05/02/2014 9:23:48 PM PDT by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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To: Mariner

Dozens of pro-separatist people were burned to death today in a building hit with molotovs from right-sektor.

The police just watched. They were ready with shields ready to confront... the people being burned alive in the building.

This article just says people died in a fire.

I think this will have a big impact on the psychology of the region, and convince people of the need for self defense groups and separatism.

If dozens of pro-euro protesters were burned to death in the context of an attack by their political opponents and police, the reporting would be far different...


43 posted on 05/02/2014 9:30:51 PM PDT by Mount Athos (A Giant luxury mega-mansion for Gore, a Government Green EcoShack made of poo for you)
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To: goldstategop; MinuteGal

If Russia makes a move on Ukraine and tries to take it over, they better be prepared for lots of guerilla warfare by the Ukrainians, picking off the Russians one by one or more. The Ukrainians are very good at this as they have been occupied first by the Commies and then by the Fascists, and then by the Commies again. Putin will have his hands full which is why I think he’s been holding back and trying to achieve the same ends by having internal Ukrainian Russians fight his fight for him, with Putin’s aid on the QT of course.

Will be interesting to see what happens, but the Ukraine isn’t going to put up with Putin taking over its last deep water ports, leaving them landlocked. Will be interesting to see how this all plays out.


44 posted on 05/02/2014 9:34:30 PM PDT by flaglady47 (Oppressors can tyranize only w/a standing army-enslaved press-disarmed populace)
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To: Mount Athos
"If dozens of pro-euro protesters were burned to death in the context of an attack by their political opponents and police, the reporting would be far different..."

Yep, but they were pro-Russian. No sympathy from the fascists in Kiev.

Odessa has been Russian for well over 200 years and was not even a city until Catherine the Great named it.

AT LEAST 95% of all development that ever occurred there was done with Russian money and Russian workers.

45 posted on 05/02/2014 9:35:19 PM PDT by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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To: allendale

Going up against the Russian military/intelligence apparatus with Ukraine’s current resources is like David with a broken arm going up against Goliath.

It seems for most new conscripts particularly for the the National Guard, they should train them in guerrilla tactics, create an infrastructure for an underground resistance, and be ready for a partisan insurgency.

I know the East thinks of Bandera as a Nazi, but he was a nationalist ( not socialist ) fighting a partisan war against Stalin’s Soviet Russia. He aligned with Hitler, but if your choice is Hitler or Stalin, who would you pick ( particularly with Stalin wanting to deport ALL Ukrainians and killing mainly through a manufactured starvation about 25% of the population )?


46 posted on 05/02/2014 9:35:27 PM PDT by More Objective than Subjective
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To: flaglady47
"they better be prepared for lots of guerilla warfare by the Ukrainians, picking off the Russians one by one or more"

Fantastic nonsense.

The Russian militias will kill all those folks in the night.

Doll, this is Eastern Europe we're talking about. When this kind of thing erupts, one side wins and the other loses.

47 posted on 05/02/2014 9:39:10 PM PDT by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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To: Mariner
Sounds about right.

blueprint for what will happen in the US southwest and california.

48 posted on 05/02/2014 9:41:19 PM PDT by Eagles6 (Valley Forge Redux. If not now, when? If not here, where?)
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To: Mariner
Yeah, look at the source and the science of the poll.

Really? How about this one? Agence France-Presse: Poll says most in eastern Ukraine region against joining Russia

They don't want to join Russia. Now whether they have the ability to react against Russian troops and their paid insurgents, who knows....but they CAN answer polls.
49 posted on 05/02/2014 9:41:40 PM PDT by Girlene (Hey, NSA!)
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To: More Objective than Subjective
"fighting a partisan war against Stalin’s Soviet Russia"

And killing as many Jews as they could get their hands on. Not because they were aligned with the Soviets, but because they were Jews.

50 posted on 05/02/2014 9:41:50 PM PDT by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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