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Ukrainian speakers leave Donetsk amid pro-Russia surge
BBC ^ | 13 May 2014 Last updated at 07:24 ET | By Richard Galpin

Posted on 05/13/2014 10:00:35 AM PDT by FreeReign

Ukrainian speakers in the eastern region of Donetsk have started leaving the area, fearing for their safety as pro-Russian militants tighten their grip.

The declaration on Monday by separatist leaders that their self-declared "Donetsk People's Republic" was now an independent, sovereign state which could ultimately be absorbed into Russia is likely to hasten the exodus.

"If a separate Donetsk People's Republic is founded here, I will have to leave," says Olga, a businesswoman and single mother with a young daughter.

(Excerpt) Read more at bbc.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Russia
KEYWORDS: ukraine
I suspect that a majority of the people in Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts would want to leave if they could.
1 posted on 05/13/2014 10:00:35 AM PDT by FreeReign
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To: FreeReign

Like the India-Pakistan breakup, there will likely be a two-way exodus.

Hopefully this time, without the muzzie-like violence.


2 posted on 05/13/2014 10:19:57 AM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
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To: tcrlaf

Eastern Ukraine is going to be a lot like Belfast circa early 1970s.


3 posted on 05/13/2014 10:21:18 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: dfwgator

Donestk demographics:

Percent who consider themselves “Russian” (as opposed to “Ukrainian”): 38%

Percent who consider “Russian” to be their “native” (as opposed to primary) language: 74%

Percent who speak Russian in their own homes: 94%

Ukrainian universities teaching in Russian: 0%

Ukrainian media sources broadcasting in Russian: 5%

Russian recognized as a language of the Ukraine: No.

Language is nationality. America had better learn that quick.


4 posted on 05/13/2014 10:39:14 AM PDT by dangus
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To: FreeReign

“the aim of the referendum was to break up Ukraine”

The aim of the referendum for Putin to gobble Ukraine.


5 posted on 05/13/2014 11:08:47 AM PDT by samtheman
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To: FreeReign

Hard to know for sure whether Russia is truly democratic. If it is, Putin would be committing electoral suicide by adding 50m Ukrainians who don’t want to be part of Russia. It would be as if the GOP decided to add Mexico to the union by coercive means.


6 posted on 05/13/2014 11:13:35 AM PDT by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
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To: dangus

Looks like there is some basis for Pro-Russian vote. These folks might well think life would be better under Putin. The Ukrainians can leave—they will be replaced by Russian Speakers from West Ukraine. This looks to be a re-ajustment of poorly drawn borders-—Russians are on the right side of this—I support them. BUT If they try to take the rest of Keiv—I believe we should help the Kiev Government! This much—and no more. If the Allies had given Sudetenland to Hitler but refused to let him take the rest of The land—it might have avoided WW II.


7 posted on 05/13/2014 11:18:35 AM PDT by Forward the Light Brigade (Into the Jaws of H*ll)
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8 posted on 05/13/2014 12:50:01 PM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Forward the Light Brigade
Looks like there is some basis for Pro-Russian vote. These folks might well think life would be better under Putin.

Just by speaking Russian does not make one a Putinist. Ukraine is a bilingual country and always has been, with Russian being used alongside Ukrainian in Kyiv itself. Russians (at least racially) were involved in the Maidan from the very beginning. It wasn't a racial thing. The polls that have come out of East and South Ukraine show that the vast majority of people, even ethnically Russian, desire a United Ukraine. The Separatists are a minority, but they are armed.

9 posted on 05/13/2014 2:54:03 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Forward the Light Brigade

“If the Allies had given Sudetenland to Hitler but refused to let him take the rest of The land—it might have avoided WW II.”

You got this history confused. When the Brit/France appeased Hitler and signed over the Sudetenland, the primary concession was that Hitler would NOT make any more land claims. This was solidified in the Munich Pact, I believe, officially.

Then 6 months later, Hitler, invade and took the entire country.

Despite the FR Borscht Bridage’s zeal to support Russian propaganda. Don’t expect Ukraine to give up the east without a fight, after the elections are over. The West is holding Ukraine back until after the elections.


10 posted on 05/13/2014 2:55:13 PM PDT by rbmillerjr (Russians to the Left of me, Useful Idiots to the Right...)
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To: dangus

Looks like the recipe for trouble.


11 posted on 05/13/2014 3:22:26 PM PDT by OldNewYork
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To: tcrlaf
Like the India-Pakistan breakup, there will likely be a two-way exodus.

No not at all.

Folks who don't want to be part of Russia will now leave Donetsk and Luhansk.

Folks who want to be part of Russia could have done so before the current events in E. Ukraine so there won't be any additional movement in that direction.

12 posted on 05/13/2014 3:26:41 PM PDT by FreeReign
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To: FreeReign

“Folks who want to be part of Russia could have done so before the current events in E. Ukraine so there won’t be any additional movement in that direction.”

You could be correct.


13 posted on 05/13/2014 3:32:55 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
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To: Zhang Fei

BINGO! CAPTAIN OBVIOUS, you’ve been badly needed around here.

Unless they WANT to join Russia, absorbing them can only cause trouble for Putin. Crimea was a special case; Crimeans have regretted joining Ukraine for decades. Kiev should have let them depart peacefully. Instead, they gave Donestk and Luhansk separatists plenty of gray area. You’ll notice Russia has been a lot slower to pounce on these oblasts... because Putin is far less certain that he’d be better off with them as Russian voters.


14 posted on 05/13/2014 7:02:48 PM PDT by dangus
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To: tcrlaf

The only place to go to keep on speaking Ukrainian much longer is going to be the ancient history department of some university...


15 posted on 05/13/2014 7:04:26 PM PDT by varmintman (It must really suck to be a Nazi in Kiev these days...)
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To: FreeReign

I think tcrlef believes that without the rest of Russophones in Eastern Ukraine, the Russophone minority in Western/Northern Ukraine would feel much more like a threatened minority. Picture being a Republican in New Hampshire if the South and Big West states seceded: you’d have no hope of political influence in your own nation. You might decide you have more reason to move to Texas.


16 posted on 05/13/2014 7:05:48 PM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus
Language is nationality. America had better learn that quick.

A bit more to it than that. TV and the internet are shinking the world at an accelerating rate. Even fifteen years from now, there are going to be no more than ten or twelve languages which anybody still speaks: Two Germanic languages (English and German), three Romance languages (French, Spanish, and Italian), one Slavic language (Russian), Hebrew, Ababic, one subcontinent language (Hindi), both flavors of Chinese, Japanese, and Korean, and that's about it.

Ukrainian is a dead language walking. The interviews we're seeing from Ukrain are all in Russian. Everybody in Ukraine who isn't retarded speaks Russian now and even the retards will catch up in five years.

17 posted on 05/13/2014 7:10:38 PM PDT by varmintman (It must really suck to be a Nazi in Kiev these days...)
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To: dangus

Switzerland does fine with three official languages.

It’s shared values and customs.


18 posted on 05/13/2014 7:12:05 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: rbmillerjr

I’m certain it’s too late for national reconciliation. The Kiev regime has a choice: negotiate a peace and allow a small portion of their nation to secede, or put down the insurrection by force, and rule by repression with unrest not only in Donetsk and Luhansk, but throughout most of Ukraine in a Northern-Ireland like situation (at BEST!) that lasts for decades. I don’t even hold out much hope for some high-autonomy confederation, since way back in the 90s, Kiev unilaterally suspended Crimean autonomy, abolished the legislature and presidency of Crimea, and subjected Crimea to autocratic rule from Kiev.


19 posted on 05/13/2014 7:12:48 PM PDT by dangus
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To: varmintman
A bit more to it than that. TV and the internet are shinking the world at an accelerating rate. Even fifteen years from now, there are going to be no more than ten or twelve languages which anybody still speaks: Two Germanic languages (English and German), three Romance languages (French, Spanish, and Italian), one Slavic language (Russian), Hebrew, Ababic, one subcontinent language (Hindi), both flavors of Chinese, Japanese, and Korean, and that's about it.

.....and Ebonics.

20 posted on 05/13/2014 7:14:35 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: dangus

“The Kiev regime has a choice: negotiate a peace and allow a small portion of their nation to secede, or put down the insurrection by force, and rule by repression”

The ball is in the insurgents court. They can lay down their arms and come out of the buildings they are holding illegally... and by agreement by Russia, were to come out weeks ago.


21 posted on 05/13/2014 7:18:27 PM PDT by rbmillerjr (Russians to the Left of me, Useful Idiots to the Right...)
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To: dfwgator

Don’t misunderstand me: Ukraine COULD HAVE been a bilingual state. But that ship has sailed. Both languages are getting their propaganda from opposite sides, and there’s not enough in common. (Actually, Switzerland has FOUR official languages,... but also highly autonomous cantons.)


22 posted on 05/13/2014 7:39:33 PM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus

I think the comparison with Northern Ireland is apropos, many parallels, “Holomodor” = “Potato Famine”


23 posted on 05/13/2014 7:41:01 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: varmintman

For now, “Ukrainian” persists by suppressing Russian. More Ukrainians speak Russian than “Ukrainian” in their own home. In the last census, many of these call Ukrainian their native language because they regard themselves as Ukrainian, not Russian, and Ukrainian is the language of Ukraine. And I think this is where outsiders tragically misunderstood the situation on the ground: they figured Russians were a 17% minority, but when the Western press demonizes “Russians”, all of the 34% of Ukrainians who identified Russian as their “native language” probably identify with those demonized. And that’s a massive supermajority of Donetsk and Luhansk.

Beyond that, the 45% of Ukrainians who choose to speak Russian in their homes (including nearly 100% of Donetsk and Luhansk residents), in the face of official discrimination against Russian, are probably more effective propagandized by Moscow than Kiev. And this is where the portion of Donetsk and Luhansk voters who favor secession could have grown so quickly as unarmed civilians get killed.


24 posted on 05/13/2014 8:05:05 PM PDT by dangus
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To: dfwgator
Ebonics will be the official government language of the US.

Thanks, I'd forgotten about that one...

25 posted on 05/13/2014 8:16:58 PM PDT by varmintman (It must really suck to be a Nazi in Kiev these days...)
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To: dfwgator; varmintman

I disagree about the internet killing off languages. The internet will create a limited number of linguae franca (is that pluralization correct?), but international, internet English (for instance) is shallow, inarticulate, and useless for legal, technical, religious or literary purposes.

One of the revolutions of Anglosphere Protestantism was the elimination of using separate languages for writing vs. speaking, and even in the pre-internet era, there were strongly distinct tones in writing vs. speaking English. We forget that for a millenium, Europe spoke dozens of languages while writing exclusively in Latin. Or that the Islamic world speaks 100 languages, but writes chiefly in Arabic. This is NORMAL. And when Dutch or Norwegian or Swedish people use the internet, they will write in English, but speak in Dutch, Norwegian or Swedish.


26 posted on 05/13/2014 8:21:17 PM PDT by dangus
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To: Forward the Light Brigade

There is practically no ethnic difference between Ukrainians and Moscowites. The languages are similar (not the same, but similar) and their histories are intertwined.


27 posted on 05/13/2014 8:42:26 PM PDT by Cronos (Obama’s dislike of Assad is not based on Assad’s brutality but that he isn't a jihadi Moslem)
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To: Forward the Light Brigade

no, sudentenland was not the end. If you read the Mein K, Hitler was very clear on what he wanted to do.


28 posted on 05/13/2014 8:48:08 PM PDT by Cronos (Obama’s dislike of Assad is not based on Assad’s brutality but that he isn't a jihadi Moslem)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Russians (racially)?? the “race” of both Moscowites and Ukrainians are the same, both East Slavic peoples.


29 posted on 05/13/2014 8:54:47 PM PDT by Cronos (Obama’s dislike of Assad is not based on Assad’s brutality but that he isn't a jihadi Moslem)
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To: varmintman
. Even fifteen years from now, there are going to be no more than ten or twelve languages which anybody still speaks: Two Germanic languages (English and German), three Romance languages (French, Spanish, and Italian), one Slavic language (Russian), Hebrew, Ababic, one subcontinent language (Hindi), both flavors of Chinese, Japanese, and Korean, and that's about it

Sorry, that's false, and here's why:

  1. germanic languages: the swedes, norwegians, Danes etc. are proud to speak English fluently but also retain their national languages. Also, what you call German is standard German, yet the regional languages like Swabian and Bavarian persist -- these are called dialects but imho are closer to languages
  2. Romance languages -- you forget the big one: Portuguese. Besides that, Romanian is still going strong
  3. Slavic language: utterly wrong. No Slav outside Russia/Ukraine/Belarus wants to speak Russian -- Polish, Czech, Slovak, Serbo-Croat, Bulgarian/Macedonian are going strong
  4. Indian languages -- while Hindi is strong, it's only 40% of India's population who speak it. The other indo-european languages like Punjabi, Marathi and Bengali have millions if not hundreds of millions of speakers. Besides this there are the Dravidian languages like Tamil, Malayalam, Telugu, Kannada even Tulu which are very strong -- Tamil is spread over nearly 70 million speakers over a wider geographic area
  5. and you forget Swahili and Bahasa Indonesian

30 posted on 05/13/2014 9:02:14 PM PDT by Cronos (Obama’s dislike of Assad is not based on Assad’s brutality but that he isn't a jihadi Moslem)
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To: varmintman

There are more languages than that in Africa...


31 posted on 05/14/2014 7:04:37 AM PDT by bill1952 (taxes don't hurt the rich, they keep YOU from becoming rich.)
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To: rbmillerjr
The ball is in the insurgents court. They can lay down their arms and come out of the buildings they are holding illegally.

You sure you're not talking about the regime in Kiev?

32 posted on 05/14/2014 7:08:17 AM PDT by McGruff (#BringBackOurJobs)
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To: bill1952

And they’ll all be gone in 20 years...


33 posted on 05/14/2014 7:12:39 AM PDT by varmintman (It must really suck to be a Nazi in Kiev these days...)
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To: McGruff

Repeating your Russian propaganda narrative makes it no less a lie. It is Russian propaganda no matter how many times you say it. lol

The Russian stooge is back in Russia and was removed legally from office after he quit. He quit because he was going to go to jail for betraying and stealing money from Ukraine.


34 posted on 05/14/2014 7:13:09 AM PDT by rbmillerjr (Russians to the Left of me, Useful Idiots to the Right...)
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To: FreeReign

it would seem to be the correct strategy were one not to wish to assume room temperature..


35 posted on 05/14/2014 8:16:24 PM PDT by RitchieAprile
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