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Could Gun Used in Deadly Shooting be Safer?
WNEP ^ | 5-7-14 | Jim Hamill

Posted on 05/07/2014 8:09:15 PM PDT by smokingfrog

Ever since a 10-year-old boy was shot and killed in Pike County over the weekend when his uncle was showing off weapons he thought were unloaded, There has been attention and scrutiny on the safety of the gun that went off.

Northeast Firearms in Honesdale sells the Glock 27, the weapon used in the shooting death of Hunter Pedersen.

State police said his uncle was showing off the weapon and pulled the trigger not realizing there was a bullet in the chamber.

The question now is: Could the gun be made safer?

Mike Jones took apart a Glock 27 for us at his gun shop. He said the Glock 27 is a popular model, one that comes without a so-called “external safety.”

It was the same gun, equipped with a laser sight, that wound up killing a 5th grader from Wayne County over the weekend.

Hunter Pedersen was killed when his uncle showed off the weapon Saturday and pulled the trigger.

People came out to support the boy’s family during a candlelight vigil near Honesdale Tuesday.

“I don’t want to ever see another family go through something like this. We are all heartbroken,” said Linda Honickel, the boy’s grandmother.

Chad Olm, the boy’s uncle, is charged with homicide. Investigators said he never checked to see if there was a bullet in the chamber.

“All guns are dangerous and sometimes people disrespect them. And that’s where the problems begin,” said Jones.

Jones said the first rule of gun safety is not to point the gun at anything or anyone unless you intend to shoot. Jones doesn’t believe the gun is to blame for Hunter’s death. The Glock, he said, does not go off unless you pull the trigger.

(Excerpt) Read more at wnep.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; News/Current Events; US: Pennsylvania
KEYWORDS: banglist; gunplay; gunsafety; idiotwithagun
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You can't make guns idiot-proof, unfortunately.
1 posted on 05/07/2014 8:09:15 PM PDT by smokingfrog
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video at link

http://wnep.com/2014/05/07/could-gun-used-in-deadly-shooting-be-safer/#ooid=FyMDF0bTp_1qA5WTEDZbULY3vG2meL9B


2 posted on 05/07/2014 8:10:03 PM PDT by smokingfrog ( sleep with one eye open (<o> ---)
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To: smokingfrog

Glocks creep me out. And I know im a minority in that. BUT, this guy pulled the trigger. Had that been a 1911, he would have flicked off the safety, and squeezed the trigger.
This isn’t the guns fault.


3 posted on 05/07/2014 8:13:22 PM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office.)
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To: smokingfrog

Anytime you THINK a gun is unloaded, IT’S NOT.


4 posted on 05/07/2014 8:13:30 PM PDT by FlingWingFlyer (Obama's smidgens are coming home to roost.)
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To: smokingfrog

I just don’t see how ANYONE could be stupid enough to point a gun at a kid like that. Even a dog would be smarter than that.

“I didn’t know the gun was loaded.” Good grief.


5 posted on 05/07/2014 8:14:09 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: smokingfrog
State police said his uncle was showing off the weapon and pulled the trigger not realizing there was a bullet in the chamber.

I'm not sure you can fix that problem.
6 posted on 05/07/2014 8:14:16 PM PDT by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin.)
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To: smokingfrog
...his uncle was showing off the weapon and pulled the trigger... Could the gun be made safer?

No.

7 posted on 05/07/2014 8:14:18 PM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum ("The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government." --Tacitus)
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To: smokingfrog

You got that right!


8 posted on 05/07/2014 8:14:33 PM PDT by basil (2ASisters.org)
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To: smokingfrog

There’s no Vaccine to prevent Stupidity.


9 posted on 05/07/2014 8:15:09 PM PDT by SandRat (Duty - Honor - Country! What else needs said?)
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To: smokingfrog; Norm Lenhart; All

Not so.

Except for the Chicago Community Organized by Obama, most gun shots fired at children are from UNLOADED guns.

Idiot-proffing guns is simple: always assume that all guns are loaded. DUH!


10 posted on 05/07/2014 8:19:26 PM PDT by Graewoulf (Democrats' Obamacare Socialist Health Insur. Tax violates U.S. Constitution AND Anti-Trust Law.)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

Change that to “his uncle was showing off the automobile and hit the accelerator” and the results would be just as deadly . . . because it’s the uncle.


11 posted on 05/07/2014 8:19:45 PM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: DesertRhino

I am not a Glock fan either, but I agree. This guy is an idiot and would have probably had the same result no matter what gun he bought.


12 posted on 05/07/2014 8:19:46 PM PDT by jospehm20
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To: FlingWingFlyer

I’m not sure why anyone would purposefully point a real gun at a boy and pull the trigger, even if it were unloaded.

If I saw a man do that, I’d take it out of his hand and pistol whip the SOB to the point of death or toothlessness, whichever came first.


13 posted on 05/07/2014 8:23:13 PM PDT by Dogbert41 (Up yours NSA !)
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Comment #14 Removed by Moderator

To: FlingWingFlyer
Some 35 years ago my parents taught me gun safety. Never had an accident.

Treat every weapon as if it is loaded until you have personally checked. Don't think you know it is or isn't, check it.

Never point a weapon at anything or anyone you are not willing to shoot and kill/destroy.

Keep your finger off the trigger unless and until you are ready to fire.

Finally, when you shoot be sure of your target, what is behind it, what is to the sides that might enter the path of the bullet/shot.

Follow these simple, overlapping rules and you too can enjoy a lifetime of accident free firearms ownership and handling with nothing worse than slide bite to show for it.

15 posted on 05/07/2014 8:28:56 PM PDT by ThunderSleeps (Stop obarma now! Stop the hussein - insane agenda!)
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To: smokingfrog
State police said his uncle was showing off the weapon and pulled the trigger not realizing there was a bullet in the chamber. The question now is: Could the gun be made safer?

Yes. Don't sell them to idiots!

16 posted on 05/07/2014 8:33:22 PM PDT by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
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To: jospehm20
I am a Glock fan, but they have to be respected.

They are perfectly safe. They will not go off, even if dropped. They will not go off on their own. They will only fire a bullet when the trigger is pulled with sufficient force.

That being said, there's nothing that can be done to stop us all from being fallible humans:


17 posted on 05/07/2014 8:35:24 PM PDT by Dogbert41 (Up yours NSA !)
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To: smokingfrog

I only own a Glock 36, is it ok for me to post on a story about a Glock 27?


18 posted on 05/07/2014 8:38:28 PM PDT by G Larry (Which of Obama's policies do you think I'd support if he were white?)
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To: ThunderSleeps

I was taught the same things. Those years in the Army helped a lot too. I just leave my firearms put away. I really see no purpose in showing anyone what I have for a number of reasons.


19 posted on 05/07/2014 8:39:10 PM PDT by FlingWingFlyer (Obama's smidgens are coming home to roost.)
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To: FlingWingFlyer

Grandpa said “all guns in this house are loaded them unloaded guns keep killing people by accident”.


20 posted on 05/07/2014 8:44:26 PM PDT by the_daug
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To: G Larry

Have at it.


21 posted on 05/07/2014 8:46:08 PM PDT by smokingfrog ( sleep with one eye open (<o> ---)
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To: Dogbert41

sepuku!


22 posted on 05/07/2014 8:46:47 PM PDT by the_daug
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

I agree, my safety is my trigger finger.


23 posted on 05/07/2014 8:48:40 PM PDT by Bulwyf
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To: FlingWingFlyer
Inadequate training to blame here. Always 'clear' the gun before doing anything other than firing it: magazine out, chamber checked empty. And never point it at anything you aren't willing to destroy.

The gun was almost certainly double-action, and it was not fired accidentally, unless you count an idiot in action as 'accidental'.

24 posted on 05/07/2014 8:51:09 PM PDT by expat2
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To: smokingfrog

The only time I’m sure my gun is unloaded is when it is fully disassembled on the table.


25 posted on 05/07/2014 8:51:47 PM PDT by gitmo (If your theology doesn't become your biography, what good is it?)
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To: the_daug

I like your Grandpa.


26 posted on 05/07/2014 8:55:30 PM PDT by Jet Jaguar (Resist in place.)
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To: FlingWingFlyer

I have only rarely shown a weapon to a non family member. They were all current, former, or future military. In every case step one upon picking up the weapon was to drop the mag or confirm mag well empty, then visually inspect the chamber, then rack the action several times to functionally confirm the weapon was empty. Even if you know it is people, do it! You are training yourself to make this automatic habit.


27 posted on 05/07/2014 8:55:52 PM PDT by ThunderSleeps (Stop obarma now! Stop the hussein - insane agenda!)
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To: DesertRhino

I’ve never handled a Glock. I own a few Rugers and S&Ws.
What is it about Glocks that creeps you out?


28 posted on 05/07/2014 8:58:15 PM PDT by gitmo (If your theology doesn't become your biography, what good is it?)
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To: gitmo

Stupid people + stupid Glock design = time bomb.


29 posted on 05/07/2014 9:00:30 PM PDT by Goldsborough
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To: gitmo
A brightly-colored empty chamber indicator (ECI) is helpful. And clearing the gun before you start disassembling it is highly desirable -- there have been many 'accidental' firings while cleaning a gun.
30 posted on 05/07/2014 9:01:02 PM PDT by expat2
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To: ThunderSleeps
And may I add ...

Fella brought a Sig 9mm to me to have a reduced hammer spring installed, to make the double action manageable for his wife. When he took it out of the cloth wrap he brought it over in I asked if it was loaded. He assured me it was not and removed the mag to show me it was empty. He then pulled the slide back to show it had nothing in the chamber, but he didn't have it where I could see the empty barrel. There was a discernible 'smack' when he released the slide.

Turns out he did not pull the slide back any where near far enough eject a round and the extractor was ot working 100 percent.

He handed the gun to me and said the double action pull was too stiff (used military police pistol). I accepted the pistol from him and used the hammer drop to lower the hammer. But when I tested the double action trigger --pointed in a safe direction at the floor away from any people-- the weapon fired when the hammer dropped.

Nice 9mm hole in my hardwood flooring! ALWAYS do the full checklist for yourself if anyone hands to you a gun, of any kind, even a BB gun.

31 posted on 05/07/2014 9:07:40 PM PDT by MHGinTN
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To: smokingfrog

“You can’t make guns idiot-proof, unfortunately. “

Safe gun handling alone would have prevented this tragedy of stupidity. Every gun is to be treated as though it is loaded at ALL times.

Mechanical safeties and gun mechanisms in general can also fail no matter how they are designed.


32 posted on 05/07/2014 9:10:05 PM PDT by headstamp 2 (What would Scooby do?)
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To: expat2

Oh, I absolutely clear the gun of all rounds before starting to take it apart. But I still treat it like its loaded: I don’t allow it to point toward any person, I keep my finger off the trigger. I don’t let it out if my direct control.

But once the barrel is separated from the fun, I’m not concerned about what is in front of it.


33 posted on 05/07/2014 9:10:19 PM PDT by gitmo (If your theology doesn't become your biography, what good is it?)
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To: gitmo

personally i don’t want the safety in the trigger itself.


34 posted on 05/07/2014 9:18:02 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (Gone Galt; Not averse to Going Bronson.)
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To: ThunderSleeps

My kids could recite the safety rules forwards and backwards. They would recite them to me on their own as we were pulling into the range parking lot. It just saved time since I would not let them out of the car until they did so.

Today son and daughter are both safe gun owners and good shots too.


35 posted on 05/07/2014 9:26:07 PM PDT by super7man
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To: MHGinTN
ALWAYS do the full checklist for yourself if anyone hands to you a gun, of any kind, even a BB gun.

Yep. Good thing you pointed it in a safe direction. That's why the 4 rules work - overlap. Even when human nature or mistakes negate one of them, the others (if followed) can save your backside.

I've noticed that at gun shops the guy/gal will check a weapon pulled out of a case and hand it to you. I always check it myself before examining it further. When handed back to the guy/gal he/she will always check it again before returning it to the case. When my son asked about that "Dad, do you think he made a mistake? Does he think you loaded it before handing it back?" I told him honestly no - neither of us believed the weapon to be loaded. However, we weren't worried about that weapon, we are training ourselves so that safety becomes habit - for the next weapon we pick up.

36 posted on 05/07/2014 9:33:36 PM PDT by ThunderSleeps (Stop obarma now! Stop the hussein - insane agenda!)
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To: gitmo

Not trying to start a flame war. I know Glocks are fine. But to me it feels like a 1911 with the safety flicked off. I know it has internals that are very reliable to prevent discharge unless the trigger is pulled. But there it is, a trigger that’s not really double action. I can’t shake the feeling that I’m basically holstering a 1911 or a Browning 9mm with the safety off.


37 posted on 05/07/2014 9:43:23 PM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office.)
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To: ThunderSleeps

“However, we weren’t worried about that weapon, we are training ourselves so that safety becomes habit - for the next weapon we pick up.”

To me it is also good manners to show it is empty. Also having muzzle control. Nothing worse than being in a gun store and some yahoo crosses your body with the barrel. Even in a gun case mine is always pointed away from anything.

An aside. I went trap shooting with my young son. He learned the safety rules on his BB gun, and follows them with whatever weapon he has. (Getting your bb gun taken away for a week at the age of 8 or whenever it was leaves an impression).

After a frustrating first day of it, I hired the local instructor for an hour just for some basic tips for my son. (He was doing really well after the guy pointed out three things.)

Anyway, I didn’t know - but the instructor told him to point the gun out towards the grass when chambering a round, rather than down. In case of a shell firing when chambered, and hitting the asphalt in front of you and getting crap back at you.

The instructor WAS very impressed by my son’s trigger finger always being in a safe spot until firing. (Made me proud). “Yeah, except whenever I’m watching a movie I’m always looking at their trigger finger, and it bothers me when they’re doing it wrong.”


38 posted on 05/07/2014 9:46:21 PM PDT by 21twelve (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2185147/posts 2013 is 1933 REBORN)
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To: Goldsborough

And really the Glock design is brilliant for its intended purpose. It was designed to be a service pistol for the Austrian Army. Soldiers generally carry pistols in a webgear holster full mag, empty chamber. Running the slide upon imminent use.
In that world its a masterpiece. The finish is utterly impervious too the elements. The frame is too. The manual of arms couldn’t be simpler. Its perfect for the Armorer to keep going. It’ll handle very hot loads.

But in the other world of shooters, carried round chambered, Mexican style in your jeans waistband, shoved into a low-end Kydex holster, or a sloppy leather or ill fitting generic nylon cloth holster, you’re asking for trouble in my opinion. Triggers will work as advertised when touched by bad equipment just as with a finger.


39 posted on 05/07/2014 9:53:03 PM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office.)
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To: ThunderSleeps
I've been working on guns for a long time. I made the amateur's mistake of allowing the sound of the slide slapping forward without the mag in the gun to persuade me the gun was unloaded. It did not even enter my mind that the extractor might not be functioning. In his defense, the guy has very poor eyesight ... which I learned that day and not before. Because the extractor did not grab the live round and pull it out of the firing chamber, when the slide was pulled partly back the gun 'appeared' empty. That's why you run a finger down the barrel to verify there's no round still in the chamber. Good habits are gold, especially when you mistakenly do not follow them completely. Gold spent is gold gone.

BTW, we both remained perfectly still, deafened from the sound of that 9mm going off in my shop! I now keep electronic earmuffs beside my bed.

40 posted on 05/07/2014 9:55:08 PM PDT by MHGinTN
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To: MHGinTN

“deafened from the sound”

That was my first thought in reading your story. I recall the time my dad thought it would be okay to join us in the basement shooting our BB guns. Except he used my older brother’s .22. No ear protection. Afterwards, with his distinctive sheepish grin, said “Well. I guess THAT was a bad idea.”


41 posted on 05/07/2014 10:07:49 PM PDT by 21twelve (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2185147/posts 2013 is 1933 REBORN)
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To: smokingfrog

I can’t count the number of times I’ve seen someone rack the slide and then drop the magazine. You drop the magazine first, THEN you rack the slide two or three times to eject any chambered round, while looking in the chamber to verify it is empty. After that, you still don’t ever point the weapon at someone and you definitely don’t pull the trigger. Regardless of what happened, this guy was a total idiot.


42 posted on 05/07/2014 10:50:39 PM PDT by AlaskaErik (I served and protected my country for 31 years. Progressives spent that time trying to destroy it.)
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To: AlaskaErik

It’s necessary to pull the trigger in order to disassemble a Glock.


43 posted on 05/07/2014 11:23:59 PM PDT by mvpel
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To: DesertRhino

Quite a few, if not most major handgun manufacturers produce DAO pistols that are similar.


44 posted on 05/07/2014 11:55:28 PM PDT by Eagles6 (Valley Forge Redux. If not now, when? If not here, where?)
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To: smokingfrog

Yeah. If you don’t put the laser dot on your nephew’s forehead, it’s a lot safer that way.


45 posted on 05/07/2014 11:59:51 PM PDT by RichInOC (No! BAD Rich! (What'd I say?)...R.I.P.)
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To: MHGinTN; DesertRhino

I have the habit of always locking the slide back when handing a pistol to someone.


46 posted on 05/08/2014 12:07:39 AM PDT by Eagles6 (Valley Forge Redux. If not now, when? If not here, where?)
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To: DesertRhino
You could drop a 1911 Kimber from the highest building and it would not discharge.
Four actions must be met to fire the 1911 Kimber. Grip, Safety, Hammer, and Trigger.
And noticing a 1911 Cocked and locked assures safety of handling by intelligent people.

I've fired Glocks and do not like or trust them.

47 posted on 05/08/2014 12:23:30 AM PDT by MaxMax (Pay Attention and you'll be pissed off too! FIRE BOEHNER, NOW!)
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To: DesertRhino
And really the Glock design is brilliant for its intended purpose. It was designed to be a service pistol for the Austrian Army. Soldiers generally carry pistols in a webgear holster full mag, empty chamber. Running the slide upon imminent use. In that world its a masterpiece. The finish is utterly impervious too the elements. The frame is too. The manual of arms couldn’t be simpler. Its perfect for the Armorer to keep going. It’ll handle very hot loads.

But in the other world of shooters, carried round chambered, Mexican style in your jeans waistband, shoved into a low-end Kydex holster, or a sloppy leather or ill fitting generic nylon cloth holster, you’re asking for trouble in my opinion. Triggers will work as advertised when touched by bad equipment just as with a finger.

There is also the Israeli solution - Mexican style with an unloaded chamber. To draw and fire takes two hands, but the trick is you grab the slide with your non-firing hand and shove the gun forward towards the intended target. The slide stays still but racks a round as the gun slides underneath it. then you let go of the slide and it snaps back into battery, ready to fire.

Practice a little, and it can be done extremely rapidly and reliably. In the mean time, the gun stays in Condition Three for carrying, no round in the chamber, completely safe.

48 posted on 05/08/2014 12:28:52 AM PDT by Talisker (One who commands, must obey.)
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To: FlingWingFlyer
Anytime you THINK a gun is unloaded, IT’S NOT.

Training new shooters, I beat the following into their heads:

TREAT EVERY GUN AS IF IT'S LOADED! The true "safety" on any gun is between the shooter's ears! Funny how the only guns used to accidentally shoot people are unloaded!

Mark

49 posted on 05/08/2014 12:47:12 AM PDT by MarkL (Do I really look like a guy with a plan?)
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To: expat2
there have been many 'accidental' firings while cleaning a gun.

I always thought that was a euphemism for suicide.

50 posted on 05/08/2014 12:53:05 AM PDT by j. earl carter
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