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Civil War in Ukraine (But Please Don't Call it That!)
Townhall.com ^ | May 4, 2014 | Mike Shedlock

Posted on 05/04/2014 10:26:02 AM PDT by Kaslin

Edited on 05/04/2014 10:27:13 AM PDT by Admin Moderator. [history]

A civil war is underway in Ukraine. Curiously, no one has labeled it as such even though the Ukrainian government launched an offensive, helicopters were shot down, dozens were killed in the process, and military operations took place in multiple cities.


(Excerpt) Read more at finance.townhall.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: civialwar; mikeshedlock; ukraine
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1 posted on 05/04/2014 10:26:03 AM PDT by Kaslin
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To: Kaslin

Six months ago, everything was peaceful in Ukraine. Now we are on the verge of war. What happened?


2 posted on 05/04/2014 10:31:07 AM PDT by Cowboy Bob (They are called "Liberals" because the word "parasite" was already taken.)
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To: Cowboy Bob

Ultimately, we can trace it all back to Barack Al-Obama’s incompetent WEAKNESS.


3 posted on 05/04/2014 10:44:58 AM PDT by 2harddrive
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To: Cowboy Bob; Kaslin
Six months ago, everything was peaceful in Ukraine. Now we are on the verge of war. What happened?

After surging into Georgia a while back---and keeping a part of it for the Federation of Russia---this is Putin's next step in his attempt to bring back the USSR by going to war with all the countries that escaped when Reagan had them "tear down that wall."

See This Link

4 posted on 05/04/2014 10:51:02 AM PDT by Syncro (Benghazi-LIES/CoverupIRS-LIES/CoverupDOJ-NO Justice--Etc Marxist Treason IMPEACH!)
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To: Syncro

I hate being a Putin apologist. And I am no fan of Vlad. But, the Nato countries have been pressing further and further towards the Russian borders. If someone kept moving their guns closer and closer to your border—and you hadnt been making any moves towards them—wouldnt you get a little nervous.

I do not think this is as much Soviet expansion, but a push back against Nato and Europe from encroaching onto what has been traditional Russian territory.

We stuck our nose in his business, and he is slapping it back pretty hard.


5 posted on 05/04/2014 10:55:24 AM PDT by Vermont Lt (If you want to keep your dignity, you can keep it. Period........ Just kidding, you can't keep it.)
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To: Cowboy Bob

What happened is Russian aggression in the face of US weakness. What also happened is the betrayal of a worthless piece of paper signed by both Russia and the US to get Ukraine to destroy its nuclear weapons.


6 posted on 05/04/2014 10:56:47 AM PDT by winner3000
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To: Syncro

Putin is not trying to bring back the USSR. He’s trying to rebuild the old Russian Empire, with himself as a new Tsar.


7 posted on 05/04/2014 10:57:36 AM PDT by Timber Rattler (Just say NO! to RINOS and the GOP-E)
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To: winner3000
What also happened is the betrayal of a worthless piece of paper signed by both Russia and the US to get Ukraine to destroy its nuclear weapons.

Another "Gift" from the Clinton Administration, the same folks who broke up Yugoslavia.

8 posted on 05/04/2014 10:58:46 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: winner3000

How do you betray a worthless piece of paper?


9 posted on 05/04/2014 10:58:48 AM PDT by grania
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To: Vermont Lt

Not trying to cause a fight, but how do you feel about these small countries watching Russia press farther and farther west?


10 posted on 05/04/2014 11:04:01 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: Cowboy Bob
Fascists supported and financed by the EU and US, threw out Ukraines' elected president, by violent force. Their goal was to join the EU and bring an armed NATO to Russia's front door.

They crossed Putin's red line.

11 posted on 05/04/2014 11:10:42 AM PDT by duckln
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To: winner3000
I mean before Crimea. The "occupy Maidan" movement started after the President (Yanukovich) decided to side with Russia, rather than the EU. There were peaceful demonstrations for about 3 months. Then all hell broke loose and now Ukraine is on the verge of civil war.
12 posted on 05/04/2014 11:15:48 AM PDT by Cowboy Bob (They are called "Liberals" because the word "parasite" was already taken.)
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To: Vermont Lt

That “someone” is freedom and us, and the West.

We don’t exist to serve mother Russia and Russian empire.

You are trying to describe a situation where Russia is forced to defend itself against Western aggression, in other words, the same old Soviet line, (and leftist line) of moral equivalency.

Keeping Russia from reassembling it’s evil empire is in ours and the world’s interest.


13 posted on 05/04/2014 11:18:32 AM PDT by ansel12 ((Libertarianism offers the transitory concepts and dialogue to move from conservatism, to liberalism)
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To: 1rudeboy
Before the Kiev coup, Russian influence was the western border of Ukraine. And was for centuries before.

Now the EU and Nato want to make it the eastern border.

Up shot, Russia is not pushing, it is trying to keep the security buffer it has.

14 posted on 05/04/2014 11:19:22 AM PDT by duckln
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To: Timber Rattler
Putin is not trying to bring back the USSR.

Of course he is.

No need to discount this step in his process of bringing back the Russian Empire.

But I can reply like you did:

"He’s trying to rebuild the old Russian Empire, with himself as a new Tsar."

No he isn't, he is looking for world domination.

Looks like we are on the same page, not need for unnecessary disagreements...

15 posted on 05/04/2014 11:20:34 AM PDT by Syncro (Benghazi-LIES/CoverupIRS-LIES/CoverupDOJ-NO Justice--Etc Marxist Treason IMPEACH!)
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To: duckln

Yeah, right. All that Russian talk about the “near abroad” (their term, and they used it for years) was meaningless. /s


16 posted on 05/04/2014 11:24:54 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: 1rudeboy

What’s “Manifest Destiny” in Po Russkiy?


17 posted on 05/04/2014 11:26:49 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: dfwgator

“T-72.”


18 posted on 05/04/2014 11:28:24 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: duckln
That is the same exact line that the World Socialist writes. I can't believe that I'm having to relive the early 70s all over again with the pro-Russia defenders passing out their underground newspapers.

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

19 posted on 05/04/2014 11:29:55 AM PDT by ansel12 ((Libertarianism offers the transitory concepts and dialogue to move from conservatism, to liberalism)
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To: ansel12

Isn’t it funny how the world has evolved? Before, you had to go to a college campus and have some dope-smoking maggot hand it to you. Now you can come to Free Republic for it.


20 posted on 05/04/2014 11:32:50 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: Vermont Lt
I hate being a Putin apologist. And I am no fan of Vlad. But, the Nato countries have been pressing further and further towards the Russian borders.

NATO has nothing to do with it. Ukraine didn't want to become a part of NATO. No side in Ukraine was for that.

21 posted on 05/04/2014 11:35:15 AM PDT by FreeReign
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To: Kaslin

Russia vs Ukraine is not a civil war


22 posted on 05/04/2014 11:35:20 AM PDT by GeronL (Vote for Conservatives not for Republicans!)
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To: Timber Rattler

The name the enemy uses for itself, isn’t what threatens us and the world.


23 posted on 05/04/2014 11:36:07 AM PDT by ansel12 ((Libertarianism offers the transitory concepts and dialogue to move from conservatism, to liberalism)
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To: 1rudeboy

It is mind blowing, and there must be a lot us, especially of the age group and Cold War warriors, and Reagan crowd, that are having our minds blown by seeing all this Russia/Putin worship, and their military goals and interests being placed in front of ours, and even hero worship of the enemy’s leader.


24 posted on 05/04/2014 11:41:12 AM PDT by ansel12 ((Libertarianism offers the transitory concepts and dialogue to move from conservatism, to liberalism)
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To: Vermont Lt
I hate being a Putin apologist.

But then you exhibit the traits of one with your next statements.

If someone kept moving their guns closer and closer to your border—and you hadn't been making any moves towards them
Your knowledge of the Soviet/Russian mindset is sorely lacking

What Putin does out in the open is the tip of the iceberg, his actions not known to you are in the direction towards world domination, same as Hitler's were and Islam is in this time period.

We stuck our nose in his business, and he is slapping it back pretty hard.

Don't include most of here in your "we." If you (and Obama) have his stinging handprint on your cheek that's on you

25 posted on 05/04/2014 11:41:34 AM PDT by Syncro (Benghazi-LIES/CoverupIRS-LIES/CoverupDOJ-NO Justice--Etc Marxist Treason IMPEACH!)
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To: ansel12
It's gotten to the point where our Russian friends accuse us of not evolving. Adding to the irony? Obama's foreign policy ostensibly is "evolved," and Putin's is right from a 50+ year old Soviet playbook.
26 posted on 05/04/2014 11:44:04 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: 1rudeboy

Heh...


27 posted on 05/04/2014 11:45:14 AM PDT by Syncro (Benghazi-LIES/CoverupIRS-LIES/CoverupDOJ-NO Justice--Etc Marxist Treason IMPEACH!)
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To: 1rudeboy
Not trying to cause a fight, but how do you feel about these small countries watching Russia press farther and farther west?

Exactly where is Russia pressing westward?

28 posted on 05/04/2014 11:50:16 AM PDT by Always A Marine
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To: Always A Marine

South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Crimea . . . .


29 posted on 05/04/2014 11:55:31 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: 1rudeboy

Communist Party USA says hands off Ukraine
“The Communist Party USA expresses its alarm at the fast moving developments in the Ukraine, and calls upon the people of the United States to insist that our government back off from a pattern of interference that does not serve the interests of either the Ukrainian or the U.S. people.”

The Communist Party USA demands that:

The United States government refrain from words and actions that infringe on the national sovereignty of the Ukrainian people.
The United States government, and individual U.S. politicians and officials, cease to associate themselves with fascists and anti-Semites in the Ukraine, or anywhere. Rather, they should denounce them and their works.
The United States cease to carry out policies that could well lead to a dangerous confrontation in the Black Sea area, and not give aid or comfort to politicians who wish to create trouble between the Ukrainian and Russian peoples.


30 posted on 05/04/2014 12:08:29 PM PDT by ansel12 ((Libertarianism offers the transitory concepts and dialogue to move from conservatism, to liberalism)
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To: ansel12
Because Obama is so obnoxious and leftist some conservatives tend to look upon Putin as the lesser of two evils. Especially since Putin has embraced Russian Orthodoxy publicly and has denounced the homosexual agenda, in contrast to our government and culture being increasingly hostile to Christianity and supportive of sexual perversion and degeneracy, it is understandable that Russia seems the “good guy”. The French Right had the same feeling when their nation was ruled by a leftist coalition in the 1930s. Better Hitler than Blum (Leon Blum, the French prime minister) was their cry. Perhaps the sudden collapse of French forces in World War II was due to rightist Frenchmen who refused to fight for a leftist regime. The French Right made a huge mistake. Let's hope American conservatives don't make a similar error.

If Russia moves against the Baltic states and Poland, both of which were under their thumb under the Tsars and Stalin, we would be obligated to fight. Would our patriotic soldiers put up much of a fight for Obama or a liberal successor? Better Putin than Obama?

31 posted on 05/04/2014 12:18:54 PM PDT by Wallace T.
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To: 1rudeboy
South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Crimea . . . .

All three of those examples are to Russia's south, not to the west. South Ossetia and Abkhazia were struggling for independence from Georgia well before Russia countered and ceased NATO's meddling there in 2008. Those hardly qualify as conquests by Moscow.

Crimea is absolutely vital to Russia's strategic southern defense, and its seizure was a defensive reaction to the February coup in Kiev. We were dreaming to believe that Russia would allow its sole warm water port at Sevastopol and its surrounding air bases in Crimea to fall into NATO's hands. All that Russia's annexation of Crimea did was preserve the military status quo.

Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, NATO has added 12 new member nations in Central and Eastern Europe, and is now positioned along the borders of Russia itself. I'm still looking for any examples of Russia's westward expansion.

32 posted on 05/04/2014 12:25:15 PM PDT by Always A Marine
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To: Syncro

Well the US backed the revolution.

I know of the Soviet Union much better than most. Putin is not going to attack NATO. He would get slapped back to Siberia.

As weak as our military is getting, the Russians are weaker.

The big battles will be in the banks do Switzerland, London, and New York. And we will get our asses handed to us.


33 posted on 05/04/2014 12:26:33 PM PDT by Vermont Lt (If you want to keep your dignity, you can keep it. Period........ Just kidding, you can't keep it.)
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To: Always A Marine

Good grief. A professor of Semantics, with multiple degrees in Excuse-Making.


34 posted on 05/04/2014 12:27:05 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: FreeReign

But NATO wanted them, and control of the gas lines.

We stuck our nose under the tent. Putin will not tolerate us playing on ground that has traditionally been Russian territory.


35 posted on 05/04/2014 12:28:13 PM PDT by Vermont Lt (If you want to keep your dignity, you can keep it. Period........ Just kidding, you can't keep it.)
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To: Wallace T.

That is based too much on thinking this is something that just suddenly was created in these posters because the republicans are out of office.

This anti-Americanism from these posters didn’t just spring up because we have a democrat president, and while you mention the (mostly Catholic) worship of Putin re installing a corrupt state church that oppresses Protestantism, much of the anti-Americanism is coming from the anti-God libertarians who just want to surrender.

Remember that the libertarians hated Reagan, as did the left.


36 posted on 05/04/2014 12:35:00 PM PDT by ansel12 ((Libertarianism offers the transitory concepts and dialogue to move from conservatism, to liberalism)
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To: Wallace T.
If Russia moves against the Baltic states and Poland, both of which were under their thumb under the Tsars and Stalin, we would be obligated to fight. Would our patriotic soldiers put up much of a fight for Obama or a liberal successor? Better Putin than Obama?

By the way, were you implying that our troops would refuse to fight the Russian strong man?

Are you one of these nut cases?

37 posted on 05/04/2014 12:41:26 PM PDT by ansel12 ((Libertarianism offers the transitory concepts and dialogue to move from conservatism, to liberalism)
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To: Vermont Lt
We stuck our nose under the tent. Putin will not tolerate us playing on ground that has traditionally been Russian territory.

Well comrade, the free world doesn't exist to please mother Russia, and now that Reagan is dead, submit to her aggression and empire building.

38 posted on 05/04/2014 12:43:27 PM PDT by ansel12 ((Libertarianism offers the transitory concepts and dialogue to move from conservatism, to liberalism)
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To: Vermont Lt
Well the US backed the revolution

No we didn't.

That was Obama and his pack of sycophants.

Same as in the Mideast, Obama backed the Islamic terrorists/Muslim Brotherhood. He had to or he would have caught holy he!! from his top advisor, Muslim Brotherhood member Valerie Jarrett.

Putin is not going to attack NATO

I never said he was.

And we will get our asses handed to us.

Sorry I can't relate with a "we" from what Obama does or causes.

No Constitutional Republic Tea Party type Conservative will put up with having their "asses handed" them.

39 posted on 05/04/2014 12:43:40 PM PDT by Syncro (Benghazi-LIES/CoverupIRS-LIES/CoverupDOJ-NO Justice--Etc Marxist Treason IMPEACH!)
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To: ansel12

I always knew that most of Ron Paul’s strongest supporters were isolationists. Didn’t bother me at all. But for them to jump like lemmings off the cliff for Vladimir Putin, when he is acting like a “globalist?” Too weird.


40 posted on 05/04/2014 12:44:01 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: 1rudeboy
Good grief. A professor of Semantics, with multiple degrees in Excuse-Making.

No, I merely asked you to provide examples in support of a dubious assertion that Russia has been expanding westward. You replied with three very weak examples which I questioned. The fact remains that NATO has made three major expansions since 1994 and is now positioned on Russia's borders. Many here now expect Russia to sit back and allow the Black Sea to become a NATO lake, and I believe that is both wishful thinking and dangerous policy.

41 posted on 05/04/2014 12:47:00 PM PDT by Always A Marine
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To: Always A Marine
"dubious"
"weak"

LOLOL

42 posted on 05/04/2014 12:50:05 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: Vermont Lt
But NATO wanted them, and control of the gas lines.

NATO doesn't recruit nations nor do they control gas lines.

We stuck our nose under the tent.

US involvement was/is minimal.

Putin will not tolerate us playing on ground that has traditionally been Russian territory.

Ukraine has every right to ask for help from anybody.

43 posted on 05/04/2014 12:53:52 PM PDT by FreeReign
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To: 1rudeboy

It is one thing to see an argument of how to best restrain and oppose Russian military goals and operations, I did not expect to be arguing with an element that supports Russian empire over NATO and America.


44 posted on 05/04/2014 1:01:51 PM PDT by ansel12 ((Libertarianism offers the transitory concepts and dialogue to move from conservatism, to liberalism)
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To: ansel12

Russia is threatening the U.S.? How so?


45 posted on 05/04/2014 1:01:57 PM PDT by Timber Rattler (Just say NO! to RINOS and the GOP-E)
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To: ansel12

And that’s the crazy thing, isn’t it? “Empire-building” is only bad when the U.S. does it . . . and can someone show me this “empire” we’re building?


46 posted on 05/04/2014 1:04:11 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: Always A Marine
The fact remains that NATO has made three major expansions since 1994 and is now positioned on Russia's borders.

And then there was this little push from 2008:

Bush Vows Support for Ukraine, Georgia NATO Hopes

And folks wonder why the Russians react like they do?

47 posted on 05/04/2014 1:04:24 PM PDT by Timber Rattler (Just say NO! to RINOS and the GOP-E)
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To: Timber Rattler

Why do you think NATO is having to go on alert, that NATO budgets are being reversed to increase spending, troops are being moved, and nations are looking to join NATO for protection?


48 posted on 05/04/2014 1:04:26 PM PDT by ansel12 ((Libertarianism offers the transitory concepts and dialogue to move from conservatism, to liberalism)
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To: Timber Rattler
Because everyone knows NATO is a threat to Russia. Never mind the other FR threads where we laugh at NATO for not being able to do much at all.

In any case, wasn't Russia asked to join NATO (in some fashion)?

49 posted on 05/04/2014 1:07:39 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: FreeReign
NATO doesn't recruit nations...

Well that's a new one to me, given my own personal involvement in the process. The whole "Partnership for Peace" program back in the 1990s was nothing but a recruitment tool for NATO, and we were very open about that fact.

Ukraine has every right to ask for help from anybody.

Of course it does. But it doesn't have any right to expect that help, or to deny its adversaries from doing the same.

50 posted on 05/04/2014 1:08:01 PM PDT by Always A Marine
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