Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Behind the Masks in Ukraine, Many Faces of Rebellion
NYTimes ^ | 5-3-2014 | CJ Chivers and NOAH SNEIDER

Posted on 05/04/2014 12:47:44 PM PDT by tcrlaf

The rebel leader spread a topographic map in front of a closed grocery store here as a Ukrainian military helicopter flew past a nearby hill. Ukrainian troops had just seized positions along a river, about a mile and a half away. The commander thought they might advance.

He issued orders with the authority of a man who had seen many battles. “Go down to the bridge and set up the snipers,” the leader, who gave only a first name, Yuri, said to a former Ukrainian paratrooper, who jogged away.

Yuri commands the 12th Company, part of the self-proclaimed People’s Militia of the Donetsk People’s Republic, a previously unknown and often masked rebel force that since early April has seized government buildings in eastern Ukraine and, until Saturday, held prisoner a team of European military observers it accused of being NATO spies.

SNIP-

Yuri, who appears to be in his mid-50s, is in many ways an ordinary eastern Ukrainian of his generation. A military veteran, he survived the Soviet collapse to own a small construction business in Druzhkovka, about 15 miles south of here.

But his rebel stature has a particular root: He is also a former Soviet special forces commander who served in Afghanistan, a background that could make him both authentically local and a capable Kremlin proxy.

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; Russia
KEYWORDS: civilwar; slovyansk; ukraine; veterans
An in-Depth look by the New York Times about who the Rebels REALLY.

Locals, many with military backgrounds, organized by former military officers. Not a "Green Man" to be seen anywhere.

Would it be any different here? How many 40-50 year old vets would stand up in the same kind of situation? Remember, we are already on this administration's list of people who must be closely watched.

CJ Chivers has been doing actual Journalism during this event, though much of it isn't making the Times, and only appears on Twitter.

1 posted on 05/04/2014 12:47:44 PM PDT by tcrlaf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: tcrlaf
Not a "Green Man" to be seen anywhere.

Except for the ones that Putin admitted he sent (to Crimea).

2 posted on 05/04/2014 12:52:45 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: 1rudeboy

Does that have ANYTHING to do with the story??? NO....


3 posted on 05/04/2014 12:55:48 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: tcrlaf

Prior behavior can be used to predict future behavior. Unless something is posted by you, in which case everything must be set aside and the discussion held on your terms.


4 posted on 05/04/2014 12:57:29 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: tcrlaf
It verify my belief that Putin doesn't need to send in his troops when he has homegrown proxies that can do the fighting. Most are either former Soviet military or recent Ukrainian military defectors of Russian ethnicity.

If Russian troops are actually found inside Ukraine CNN will have to interrupt their missing Malaysia airline coverage to report it.


5 posted on 05/04/2014 12:57:42 PM PDT by darkwing104 (Forgive but don't forget)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: 1rudeboy

Sorry that THE TRUTH cuts right through your EuroMaidan BS.

Or is the New York Times now a “Paid Putinista Propaganda” source?


6 posted on 05/04/2014 12:58:24 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: tcrlaf

THE TRUTH (noting your use of allcaps) is that Putin admitted that he sent Russian troops to Crimea himself. Now, you are to have me believe that he would never, ever, send troops elsewhere in Ukraine.


7 posted on 05/04/2014 1:00:43 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: tcrlaf

These rebels sure are well armed aren’t they.

An amazing supply of AKs, Dragonovs, ammo and uniforms. And no 2A.

A skeptical person might wonder how that all came together so fast.


8 posted on 05/04/2014 1:13:07 PM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: tcrlaf

I’m sure Russia has operatives in Ukraine, but as the article states, clearly most of these people are disgruntled locals. 48% of the voters voted for Yanukovych in the last election. Many of them won’t accept that their candidate was chased out of office in a coup, just like many people in America wouldn’t.


9 posted on 05/04/2014 1:14:35 PM PDT by Monmouth78
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: tcrlaf; 1rudeboy
Sorry that THE TRUTH cuts right through your EuroMaidan BS.

There is nothing here that disproves Russian GRU presence in Eastern Ukraine, which has already been well established with communication interceptions, people arrested carrying money and communications equipment coming into Ukraine, numerous photos of well armed troops in uniform, even seen in Crimea and later in East Ukraine, coordinating assaults before leaving things to the astro-turf.

At this point, it appears FRs Putinistas are getting desperate.

10 posted on 05/04/2014 1:15:05 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Monmouth78
I’m sure Russia has operatives in Ukraine, but as the article states, clearly most of these people are disgruntled locals. 48% of the voters voted for Yanukovych in the last election. Many of them won’t accept that their candidate was chased out of office in a coup, just like many people in America wouldn’t.

There was no coup. The interim government in Ukraine is the Ukrainian Rada that was democratically elected in 2012. Yanukovych did not run on a Pro-annexation, Anti-EU platform, and his party turned on him. 65 to 75 percent in multiple polls in the East and South show an overwhelming majority oppose annexation and separatism, including polls taken as recently as this month.

11 posted on 05/04/2014 1:17:30 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

FR Needs Donors To Survive

Please Donate!

12 posted on 05/04/2014 1:20:47 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW (The Fed Gov is not one ring to rule them all)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
There is nothing here that disproves Russian GRU

If the GRU, CIA, MI6 and other covert agencies weren't inside Ukraine I would be amazed. As for the communications intercepts, I don't think the GRU would be that sloppy.


13 posted on 05/04/2014 1:24:21 PM PDT by darkwing104 (Forgive but don't forget)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: SampleMan

“A skeptical person might wonder how that all came together so fast.”

Slovyansk sits on top of the largest cache of Soviet-Era infantry weapons in the old Soviet Union, the Volodarsky salt mine, that the rebels have had control of since March.

The area was supposed to be a rally point for Several Soviet Third_Wave Infantry Divisions, if the balloon ever went up.


14 posted on 05/04/2014 1:27:28 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

You fail to grasp that there is a position in between outright successionism and support for the coup regime.


15 posted on 05/04/2014 1:27:40 PM PDT by Monmouth78
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

You say Po-Ta-To, the rest of the world says potato.

It was a coup. To say anything else is just ridiculous spin.


16 posted on 05/04/2014 1:31:49 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: darkwing104

“As for the communications intercepts, I don’t think the GRU would be that sloppy”

The rebels are using CB’s and Ham Radios to communicate with each other.

if FSB/GRU were there, they would be using encrypted equipment that only the NSA could read.


17 posted on 05/04/2014 1:33:21 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: tcrlaf

They don’t like or trust the Western Ukrainians who now run Kiev.

People in the East want to be allowed to run their own lives. But the Maidan regime seems to be doing everything to push them into Russia’s arms.


18 posted on 05/04/2014 1:38:36 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

The Party Of Regions doesn’t see its demands being addressed. Both ethnic Ukrainians and Russians in the East want a federal state. If they don’t get it, the country will break up.

So far they have heard nothing from Kiev but vague promises. People want change and that demand is not coming not Moscow or being orchestrated by it.


19 posted on 05/04/2014 1:42:40 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: tcrlaf
It was a coup. To say anything else is just ridiculous spin.

You're changing the meaning of the word coup.

Power wasn't seized by FORCE. Yanukovich signed off on early elections and then he left the country.

20 posted on 05/04/2014 1:45:58 PM PDT by FreeReign
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Monmouth78
You fail to grasp that there is a position in between outright successionism and support for the coup regime.

Since there was not a coup, such a position cannot exist.

21 posted on 05/04/2014 1:58:02 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: goldstategop
The Party Of Regions doesn’t see its demands being addressed. Both ethnic Ukrainians and Russians in the East want a federal state. If they don’t get it, the country will break up. So far they have heard nothing from Kiev but vague promises. People want change and that demand is not coming not Moscow or being orchestrated by it.

"In Ukraine, the prospect of federalization emerged during the 2004 Orange Revolution when former President Viktor Yanukovych proposed a referendum on the matter. He pursued federalization again in 2010, but it was tabled again after Yanukovych's pro-Russia Party of Regions deemed it "too expensive and problematic."

Today, only 14 percent of Ukrainians support federalization, according to a recent poll. As the Washington Post points out, the idea is more popular in the southern and eastern regions, where 22 percent and 26 percent, respectively, support the creation of a federal state, compared to 3 percent in the west."

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/117284/federalized-ukraine-could-mean-return-novorossiya

While the EuroMaidan protests called for more independence for the regions, federalization was not the solution they were asking for, nor is there popular support in the East and South for federalization or the actions of the separatists. You are inventing this and pretending as if Kyiv is trying to thwart the will of the people to be become satellite states of Russia.

22 posted on 05/04/2014 2:06:32 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: tcrlaf

Good thing the Ukrainians left a major arms stockpile unlocked and unguarded for them then, right?

You’ve convinced me, Putin isn’t involved at all, and these happy go lucky freedom fighters are probably just gentlemen farmers who read Voltaire in their free time.

Seriously, when these men are done, Putin will be the winner. No talk in the article of any organization up from company level. Wonder why that is? Are they really totally autonomous? If so, they’ll be easily flanked. If not, who’s in charge?


23 posted on 05/04/2014 2:07:41 PM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: tcrlaf
You say Po-Ta-To, the rest of the world says potato.

Remember, part of the Putinista spiel is that the world is run by an evil NATO/EU/Soros/Illuminati group of bankers and neo-conservatives and other groups who are conspired to take over Ukraine and destroy glorious Russia, the last bastion of conservatism. If you say "the rest of the world," your feedback loop should point you to the response "The West is united against Russia." There's a contradiction here.

It was a coup. To say anything else is just ridiculous spin.

You Putinistas keep repeating this, over and over again, but none of you have ever been able to rationally explain in any way HOW it is a clue, without, of course, retreating to lies from RT about a government take over by Nazis.

What I have said is a fact, and you cannot dispute it. The government in Kyiv is a Ukrainian government of democratically elected members of parliament, whose first order of business was to declare a new election for May, which the Kremlin is actively opposing.

24 posted on 05/04/2014 2:12:08 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: tcrlaf

Let’s get straight to the central issue with a question.

Do you deny the Russian Government has invaded the territory of the Ukraine with Russian military forces and are using these Russian military forces to overthrow the Ukrainian local governments with the assistance of pro-Russian separatists from the Ukraine, Russia, and Transnistria?


25 posted on 05/04/2014 2:35:18 PM PDT by WhiskeyX
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
I think you accurately characterized the positions coming from Internet Moscow.
The Russians have a full court propaganda press going on, just like when the Russians invaded Georgia, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Poland.
They repeat disinformation and utter fabrication continually and seek to outshout any criticism or analysis.
TWB
26 posted on 05/04/2014 2:38:15 PM PDT by TWhiteBear (Sarah Palin, the Flame of the North)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: tcrlaf

Look, I’ve found myself arguing about the same facts on this issue and getting nowhere. My conclusion is that there is a large number of elderly freepers whose minds can’t past the Cold War and the Reagan Era. Russia isn’t the USSR and Obamalini and the EU aren’t Reagan and Thatcher. Of course there was a coup, but the codger brigade wasn’t reading about Ukraine in the run-up to Maidan or even after. They have no clue who Victoria Nuland is or what the issue was that set this all in motion. All they know is they hate those Ruskies, and anybody who doesn’t agree must be a secret member of the Commintern.

In the meantime, while they are all spun up over the “Russian threat”, Obama simply proceeds with his perfidious agenda at home.


27 posted on 05/04/2014 2:48:27 PM PDT by achilles2000 ("I'll agree to save the whales as long as we can deport the liberals")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Neocons: out of touch with reality as ever.


28 posted on 05/04/2014 2:50:18 PM PDT by Monmouth78
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Monmouth78

Putinistas: Anti-American conspiracy theorists who can’t defend their stupid assertions.


29 posted on 05/04/2014 3:04:58 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: SampleMan
Good thing the Ukrainians left a major arms stockpile unlocked and unguarded for them then, right?

Not everyone in Ukraine's military is sympathetic to the fascist Junta that seized power. Many of them, particularly in the east voted for Yanukovich and probably turned a blind eye when weapons disappeared from armories they were guarding.

30 posted on 05/04/2014 3:08:50 PM PDT by Drew68
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Drew68; SampleMan

“Good thing the Ukrainians left a major arms stockpile unlocked and unguarded for them then, right?”

Pretty much, that is exactly what happened. Google it, there are many articles about it from March.

Also, don’t forget the the Slavyansk group also got the weapons and APC’s of a Ukrainian Airborne Brigade that surrendered to the Rebels, including a TOW APC, an AA Missile APC, and a Truck-Mounted AA Gun.


31 posted on 05/04/2014 3:15:26 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: tcrlaf

Igor Strelkov, enough said


32 posted on 05/04/2014 3:16:12 PM PDT by Ivan Mazepa
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: tcrlaf

Not a Brigade, a company. OOPS...


33 posted on 05/04/2014 3:16:36 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: achilles2000

“or what the issue was that set this all in motion.”

The aborted Syria attack....


34 posted on 05/04/2014 3:19:05 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Drew68
Not everyone in Ukraine's military is sympathetic to the fascist...

Ok, I'll bite. What form of government does Russia have?

35 posted on 05/04/2014 3:27:48 PM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Yawn. Neocons are dangling above the dustbin of history. It’s going to be a long fall into disgrace and irrelevance.


36 posted on 05/04/2014 3:50:08 PM PDT by Monmouth78
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: SampleMan
Ok, I'll bite. What form of government does Russia have?

One that was elected though a democratic process, which is more than Ukraine can claim right now.

37 posted on 05/04/2014 4:16:37 PM PDT by Drew68
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: tcrlaf

Remember that the Obama Administration appears to see the Maidan issue as a distraction and embarrassment. Russia conquering Ukraine will make the problem go away, and will also absolve the IMF, World Bank, and EU of having to babysit the Ukraine (which they did not want to do in the first place because their economies are awful to begin with).


38 posted on 05/04/2014 4:18:24 PM PDT by Thunder90 (All posts soley represent my own opinion.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Drew68

That’s hogwash of a new order. When the top opposition is Kremlin controlled, there are no ‘democratic’ elections.

The KPRF... Not a legit opposition group
the Nationalists... Not a legit opposition Group
Our Russia.... Putin’s party (duh)


39 posted on 05/04/2014 4:22:13 PM PDT by Thunder90 (All posts soley represent my own opinion.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: Drew68

Has flag


40 posted on 05/04/2014 4:22:43 PM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: Drew68

Same democratic process used in the USSR? Vote for us, or vote for us.


41 posted on 05/04/2014 4:54:16 PM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: Monmouth78

Yawn. The stupid Putinists who think that anyone who isn’t anti-American is a “Neo-Con’ [a Jew] will be the death of this country. They’re the recruits, joining the left in new useful idiocy.


42 posted on 05/04/2014 5:05:15 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: Drew68
Not everyone in Ukraine's military is sympathetic to the fascist Junta that seized power.

How many times now have we seen this asserted in this same thread? Tell me troll, is the Interim government of Ukraine the very same that was democratically elected in 2012, yes or no?

43 posted on 05/04/2014 5:07:44 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: Drew68
You do know Putin got 99.5% of the vote in Chechnya right? And this was just 2 years ago.

Some democratic process they have over there.

44 posted on 05/04/2014 6:07:32 PM PDT by Corporate Democrat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: SampleMan

No talk in the article of any organization up from company level. Wonder why that is?


They are disposable dupes. Like millions before them. Dead enders whose “leaders” have bugged out back to Donetsk and Russia leaving them as body count bait.


45 posted on 05/04/2014 7:07:28 PM PDT by lodi90
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Corporate Democrat
You do know Putin got 99.5% of the vote in Chechnya right? And this was just 2 years ago. Some democratic process they have over there.

------------------

Yep. And that vote was after this. Some of the armchair analysis here is so shallow these days from the Putinistas. I expect better from conservatives.


46 posted on 05/04/2014 7:11:37 PM PDT by lodi90
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: SampleMan

~An amazing supply of AKs, Dragonovs, ammo and uniforms. And no 2A.~

You can buy all these crap online in Russia, pretty cheaply.
Uniform and most items available to a Russian specops, including semi-auto versions of their service small arms.

Spetsnaz outfit:
http://kamuflage.ru/odezhda-letnjaja.html

AKM:
http://dominator-arms.ru/goods/product/karabin-vpo-134-k-7-62-39-l-590.html

RPK machine gun:
http://dominator-arms.ru/goods/product/karabin-ma-ak-03-k-7-62h39.html

Tactical AK-based semi-auto 12 ga “French” Saiga shotgun (a version made by AK for a French SWAT):
http://dominator-arms.ru/goods/product/saiga-12k-taktika-040-03.html

All of the above are selling online inside Russia, and they probably could ship to Ukraine under Russian custom agreement (I wonder would EU allow trading guns online in Ukraine under their rules? Most of these toys are hughly illegal in Europe.)

I haven’t spend enough time to find Dragunov online, but you can buy it in any gunshop at about $1,500 there.


47 posted on 05/05/2014 12:46:29 AM PDT by wetphoenix
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson