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Is College Worth It? Nope
Accuracy in Academia ^ | May 10, 2014 | Spencer Irvine

Posted on 05/12/2014 11:23:13 AM PDT by Academiadotorg

George Mason economics professor Bryan Caplan, at the libertarian think tank Cato Institute, said that college is not worth it for both taxpayers and for low-performing students coming out of high school. He examined it with two important questions:

Is college worthwhile for the student and is it a good investment? Is college a good investment for taxpayers?

Caplan said, “Education is a wasteful arms race, the more you get, the more you need to avoid looking like a loser.” For example, “in 1945, only about 25% of Americans over the age of 25 finished high school.” One used to impress parents and others that you graduated high school, said Caplan, but “not so anymore.” The reason behind this societal change is, “not so much because the jobs that people do have changed radically, but rather, the credentials of the competition have gone up, and you need to match them in order to continue to impress.”

Caplan found that college graduates do indeed make up to 83% more in salaries than do high school graduates. Nevertheless, he avers, “high ability students tend to do the hard majors that pay well.” Thus, Caplan states, “Engineering majors not only have higher quantitative SAT scores than English majors, they have higher verbal scores than engineering majors.” Caplan calls the difference in wages between college and high school graduates “the education premium” and finds that it varies widely between “soft” studies and harder disciplines. In other words, “the education premium ranges from 24% in education majors…whereas getting a bachelors’ degree will increase your earnings by about 60%,” Caplan explains.

He noted that while most engineering students “don’t see the light of day” in college, other majors “enjoy life” on campus because “most majors are not remotely vocational,” or difficult.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: college; earningst; education; highschool; jobs; school; university

1 posted on 05/12/2014 11:23:13 AM PDT by Academiadotorg
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To: Academiadotorg

I just find this ridiculous. If you can do a trade fine. If you can run a successful business fine. But if you need a professional job even a secretary for a company they are going to require at least a bachelor’s Degree. And if you want a civil service job, you better have a Master’s Degree.


2 posted on 05/12/2014 11:25:07 AM PDT by napscoordinator (Governor Scott Walker 2016 for the future of the country!)
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To: Academiadotorg
Learn to diddle bits at the local VoTech and make $100k+yr.

But only if you're smart and dedicated.

3 posted on 05/12/2014 11:26:57 AM PDT by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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To: Mariner
The average Cisco Certified Network Professional makes $100k. The average Cisco Certified Internetworking Expert makes $140k.

And you can't pick the cert up in college.

4 posted on 05/12/2014 11:29:12 AM PDT by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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To: napscoordinator

Children of acquaintances, coworkers and extended family are just about all doing transfer credits from community college, then finishing up a four year degree at a state university. Cost is truly out of hand and does not represent a value. That does not mean it’s not a requirement in many fields. It does mean, however, that less costly means to the same end are being pursued vigorously. Half a lifetime of debt servitude is no way to live, and the opportunities are just not there in most of the country to help pay it down.


5 posted on 05/12/2014 11:29:16 AM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: Mariner

And the unemployment rate for both is 0.0% nationwide.


6 posted on 05/12/2014 11:30:56 AM PDT by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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To: Academiadotorg

College is worth it for hard skills, e.g. accounting, brain surgery and engineering.

That’s about it.


7 posted on 05/12/2014 11:32:12 AM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: Academiadotorg
This does not make sense:

“Engineering majors not only have higher quantitative SAT scores than English majors, they have higher verbal scores than engineering majors.”

8 posted on 05/12/2014 11:32:34 AM PDT by PghBaldy (12/14 - 930am -rampage begins... 12/15 - 1030am - Obama's advance team scouts photo-op locations.)
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To: Academiadotorg
Nonsense, nonsense, nonsense.

Tell me how anyone could run a business without expertise in the following critical areas:

1. “The Phallus”

Occidental College. A seminar in critical theory and social justice, this class examines Sigmund Freud, phallologocentrism and the lesbian phallus.

2. “Queer Musicology”

UCLA. This course welcomes students from all disciplines to study what it calls an “unruly discourse” on the subject, understood through the works of Cole Porter, Pussy Tourette and John Cage.

3. “Taking Marx Seriously”

Amherst College. This advanced seminar for 15 students examines whether Karl Marx still matters despite the countless interpretations and applications of his ideas, or whether the world has entered a post-Marxist era.

4. “Adultery Novel”

University of Pennsylvania. Falling in the newly named “gender, culture and society” major, this course examines novels and films of adultery such as “Madame Bovary” and “The Graduate” through Marxist, Freudian and feminist lenses.

5. “Blackness”

Occidental College. Critical race theory and the idea of “post-blackness” are among the topics covered in this seminar course examining racial identity. A course on whiteness is a prerequisite.

6. “Border Crossings, Borderlands: Transnational Feminist Perspectives on Immigration”

University of Washington. This women studies department offering takes a new look at recent immigration debates in the U.S., integrating questions of race and gender while also looking at the role of the war on terror.

7. “Whiteness: The Other Side of Racism”

Mount Holyoke College. The educational studies department offers this first-year, writing-intensive seminar asking whether whiteness is “an identity, an ideology, a racialized social system,” and how it relates to racism.

8. “Native American Feminisms”

University of Michigan. The women’s studies and American culture departments offer this course on contemporary Native American feminism, including its development and its relation to struggles for land.

9. “’Mail Order Brides?’ Understanding the Philippines in Southeast Asian Context”

Johns Hopkins University. This history course — cross-listed with anthropology, political science and studies of women, gender and sexuality — is limited to 35 students and asks for an anthropology course as a prerequisite.

10. “Cyberfeminism”

Cornell University. Cornell’s art history department offers this seminar looking at art produced under the influence of feminism, post-feminism and the Internet.

11. “American Dreams/American Realities”

Duke University. Part of Duke’s Hart Leadership Program that prepares students for public service, this history course looks at American myths, from “city on the hill” to “foreign devil,” in shaping American history.

12. “Nonviolent Responses to Terrorism”

Swarthmore College. Swarthmore’s “peace and conflict studies” program offers this course that “will deconstruct ‘terrorism’ “ and “study the dynamics of cultural marginalization” while seeking alternatives to violence.

9 posted on 05/12/2014 11:32:56 AM PDT by I cannot think of a name
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To: Mariner

I went to COBOL school in 1983 for ten months at a cost of around $2,300. Without any college, that worked into a $125 an hour position by 2001, but I confess that before that one it was only $55 an hour...


10 posted on 05/12/2014 11:33:50 AM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: napscoordinator

Yes you are correct. As a former college professor I can tell you that in our society as it stands today you need a college degree or a trade school certification. Otherwise you will be waiting tables at an Olive Garden. A high school diploma will not get you far in life in 2014.


11 posted on 05/12/2014 11:35:49 AM PDT by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose o f a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: Academiadotorg

It depends on how you define “worth it”. Maybe in strictly economic terms, it’s not. However, if you’ve always dreamed of becoming, say, a lawyer (why anyone would dream of that is beyond me, but just for the sake of argument), you would certainly say that your college education was worth it, even if that’s not true in an economic sense.

Sure, you can make a decent, or even a good living economically without a college degree. However, does that really matter to you if all you’ve ever wanted to do is become a teacher, nurse, doctor, lawyer, or a scientist? College would obviously be worth it to those who dream of doing professions like those.


12 posted on 05/12/2014 11:35:52 AM PDT by stremba
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To: Academiadotorg
For example, “in 1945, only about 25% of Americans over the age of 25 finished high school.

That's a bad year to compare since it is at the end of WW2. A better comparison would be to either before the war in 1941 or well after the war in 1949. Many who would have finished high school by 1945 fought instead.

Thus, Caplan states, “Engineering majors not only have higher quantitative SAT scores than English majors, they have higher verbal scores than engineering majors.” Caplan calls the difference in wages between college and high school graduates “the education premium” and finds that it varies widely between “soft” studies and harder disciplines. In other words, “the education premium ranges from 24% in education majors…whereas getting a bachelors’ degree will increase your earnings by about 60%,” Caplan explains.

Huh? Engineering majors have higher verbal SAT scores than engineering majors? And the last part of that paragraph looks like it missing something because it sounds like education majors don't get bachelors' degrees.

13 posted on 05/12/2014 11:36:55 AM PDT by KarlInOhio (Republican amnesty supporters don't care whether their own homes are called mansions or haciendas.)
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To: Georgia Girl 2
"A high school diploma will not get you far in life in 2014."

I employ dozens of HS graduates only...and all over $50/hr.

14 posted on 05/12/2014 11:37:47 AM PDT by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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To: I cannot think of a name
3. “Taking Marx Seriously”

Amherst College. This advanced seminar for 15 students examines whether Karl Marx still matters despite the countless interpretations and applications of his ideas, or whether the world has entered a post-Marxist era.

KGB Operative/Soviet defector, Yuri Alexander Bezmenov in a 1985 video:

“Ideological subversion is the process which is legitimate overt and open, you can see it with your own eyes. All you can do, all Americans needs to do is to unplug their bananas from their ears, open up their eyes and they can see. There is no mystery. It has nothing to do with espionage…. It's a great brainwashing process which goes very slow and is divided into four basic stages. The first one being demoralization. It takes from fifteen to twenty years to demoralize a nation. Why that many years? Because this is the minimum number of years required to educate one generation of students in the country of your enemy, exposed to the ideology of the enemy. In other words, Marxism, Leninism ideology is being pumped into the soft heads of at least three generations of American students, without being challenged or contra-balanced by the basic values of Americanism, American patriotism….

15 posted on 05/12/2014 11:41:14 AM PDT by QT3.14
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To: Academiadotorg

It has devolved into a very expensive welfare system for academics.

Skilled craftsmen all need apprenticeship training for Master’s Licenses for Electrial, Mechanical, Plumbing, Fire Suppression/Sprinkler Fitter and the like. Many intelligent kids who should be getting into those trades take a three to five year 75k detour through liberal arts colleges. Most could skip it and make 50 to 90k after journeyman status even before a Master’s License test.

People going into sales don’t need a BA, they need a 90 day course on Grooming and Decorum.

People going into many Healthcare supporting roles need Vo-
Tec type training.

Basic accounting, business forms, letter writing, HR basic, cost accounting and a payroll course could get most people ready for the business world in two semesters.


16 posted on 05/12/2014 11:42:10 AM PDT by KC Burke (Officially since Memorial Day they are the Gimmie-crat Party.ha)
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To: Mariner

You one in a million.


17 posted on 05/12/2014 11:42:12 AM PDT by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose o f a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: KarlInOhio
Should it be?:

Engineering majors have higher verbal SAT scores than engineering majors English majors.

18 posted on 05/12/2014 11:44:08 AM PDT by CaptainK (...please make it stop. Shake a can of pennies at it.)
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To: Georgia Girl 2
"You one in a million."

Hardly.

It's the nature of the tech business.

That's not to say these guys are dumb, they just don't have traditional education.

To obtain a CCIE cert one would need an IQ of at least 125 and 10 years of work/study.

19 posted on 05/12/2014 11:46:49 AM PDT by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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To: Academiadotorg

We need factories that make products for the U.S..(businessmen)

We need people to work in those factories.
(Blue collar workers)

We need people to be able to support and repair those machines.
(specialists and engineers)

And those factories will need other smaller establishments from parts suppliers to diners.

In the end, anyone that wants work will be able to get it.

We dont need more English, Art, Philosophy, Gender/Queer studies graduates, because they are becoming a net drain on the economy.


20 posted on 05/12/2014 11:46:55 AM PDT by VanDeKoik
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To: VanDeKoik

Most of the recent college grads I’ve mat are not smart enough to be in college, much less to be employed in intellectually demanding work.


21 posted on 05/12/2014 11:48:21 AM PDT by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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To: Mariner

The truth of the matter is that the average student graduating High School in the US has a very low chance of getting a $50 per hour job and you and I both know it.

Again if you do not have a technical/trade school cert or a college degree you are at a great disadvantage as my high IQ nephew and Mr. GG2’s high IQ son have learned the hard way.


22 posted on 05/12/2014 11:54:28 AM PDT by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose o f a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: Georgia Girl 2

More dumbing down of the American Youth! Any education is worthwhile and to say it is not is pure BS!
I am a tradesman that went into business and with the business education I did not get made things tougher! Business OJT is not pretty!


23 posted on 05/12/2014 11:59:07 AM PDT by DocJhn
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To: Academiadotorg
He noted that while most engineering students “don’t see the light of day” in college, other majors “enjoy life” on campus because “most majors are not remotely vocational,” or difficult.

Betweeen engineering classes, homework and my work-study job, I was consistantly doing 110-120 hours/week. OTOH, the non-science Arts majors at my fraternity started the weekend on Thursday night.

This shaped how I view the MSM. Journalists used to be journalism majors. Thus they had a lot of extra time for protesting the cause-de-jour, art festivals, drinking and drugs. They are neither responsible or particularily bright people, but their profession gives them a whole lot of undeserved publicity.

24 posted on 05/12/2014 12:00:52 PM PDT by kidd
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To: PghBaldy

written by an English major.


25 posted on 05/12/2014 12:02:44 PM PDT by married21 ( As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.)
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To: DocJhn

“Business OJT is not pretty!”

So true.


26 posted on 05/12/2014 12:10:55 PM PDT by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose o f a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: Academiadotorg
For example, “in 1945, only about 25% of Americans over the age of 25 finished high school.”

All of this ink spilled and I have to be the first one to point out that a high school graduate of 70 years ago had to have the approximate math and writing skills of an average college graduate today?

27 posted on 05/12/2014 12:11:54 PM PDT by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: Georgia Girl 2
You one in a million.

whut?

28 posted on 05/12/2014 12:20:04 PM PDT by gaijin
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To: Academiadotorg
Thus, Caplan states, “Engineering majors not only have higher quantitative SAT scores than English majors, they have higher verbal scores than engineering majors.”

Eh...whut?

29 posted on 05/12/2014 12:21:45 PM PDT by gaijin
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To: kidd

I have an e gineering degree (BS in computer science from Texas A&M), but I haven’t worked in almst 20 years while I’ve been a stay at home mom.

I would like to get back to working, but it seems my degree and 10 years in the workforce doesn!t make a difference.

Wonder if it was worth the money and hard work. Grant ut, I met my husband at work, so that is basically what my degree got me.


30 posted on 05/12/2014 12:23:06 PM PDT by luckystarmom
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To: Vigilanteman

You mean 8th grade graduate.


31 posted on 05/12/2014 12:23:49 PM PDT by caddie
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To: luckystarmom
I haven’t worked in almst 20 years while I’ve been a stay at home mom

This statement has conflicting information.

32 posted on 05/12/2014 12:32:53 PM PDT by kidd
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To: Georgia Girl 2

But you can get a technical cert for a less than $10k. Some obtain them for the cost of the book...about $40.


33 posted on 05/12/2014 12:35:31 PM PDT by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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To: caddie
Yep. If you had the good fortune to attend something other than a big city school, then 8th grade graduate.

FWIW, my mother taught high school in a big city after the big war. A semester's experience convinced her to accept Dad's marriage proposal and bail.

They weren't dealing drugs and dangerous back in those days, but they weren't much interested in learning.

34 posted on 05/12/2014 12:39:15 PM PDT by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: CaptainK
That would make more sense as a sentence, but I don't know if that was the fact the author was trying to state.
35 posted on 05/12/2014 12:39:46 PM PDT by KarlInOhio (Republican amnesty supporters don't care whether their own homes are called mansions or haciendas.)
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To: Academiadotorg

College grads earning more does not mean that if EVERYONE goes to college everyone will earn more. Yet that is what has been pushed. Most smart people make more money. Most smart people go to college. But going to college alone neither makes people smart nor well paid.


36 posted on 05/12/2014 1:11:49 PM PDT by informavoracious (Open your eyes, people!)
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To: PghBaldy
This does not make sense:

“Engineering majors not only have higher quantitative SAT scores than English majors, they have higher verbal scores than engineering majors.”


Agreed. It does not make any sense. Has to be a typo.

My Daughters scores were very high in all categories.

She is doing her Junior year internship (paid) starting next week for Petroleum and Gas Engineering. The recruiter was still looking at those SAT scores plus her course work. Math scores are fundamental, but they are looking for people who can communicate their engineering work too.
37 posted on 05/12/2014 1:27:32 PM PDT by PA Engineer (Liberate America from the Occupation Media.)
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To: I cannot think of a name

I have long maintained the major purpose of college is to employee unemployable losers. That is the only way to explain ridiculous courses and majors we see in colleges across the country.


38 posted on 05/12/2014 3:04:13 PM PDT by Organic Panic
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To: kidd

No kidding! I had 3 under 3, and one of my twins has special needs. I haven’t worked for a company in almost 20 years! :)


39 posted on 05/12/2014 3:54:15 PM PDT by luckystarmom
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To: Academiadotorg; All
"Is College Worth It?...."



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40 posted on 05/12/2014 3:57:24 PM PDT by musicman (Until I see the REAL Long Form Vault BC, he's just "PRES__ENT" Obama = Without "ID")
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To: KarlInOhio

It would appear that the writer needed more education.


41 posted on 05/12/2014 5:23:41 PM PDT by RipSawyer
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To: DocJhn

“Business OJT is not pretty!”
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Having run a small business of my own successfully in the past I can vouch for your statement. OJT in business can be costly but I managed to make it. On the other hand I said later that if I had it to do over I would find a business manager and I would be the technical guy. The main thing I had to sell was my own technical ability but it probably could have been developed into something much bigger had I not been trying to be everything at one time. I suspect though that the biggest thing causing most small businesses to fail at the time I was running my own business was the propensity of small business people to overspend on personal expenses and not invest in the business. I saw a lot of people trying to “play the role”.

One fellow that I had worked with before starting my business later went into one of his own in a similar product line and struggled along for a few years until his son finished high school whereupon he turned the management over to his son before the boy turned twenty and went back to full time technical work. He told me the business fared much better that way. He said the boy was a natural business man, something that he had never been even though he was a whiz as a technician. His son actually suggested it, came up one day and said, “Dad, there is nobody better than you at the technical end but you are a lousy manager, let me do it.” The last time I talked to him he said he was very happy that he had listened to his boy.


42 posted on 05/12/2014 5:40:02 PM PDT by RipSawyer
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To: PghBaldy
This does not make sense:

“Engineering majors not only have higher quantitative SAT scores than English majors, they have higher verbal scores than engineering majors.”

Yeah, I looked at that one twice and concluded it made absolutely no sense at all.

43 posted on 05/12/2014 5:45:21 PM PDT by OldPossum ("It's" is the contraction of "it" and "is"; think about ITS implications.)
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To: OldPossum

Engineering majors have respectable verbal scores; journalism majors ... not so much.


44 posted on 05/12/2014 5:48:03 PM PDT by ClearCase_guy
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To: caddie; Vigilanteman

Actually he meant eighth grade AT MOST! That is for math, as far as writing skills he probably meant sixth grade or less. This country is full of college graduates, many of them Freepers, who don’t know to, two and too, don’t know there, their and they’re, dont know its from it’s, use apostrophes in plurals, couldn’t select the correct pronoun if THEIR lives depended on it etc. Don’t even mention history, I can say from conversations I have had that the average recent recipient of a university degree with a MAJOR in history would have as much chance of passing my eighth grade history final as I would have of successfully performing brain surgery while designing a spaceship at the same time, standing on my head the whole while and whistling Dixie.

I forgot to say on the subject of math how disgusting it is to hear supposedly educated people, including the current resident, use such absurd terms as “2500 percent less”. If that is supposed to have a meaning I cannot even guess what it might be. It is bad enough that people who should know better say things like “25 times smaller” which is mathematically impossible yet I can probably guess what they are trying to say but “2500 percent less” defies interpretation.


45 posted on 05/12/2014 6:00:22 PM PDT by RipSawyer
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To: RipSawyer

What most do not realize about business is if you are a sole proprietor of a small business. You have many hats.
1. Controller
2. Director of advertising
3. Customer service
4. Operations Exec
5. Accountant
6. Payroll officer
7. HR officer
8. Logistics officer
9. Money Management officer
10. Materials acquisition
11. Inventory officer
12 Security officer on inventory (stuff walks)
13.Credit Liaison officer
14. Education officer and Director of hiring new employees
15. Vehicle management
16. Self atty for Small claims actions for non payment of goods and services.
17. The one that performs when no employees show up.
18. Liaison officer of State and Federal Agencies
19. Many more!
How do I know Been there! I have the T-Shirt!


46 posted on 05/14/2014 9:37:10 AM PDT by DocJhn
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