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Why Germans Love Russia
NYT ^ | May 5, 2014 | Clemens Wergin

Posted on 05/05/2014 10:49:54 PM PDT by wetphoenix

BERLIN — Like most foreign-policy experts, I was shocked by Russia’s annexation of Crimea and its continuing “soft invasion” of eastern Ukraine. Can such a naked land grab really be happening now, in 21st-century Europe?

But Russia’s actions were not the only surprise. If you have followed the German debate about the Ukraine crisis, you have witnessed another strange phenomenon: a parade of former politicians and public figures going on TV to make the case for Russia.

According to these august figures — including former Chancellors Gerhard Schröder and Helmut Schmidt — NATO and the European Union were the real aggressors, because they dared to expand into territory that belonged to Moscow’s legitimate sphere of interest. And it seems part of the German public agrees.

You thought that Germans were the champions of international law and a rules-based world order? Think again.

(Excerpt) Read more at mobile.nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Germany; Government; Russia
KEYWORDS: communism; democrats; eussr; germany; germanyrussia; merkel; obama
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1 posted on 05/05/2014 10:49:54 PM PDT by wetphoenix
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To: wetphoenix

The people of Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia are not impressed with irredentism and spheres of influence.


2 posted on 05/05/2014 10:57:07 PM PDT by WhiskeyX
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To: wetphoenix

He and his fellow experts are shocked that a communist behaves like a communist


3 posted on 05/05/2014 10:57:29 PM PDT by Nifster
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To: Nifster

Are Germans commie or what?


4 posted on 05/05/2014 10:59:56 PM PDT by wetphoenix
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To: Nifster

Putin? not a Communist. he is a Believer (or wants Russians to think he is). he is an opportunist. like .. Tony Soprano.


5 posted on 05/05/2014 11:02:27 PM PDT by RitchieAprile
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To: wetphoenix

Germans communist? Ever hear the names Friedrich Engels? Karl Marx?


6 posted on 05/05/2014 11:04:46 PM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office.)
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To: RitchieAprile

And it is a big question is it good or bad in that neughborhood which is not particularly welcome to girl scouts and hippies.


7 posted on 05/05/2014 11:06:21 PM PDT by wetphoenix
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To: wetphoenix

Germans get their gas from commits....they are useful idiots

Perhaps you need to remember what communists are all about


8 posted on 05/05/2014 11:09:01 PM PDT by Nifster
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To: RitchieAprile

Putin is first, last, and always KGB. Do not under estimate the nature of the beast. Perhaps you need to refresh your memory


9 posted on 05/05/2014 11:10:55 PM PDT by Nifster
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To: DesertRhino

I’m fully aware of their existance, but for many FReepers here it is Russia that is a birthplace and a source of communism and it seems like nothing can change this perception.
I think the main problem is that they aren’t the ones who has a clue that communism is.
I think Germans are more fluent on this matter and has better awareness of ‘virtues’ of communism than most of these American self-proclamed anti-communists.


10 posted on 05/05/2014 11:12:04 PM PDT by wetphoenix
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To: wetphoenix

The German issue goes back to a history situation. It’s a society of cultures and classes....not a true nation of people unto itself. Until the early 1800s....it was 300 separate states, empires, city-states, and free-states. Even today, if you travel around....you tend to notice that you feel like you are in different spheres of influence as you go from one state of Germany to another.

Then we come to intellectuals and their sphere of influence. Most of the state-run TV news media is controlled by the intellectuals. There’s an intense battle going on now because the governor’s board of the state-run TV ‘mafia’ is overly controlled by the states, not the people (meaning the influential intellectuals). The court stepped in last month to order the board to be remade and heavily influenced (more so) by people instead of German states....giving them roughly three years to think of a new scheme.

When you watch public forums or chatter on state-run TV....the intellectual crowd will have heavy representation and try to make arguments logical. Love for Russia? The general argument would be that Russia does what’s in its national interest, and why would you meddle with that? The same argument would work for building a wall around Berlin and limiting access to free Berlin....but you can’t never suggest such in a forum run by the intellectuals.

Are the German intellectual crowd communists? I’d say if you asked to list their political priorities for a society and state to exist....to name ten items....well, most of the ten would fall into the same list as a communist. They might be shocked that their labels are that obvious, but then....they don’t really think much for themselves. Yeah...an intellectual without thinking abilities. Hard to imagine, but...that’s the reality of this mess.


11 posted on 05/05/2014 11:15:12 PM PDT by pepsionice
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To: wetphoenix

Well stated,


12 posted on 05/05/2014 11:15:30 PM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office.)
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To: pepsionice

~The German issue goes back to a history situation. It’s a society of cultures and classes....not a true nation of people unto itself. Until the early 1800s....it was 300 separate states, empires, city-states, and free-states. Even today, if you travel around....you tend to notice that you feel like you are in different spheres of influence as you go from one state of Germany to another.~

I know dozens of Germans and travelled there, too. I know who these people are.

~Are the German intellectual crowd communists? I’d say if you asked to list their political priorities for a society and state to exist....to name ten items....well, most of the ten would fall into the same list as a communist. They might be shocked that their labels are that obvious, but then....they don’t really think much for themselves. Yeah...an intellectual without thinking abilities. Hard to imagine, but...that’s the reality of this mess.~

In fact traditional German values are 100% anti-Communist. It doesn’t mean they are that much pro-Freedom but authoritarism is not = communism.
It doesn’t also mean they can’t be predominately culturally liberal.


13 posted on 05/05/2014 11:25:34 PM PDT by wetphoenix
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To: wetphoenix

It’s very simple. When America is aimless and stupid, the rest of the world just does whatever the hell it wants to do.


14 posted on 05/05/2014 11:37:26 PM PDT by JennysCool (My hypocrisy goes only so far)
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To: wetphoenix

Probably their inner Nazi coming out to cheer Putin.


15 posted on 05/05/2014 11:45:29 PM PDT by BurningOak (Live Free or Die)
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To: wetphoenix
As one who lives in the heart of the post first world war communist republic in Bavaria which actually existed although for only a short time, I think we should examine not geographical locations from which communism has sprung but we should better examine the human heart to discover the impulses which lead to the utopian vision.

One could say that England was geographical homeland of communism, as Marx and Engels lived there when they wrote their manifestoes. Equally, one can argue that France is the true birthplace of communism as we saw in the revolution with all of its excesses being since played out endlessly around the world.

But I think the impulse is part of human nature. The Germans I live among are not much different than the suburban Americans I grew up with decades ago. They are products of their culture which is shaped to a great extent by their media and I have posted several times over the years the leftward bias of the German press. Even college professors with whom I debate here in Germany have a myopic view of America which is, I believe, largely the product of limited data input.

In the absence of a full factual picture, even the whitest of human hearts is vulnerable to the siren of the utopian dream. Whittaker Chambers's classic book "Witness" describes and idealist's disillusionment with the world addressed with the promise of communism as a great motivator causing him to join the party. It is human nature to rationalize evil if we can believe that it is in the cause of a greater good. Germans are no different than French revolutionaries or American Communist Party members-or most Americans who do not educate themselves. The temptation is eternal:

If you bite of the Apple you will gain knowledge and you will not surely die.


16 posted on 05/05/2014 11:53:47 PM PDT by nathanbedford ("Attack, repeat, attack!" Bull Halsey)
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To: nathanbedford

GREAT POST, as usual always look forward to your insight!!!! Never enough of your thoughts as far as I am concerned!!!!


17 posted on 05/05/2014 11:59:34 PM PDT by Kit cat (OBummer must go)
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To: pepsionice
I believe the impulse toward communism is not geographical in origin but inherent in the human psyche. It is a question of arrogance masked as benevolence. Give me the power and I will cure the world's ills and we will will surely have utopia.

This impulse is not unique to the Teutonic heart but it is found in Russian Jews, Cuban peasants, Venezuelan army officers, Chinese masses. It is endemic to the human condition. As I have said elsewhere on this thread, the siren is always the same: bite of the Apple and you will gain knowledge and power and you will not surely die.

We as conservatives should spend our time analyzing the history, as you have done, to understand that impulse in its historical and cultural context to deal with it in ways speak to this misguided drive for the utopian dream.


18 posted on 05/06/2014 12:05:54 AM PDT by nathanbedford ("Attack, repeat, attack!" Bull Halsey)
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To: Nifster
Perhaps you need to remember what communists are all about

Yes, consolidating wealth in the hands of a few, forcefully if need be, so they can dole it out in equal dribbles to the masses who are told to glory in how 'equal' they are.

19 posted on 05/06/2014 12:31:41 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing.)
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To: wetphoenix; All

I would guess that there is also still the hidden Fascist strain in a lot of Germans.


20 posted on 05/06/2014 12:36:46 AM PDT by gleeaikin
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To: wetphoenix

“According to these august figures — including former Chancellors Gerhard Schröder and Helmut Schmidt — NATO and the European Union were the real aggressors, because they dared to expand into territory that belonged to Moscow’s legitimate sphere of interest.”

I have said as much here before but I question the word legitimate in this sentence. From a Russian point of view it may seem legitimate - maybe even bought and paid for but no country owns the allegiance or can demand another remain in their sphere of interest - it must be continually earned and reinforced through friendship and mutual interest not by force.

Mel


21 posted on 05/06/2014 12:41:30 AM PDT by melsec (Once a Jolly Swagman camped by a Billabong.)
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To: nathanbedford
Outstanding post!

"It is human nature to rationalize evil if we can believe that it is in the cause of a greater good."

This is done, and with alarming frequency we see that those who bring incredible ills upon culture and society justify their actions in the steadfast belief that they will ultimately achieve good.

It also follows that those who are truly diabolical will not hesitate to do what appears to be good, to achieve a greater long term evil goal. (The modern welfare state comes to mind, supported by multitudes who didn't want children to starve, and leading to one of the premier battle cries of the modern Liberal "...for the children!")

In an age of moral relativism, those bereft of an absolute standard of right and wrong are particularly susceptible.

22 posted on 05/06/2014 12:43:51 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing.)
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To: wetphoenix
Why Germans Love Russia

Lebensraum.

23 posted on 05/06/2014 12:44:41 AM PDT by Cincinatus (Omnia relinquit servare Rempublicam)
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To: RitchieAprile

Well said. He’s a gangster statesman. He’s a second generation secret policeman with the rank of Colonel and over 17 years of service.


24 posted on 05/06/2014 2:26:56 AM PDT by elhombrelibre (Against Obama. Against Putin. Pro-freedom. Pro-US Constitution.)
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To: nathanbedford
I like your post, but it doesn't mention that fact that a lot of history has transpired since the Utopian dream of Marx and Engels became the dystopia of Lenin, Stalin, and Putin. Putinistas ignore that Putin is a product of that dystopia. His dream is not a conservative Christian society, but a oligarchy run by former KGB thugs like himself. Christianity exist as a rationale. Russia exists as a means.
25 posted on 05/06/2014 2:31:01 AM PDT by elhombrelibre (Against Obama. Against Putin. Pro-freedom. Pro-US Constitution.)
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To: JennysCool

It’s even simpler. Politicians and public officials take bribes and will go on television to support and praise their benefactors.


26 posted on 05/06/2014 3:06:58 AM PDT by Justa
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To: Justa

I think its even simpler than that. Germans yearn for a strong leader. They don’t have one of their own, so they admire Putin.

I’ve visited Germany a few times and seen their artwork, especially the orgy of violence that is in the Residence in Munich. I think Germans are genetically mechanics and warriors—everything else flows from that.


27 posted on 05/06/2014 3:51:32 AM PDT by rbg81
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To: rbg81

~I’ve visited Germany a few times and seen their artwork, especially the orgy of violence that is in the Residence in Munich. I think Germans are genetically mechanics and warriors—everything else flows from that.~

Warriors no more. Junker aristocracy of Prussia was an original source of German militant spirit. There is no Prussia anymore and no Junkers too.


28 posted on 05/06/2014 3:58:46 AM PDT by wetphoenix
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To: wetphoenix

I think it is still there, just suppressed. It will come back out one day.


29 posted on 05/06/2014 4:24:29 AM PDT by rbg81
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To: wetphoenix

Germany fought two world wars trying to conquer Europe. They finally succeeded with the European Union. They have no argument now with Russia


30 posted on 05/06/2014 4:26:59 AM PDT by Jimmy Valentine (DemocRATS - when they speak, they lie; when they are silent, they are stealing the American Dream)
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To: rbg81

Same with the Nips.


31 posted on 05/06/2014 4:28:49 AM PDT by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: nathanbedford

Your posts never fail to impress me with their breadth and depth of understanding. How a poor, self-taught, boy from the green hills of middle Tennessee is able to plumb the depth of the human heart, I will never know. Perhaps being nearly 200 years old helps.


32 posted on 05/06/2014 4:33:01 AM PDT by Oratam
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I think we're headed more towards communism than Russia. The minimum wage hike discussion is a good example.
33 posted on 05/06/2014 4:34:22 AM PDT by McGruff (I'ts not the crime it's the coverup they said.)
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To: Nifster
Putin is first, last, and always KGB. Do not under estimate the nature of the beast. Perhaps you need to refresh your memory

"There was no law among them, but tribe rose against tribe. Discord thus ensued, and they began to war against each other. They said to themselves, "Let us seek a prince who may rule over us and judge us according to the Law." They accordingly went overseas to the Varangian Russes . . . The Chuds, the Slavs, the Krivichians and the Ves' then said to the people of Rus', "Our land is great and rich, but there is no order in it. Come to rule and reign over us."

--Early Twelfth Century, The Russian Primary Chronicle

34 posted on 05/06/2014 4:46:38 AM PDT by Oratam
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To: wetphoenix

You are millions. We are hordes and hordes and hordes.
Try and take us on!
Yes, we are Scythians! Yes, we are Asians -
With slanted and greedy eyes!

For you, the ages, for us a single hour.
We, like obedient slaves,
Held up a shield between two enemy races -
The Tatars and Europe!

For ages and ages your old furnace raged
And drowned out the roar of avalanches,
And Lisbon and Messina’s fall
To you was but a monstrous fairy tale!

For hundreds of years you gazed at the East,
Storing up and melting down our jewels,
And, jeering, you merely counted the days
Until your cannons you could point at us!

The time is come. Trouble beats its wings -
And every day our grudges grow,
And the day will come when every trace
Of your Paestums may vanish!

O, old world! While you still survive,
While you still suffer your sweet torture,
Come to a halt, sage as Oedipus,
Before the ancient riddle of the Sphinx!..

Russia is a Sphinx. Rejoicing, grieving,
And drenched in black blood,
It gazes, gazes, gazes at you,
With hatred and with love!..

It has been ages since you’ve loved
As our blood still loves!
You have forgotten that there is a love
That can destroy and burn!

We love all- the heat of cold numbers,
The gift of divine visions,
We understand all- sharp Gallic sense
And gloomy Teutonic genius...

We remember all- the hell of Parisian streets,
And Venetian chills,
The distant aroma of lemon groves
And the smoky towers of Cologne...

We love the flesh - its flavor and its color,
And the stifling, mortal scent of flesh...
Is it our fault if your skeleton cracks
In our heavy, tender paws?

When pulling back on the reins
Of playful, high-spirited horses,
It is our custom to break their heavy backs
And tame the stubborn slave girls...

Come to us! Leave the horrors of war,
And come to our peaceful embrace!
Before it’s too late - sheathe your old sword,
Comrades! We shall be brothers!

But if not - we have nothing to lose,
And we are not above treachery!
For ages and ages you will be cursed
By your sickly, belated offspring!

Throughout the woods and thickets
In front of pretty Europe
We will spread out! We’ll turn to you
With our Asian muzzles.

Come everyone, come to the Urals!
We’re clearing a battlefield there
Between steel machines breathing integrals
And the wild Tatar Horde!

But we are no longer your shield,
Henceforth we’ll not do battle!
As mortal battles rages we’ll watch
With our narrow eyes!

We will not lift a finger when the cruel Huns
Rummage the pockets of corpses,
Burn cities, drive cattle into churches,
And roast the meat of our white brothers!..

Come to your senses for the last time, old world!
Our barbaric lyre is calling you
One final time, to a joyous brotherly feast
To a brotherly feast of labor and of peace!


35 posted on 05/06/2014 4:57:19 AM PDT by Oratam
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To: wetphoenix

Sure there are Germans who were brought up in East Germany under control of the Soviet scum and were brainwashed in communism. But many Germans remember the ravages of the Soviet troops and the murders, rapes and thievery.


36 posted on 05/06/2014 4:57:28 AM PDT by kenmcg (b)
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To: All

Everybody is hypothesizing on and article that has as its main premise, an incorrect premise.

The Germans do NOT think these illegal Russian annexations and actions are justified.

Angela Merkel, stated clearly at a US Chamber of Commerce talk and Q n A, that there will be harsh sanctions on the Russians and the German business community is behind the sanctions for the actions in Ukraine.

The article is way off the mark. Probably written by a person who went into deep depression when the Soviet Union fell.


37 posted on 05/06/2014 5:23:30 AM PDT by rbmillerjr (Russians to the Left of me, Useful Idiots to the Right...)
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To: wetphoenix

A lot of the Russian Tsars and aristocrats married German princesses. The most famous one was Catherine the Great.


38 posted on 05/06/2014 5:33:24 AM PDT by C19fan
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To: wetphoenix
According to these august figures — including former Chancellors Gerhard Schröder and Helmut Schmidt — NATO and the European Union were the real aggressors, because they dared to expand into territory that belonged to Moscow’s legitimate sphere of interest. And it seems part of the German public agrees.

Guess what? They are right.

Van Rompuy: If The Public Doesn't Want EU Expansion, 'We Do It Anyway'

Maybe after losing two world wars that Germans don't want to be dragged into a third by unaccountable Globalists.

39 posted on 05/06/2014 5:57:38 AM PDT by Count of Monte Fisto (The foundation of modern society is the denial of reality.)
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To: wetphoenix

Well they loved Hitler too.


40 posted on 05/06/2014 6:03:33 AM PDT by montag813
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To: Count of Monte Fisto

“NATO and the European Union were the real aggressors, because they dared to expand into territory that belonged to Moscow’s legitimate sphere of interest.

1. NATO did not offer membership to Ukraine or Georgia.

2. Regarding the EU, shouldn’t Ukraine have the right as a sovereign nation, to enter the economic relationships it desires ?


41 posted on 05/06/2014 6:21:56 AM PDT by rbmillerjr (Russians to the Left of me, Useful Idiots to the Right...)
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To: wetphoenix
According to these august figures — including former Chancellors Gerhard Schröder and Helmut Schmidt — NATO and the European Union were the real aggressors, because they dared to expand into territory that belonged to Moscow’s legitimate sphere of interest. And it seems part of the German public agrees.

Indeed, the percentage of Germans who don't buy into the US government propaganda about the Ukraine is about 40%. That is very encouraging.

42 posted on 05/06/2014 6:34:32 AM PDT by mac_truck ( Aide toi et dieu t aidera)
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To: wetphoenix

Socialist might be a better term for the German zeitgeist. Communism may owe much to Marx and Engles but it took a British aristocrat to help it along.

Always remember that the German workers socialist party was better known to us as The NAZI party. Another thing to recall is what a pre WW2 American ambassador said of the Germans that they were carnivorous sheep.


43 posted on 05/06/2014 6:40:28 AM PDT by wjr123 (Silly paranoid misinformation.)
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To: rbg81
I think its even simpler than that. Germans yearn for a strong leader. They don’t have one of their own, so they admire Putin.

So, basically you're saying Germans are a bunch of Freepers... ;-)

44 posted on 05/06/2014 6:41:50 AM PDT by Moltke (Sapere aude!)
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To: wetphoenix

Rosh and Gomer! Look it up! This is prophecy unfolding...


45 posted on 05/06/2014 7:07:07 AM PDT by Anti-Hillary (Soon everything in America will be "free", except it's people.)
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To: wetphoenix
Der Russians, zey are alvayz in shtep ven zey march unt zey knows how to belittle ze French! Vat's not to like? Ja!
46 posted on 05/06/2014 7:15:00 AM PDT by uglybiker (nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-BATMAN!)
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To: Oratam

If you are trying to suggest that Russians have a slave mentality I won’t argue with you....The KGB has a particularly nasty reputation and if you don’t know about it you ought to go read some. Putin is a communist. He is KGB. He desires a return to the glory days of Stalin and the pogroms


47 posted on 05/06/2014 7:23:31 AM PDT by Nifster
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To: WhiskeyX
The people of Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia are not impressed with irredentism and spheres of influence.

No country is impressed with irredentism and spheres of influence...unless it's the one making the claim.

48 posted on 05/06/2014 8:22:14 AM PDT by Leaning Right (Why am I holding this lantern? I am looking for the next Reagan.)
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To: BurningOak
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Sudetenland, 1938. Crimea, 2014.

49 posted on 05/06/2014 9:08:13 AM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: rbmillerjr
Regarding the EU, shouldn’t Ukraine have the right as a sovereign nation, to enter the economic relationships it desires ?

Absolutely, and when they turn the EU and their rotten deal down they shouldn't have Globalists like Obama and Soros fund, instigate, and support a violent coup against their government.

50 posted on 05/06/2014 9:53:48 AM PDT by Count of Monte Fisto (The foundation of modern society is the denial of reality.)
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