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Did Putin Plan the Odessa Massacre?
National Review Online ^ | May 13, 2014 | Robert Zubrin

Posted on 05/13/2014 11:02:27 AM PDT by AU72

In 1943, having murdered most of the Jewish population of the occupied portions of the Soviet Union, the Nazis launched a campaign to exterminate the Slavs as well. As part of this effort, Nazi SS units under the command of Himmler protégé Jochem Peiper (who later achieved infamy in the West as well for his massacre of captured GIs at Malmedy during the Battle of the Bulge) systematically rounded up Russian, Ukrainian, and Belarussian villagers, herded them into their churches, blocked the doors, and set them ablaze. Over a thousand such massacres were perpetrated, and the memory of these horrific crimes is deeply seared into the Russian psyche.

So it was easily predictable, when a similar scene was enacted in Odessa on May 2, with 42 pro-Russian activists burned to death or killed by smoke inhalation while trapped in the city’s Trade Union building, that ferocious rage and demands for revenge should break out in every part of Russia and every ethnic-Russian community in Ukraine. Indeed, in eliminating dissent and unifying Putin’s subjects into a mad herd behind his plans for war and fascism, the massacre could hardly have better served his aims and objectives if the former spymaster had planned it himself.

So the question is, did he?

To a person whose knowledge is limited to the Western political universe, the idea that Putin, or his FSB, might have knowingly arranged for the massacre of 42 Russians to gain political advantage might seem fantastical, like the conspiracy theories that blame FDR for setting up the Pacific Fleet to be sunk at Pearl Harbor or George Bush for plotting with the FBI to ensure the success of the 9/11 attack. But the FSB is nothing like a Western military-intelligence or police agency. The FSB does not exist to protect Russians. It exists to oppress them. Within the past century, the FSB and its prior incarnations under other initials (KGB, MVD, NKVD, GPU, OGPU) have murdered millions of Russians and other Soviet citizens, including many of the country’s most talented people, and particularly those most critically necessary for its actual national defense. Far from being unknown, exceptional, or even occasional, terror (along with lies, disinformation, hate campaigns, frame-ups, murder, mass murder, and genocide) has been the standard operating procedure of the FSB and its predecessors since 1917.

Furthermore, as far as Putin himself is concerned, the dictator’s willingness to employ FSB operatives in covert operations involving the murder of not dozens but hundreds of Russians to achieve political manipulation has already been demonstrated. Specifically, in 1999, when he had just stepped down as the head of the FSB and become prime minister, Putin murdered over 300 Russians by having the FSB explode a series of bombs in apartment buildings in Moscow in order to justify a new war in Chechnya and seize dictatorial powers. All known evidence indicates that the FSB was responsible for those bombings, because they stopped only when local Russian cops on the beat caught FSB agents red-handed in the act of planting explosives for the next “terrorist” attack.

Those who exposed these crimes internationally, including former FSB operative Aleksandr Litvinenko, Putin had murdered, using polonium — a radioactive element that is not commercially available except in minute quantities for scientific uses — as the poison, so that everyone would know who did it, and accordingly fear his FSB for its unlimited capacity to commit evil.

So there is no question that Putin had the motive, capability, and character to arrange for the Odessa massacre. Furthermore, he is the only one of the potential suspects to have, in addition to those characteristics, a history of prior comparable acts. The method and timing of the slaughter — coming a week before Victory Day, thereby maximizing its resonance with World War II memories — fit his needs with unique perfection, and, since then, he has been openly exploiting it for all it is worth. In combination, these facts would be enough to make Putin the prime suspect in any police investigation of the mass murder. But the evidence of premeditated culpability goes further.

Specifically, on March 9 — that is, before the March 15 Crimea referendum and subsequent annexation, and well before the early-April initiation of attacks on government buildings in Donetsk and other parts of eastern Ukraine — top Kremlin fascist ideologue and geopolitical strategist Aleksandr Dugin published the entire plan for the currently unfolding “Scenario Russian Spring” on his Russian-language Facebook page. This scenario, whose name “Russian Spring” has become a slogan carried on banners in many of the demonstrations by the Russian-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine, lays out a plan for creating havoc resulting in a civil war in Ukraine and consolidation of totalitarian dictatorship in Russia. In Dugin’s scenario, this would be followed by a Russian invasion of Ukraine, with further operations leading to complete Russian domination of Europe and the subsequent creation of a Moscow-centered Eurasian Union stretching “from Lisbon to Vladivostok.”

A key section reads as follows:

3. . . . In Russia itself, the regime evolves, and starts to clean out the fifth column.

4. In Novorossia [the Kremlin’s revived tsarist term for a large region of eastern and southern Ukraine], resistance increases and gradually moves to the phase of direct rebellion against the Kiev henchmen. There is a bloody civil war. Russia deploys massive effective support structure; symmetrically, the West supports Kiev. At a certain moment, in response to the sabotage in Russia and bloody actions of the nationalists and the repressive apparatus of Kiev against civilians and the east of Ukraine, Russia sends its troops into the east.

In short, all the violence currently occurring in Ukraine, including but by no means limited to the Odessa massacre, as well as the concurrent crackdown on dissent in Russia (opposition and independent media outlets are being shut down, the Voice of America has been shut down, new laws requiring citizens to spy on each other are being set forth, social media is being restricted, etc.), is clearly part of a preplanned script.

So, that being the case, how could Putin’s stage managers have put the script into effect in Odessa? It’s really rather straightforward.

It was known well in advance that there would be a pro-Ukraine march of football fans in Odessa on May 2. Accordingly, Moscow agents in Odessa put out the call for ethnic Russians to gather and confront the demonstration with one of their own. But they also sent in Russian military operatives from Crimea and Transnistria to take control of the pro-Russia crowd. When the day came, the Ukrainian marchers were about a thousand strong, while the Russians had a group of only about 200. Across Europe, football fans are notorious brawlers, and the Ukrainian marchers included a preponderance of burly young men who could be expected to fight back hard if their demonstration was assaulted. Nevertheless, despite the fact that they were outnumbered five to one, the special-forces officers controlling the pro-Russian mob chose to lead it to attack the Ukrainian parade.

As recent events have shown, the Russian special military operatives are superbly competent. Why would they launch a street fight with such inferior forces? Surely they must have known that they would be beaten into retreat? They surely did.

The street battles between opposing mobs that have been taking place in Ukraine recently bear a close resemblance to pre-modern warfare, in that the fighting is predominantly through direct physical contact and the forces involved are undisciplined. In this kind of combat, when one side retreats, the other virtually inevitably is drawn to follow. It is thus a classic stratagem in such battles for a clever commander to launch an attack with an inferior force in order to have it thrown back, thereby luring the enemy into hot-blooded pursuit, and thus into ambush. This tactic was used, for example, with great success by Hannibal at the battles of the Trebia and Lake Trasimene, and by William the Conqueror at Hastings.

The Kremlin operatives controlling the pro-Russian crowd followed these examples to the point of inciting the Ukrainians into pursuit, but instead of leading the Ukrainians into an ambush, they led their own followers into a trap. And once they had them there, in the Trade Union building surrounded by an angry Ukrainian mob, and someone started to throw Molotov cocktails down from the roof, the horrific outcome was predictable.

Who set off the fire bomb that ignited the fatal blaze? The Ukrainians say it was the Russian partisans on the roof, or on the third floor. The Russians claim the bomb was thrown into the building by someone in the mob outside. At this point it is impossible to sort these claims out, but it doesn’t matter. If the fire bomb came from inside the building, then case closed. If it came from outside, it could have easily have been tossed by an FSB provocateur planted in the crowd, as the employment of bomb-throwing agents for the purpose of discrediting opposition forces has been a standard tactic of Russian secret police since the days of the tsarist Okhrana.

This supposition is strongly supported by the fact that on April 25, seven days before the fire, the Ukrainian security service, the SBU, caught a group of Putinite terrorists led by an operative from Crimea attempting to set fire to an Odessa bank using Molotov cocktails. According to the SBU, the group had actually been commissioned by one of the Russian TV channels to create “footage,” and received financial rewards for each organized incident.

But even if the fatal gasoline bottle was thrown by an actual Ukrainian hooligan not on the FSB payroll, the primary blame must still lie with the Kremlin stage managers. For they are the ones who planned and set up the whole bloody show — and who are exploiting it to the hilt for hate promotion and public manipulation, including by editing out inconvenient photographs that show the Ukrainians trying to rescue those trapped in the burning building.

The Russian people are fighting mad about Odessa. Across the nation, they are displaying slogans that say things like “Odessa: We will not forget. We will not forgive.”

They have a point. Those who invented, planned, and engineered the fractricidal slaughter in Ukraine should be held accountable. Let us hope that the Russians catch on in time, and bring the real fascist conspirators to justice.


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; News/Current Events; Russia
KEYWORDS: cabal; globalists; odessa; putin; reichstagfire; soros; ukraine; ukrainecrisis
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There's also the Moscow movie house debacle where scores of hostages were killed by poison gas ignited by special forces.
1 posted on 05/13/2014 11:02:27 AM PDT by AU72
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To: AU72
Robert Zubrin is president of Pioneer Energy of Lakewood, Colo., and the author of Energy Victory. The paperback edition of his latest book, Merchants of Despair: Radical Environmentalists, Criminal Pseudo-Scientists, and the Fatal Cult of Antihumanism, was recently published by Encounter Books.

Guess that makes him an expert on inhuman behavior. /s

2 posted on 05/13/2014 11:12:14 AM PDT by McGruff (Let Freedom Ring.)
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To: AU72
The Odessa Massacre happened in the fall of 1941 and winter of 1942.

Vladimir Putin was born October 7th 1952.

3 posted on 05/13/2014 11:14:13 AM PDT by TigersEye ("No man left behind" is more than an Army Ranger credo it's the character of America.)
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To: AU72

You can’t take seriously any propagandist who calls Aleksandr Dugin a “top Kremlin fascist ideologue and geopolitical strategist.” That’s like calling Rev. Jeremiah Wright a “top Bush neo-conservative ideologue and geopolitical strategist.”


4 posted on 05/13/2014 11:14:38 AM PDT by dangus
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"Freedom is the sure possession of those alone
who have the courage to defend it."

~Pericles




Please support Free Republic
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5 posted on 05/13/2014 11:15:05 AM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: AU72

A little before his time, don'cha think?

6 posted on 05/13/2014 11:16:05 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: AU72

More sensibly .... did the SOROS-Obama-Jarrett cabal plan and execute the Nazi attack on Russian supporters, burning them alive in an attempt to instill fear and silence opposition .... in good ‘ole Nazi time tested tradition???


7 posted on 05/13/2014 11:17:24 AM PDT by Ancient Wonderboy
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To: TigersEye
The Odessa Massacre happened in the fall of 1941 and winter of 1942. Vladimir Putin was born October 7th 1952.

THAT'S HOW CLEVER PUTIN IS!

He's been doing nefarious things since well before he was born!

8 posted on 05/13/2014 11:19:18 AM PDT by Lazamataz (Early 2009 to 7/21/2013 - RIP my little girl Cathy. You were the best cat ever. You will be missed.)
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To: dangus

A reasonable author can believe in a conspiracy, especially given cloudy environs like the fall of the Soviet Union. But to state the conspiracy as if it had been demonstrated and accepted as fact is to rightfully earn oneself the scorn and derision commonly given conspiracy mongers, especially when the attacks were publicly announced by the perpetrators of the attacks before they began.


9 posted on 05/13/2014 11:21:24 AM PDT by dangus
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To: AU72

Reichstag Fire ping


10 posted on 05/13/2014 11:24:57 AM PDT by samtheman
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To: Lazamataz

Dayum!!! I’m ordering a Rosetta Stone in Russian while copies are still available.


11 posted on 05/13/2014 11:28:57 AM PDT by TigersEye ("No man left behind" is more than an Army Ranger credo it's the character of America.)
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To: AU72

850 people were held hostage by 40-50 Chechen terrorists. A chemical gas was used successfully to placate the terrorists. The problem was that titrating a sleep-inducing drug is impossible in such conditions, and 130 hostages were also killed, mostly by overdoses of the drug. Doctors on the scene criticized the operation because they were not told what drug had been used, and so could not effectively counter its effects among the innocent. I would certainly call it a debacle. I would not call it evidence that Putin murders his own people for political points.


12 posted on 05/13/2014 11:29:08 AM PDT by dangus
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To: AU72

Whether or not he did, Pro-Russians aren’t messing around in Odessa anymore are they?


13 posted on 05/13/2014 11:31:50 AM PDT by demshateGod (The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.)
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To: AU72

I am sure some Russian cleaning woman will be brought forth to say “What, at this point, does it matter?”


14 posted on 05/13/2014 11:33:50 AM PDT by GeronL (Vote for Conservatives not for Republicans!)
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To: AU72

The author presents no evidence. The fact that Russian special forces did not aid in the battle of Odessa is presented not as a demonstration that Russia isn’t using special forces in Odessa, but as proof that Russia wanted its allies to lose to set up the scene for the Odessa massacre. When the brutality of Kiev backfires, this is not evidence that Kiev acted with passion blinded by hatred, but as proof that Russia wanted it to happen, and so therefore, by extension, proof that Russia did it.

I know National Review has become a haunt of establishment GOP types like Frum but I’m rather stunned to read its become the haunt of fanatical conspiracists so desperate to cover for a failed MSM narrative that they invent such psychotic drivel.

>> So it was easily predictable, when a similar scene was enacted in Odessa on May 2, with 42 pro-Russian activists burned to death or killed by smoke inhalation while trapped in the city’s Trade Union building, that ferocious rage and demands for revenge should break out in every part of Russia and every ethnic-Russian community in Ukraine. Indeed, in eliminating dissent and unifying Putin’s subjects into a mad herd behind his plans for war and fascism, the massacre could hardly have better served his aims and objectives if the former spymaster had planned it himself. <<


15 posted on 05/13/2014 11:36:11 AM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus; All

Dugin is indeed a “Kremlin fascist ideologue” with links to the Kremlin and a top position in a university. He also appears on state run Russian media. If he was not supported or useful for the regime, he would not maintain his position nor ever be heard of.


16 posted on 05/13/2014 11:37:24 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: AU72

This guy doesn’t sound biased.

Article: Did Putin Plan the Odessa Massacre? 5/13/14
Article: Putin’s Anti-Fracking Campaign 5/5/14
The Corner: The War with the Newts: A Prophetic Satire Is Once Again Relevant 4/29/14
Article: End the Natural-Gas Blockade 4/25/14
Article: The Pacific’s Salmon Are Back — Thank Human Ingenuity 4/22/14
Article: Putin’s ‘Russian Spring’ 4/14/14
The Corner: Russians March Against Putin 3/16/14
Article: How to Defeat Putin 3/13/14
The Corner: Putin Adviser Publishes Plan for Domination of Europe 3/10/14
Article: The Eurasianist Threat 3/3/14
Article: Cuba: The Holodomor Next Door 2/20/14
Article: Russia Needs Human Rights 2/12/14
Article: How We Can Help Ukraine 1/2/14
Article: America, Stop Breathing 10/31/13

Not!


17 posted on 05/13/2014 11:38:57 AM PDT by McGruff (Let Freedom Ring.)
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To: dangus

We don’t know if the FSB was behind the Odessa fire, but we do know the FSB has killed lots of people under orders of Putin, and that is not a conspiracy theory.


18 posted on 05/13/2014 11:39:13 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: dangus

I agree that this column veers into conspiracy theory, but since when have FReepers been so dismissive of false-flag theories?


19 posted on 05/13/2014 11:40:47 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: McGruff

He’s a conservative judging from the books he’s published, and most normal conservatives are anti-communist and patriotic, making them naturally suspicious of the Kremlin which is still supporting communist movements and governments across the world.


20 posted on 05/13/2014 11:41:14 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Ukrainian Nazis have also killed a lot of people.


21 posted on 05/13/2014 11:47:43 AM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office.)
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To: DesertRhino
Ukrainian Nazis have also killed a lot of people.

Not as many as Russian Communists, not even close.

22 posted on 05/13/2014 11:50:53 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Its also odd to see “conservatives” suddenly in in agreement with Obama, Kerry, McCain, Ashton, the EU bankers, Soros, the MSM, and the Nazi elements of Ukraine.
They only fault Obama for one thing, not doing more for the Kiev putsch, sometimes even advocating US forces directly engaging the Russians.


23 posted on 05/13/2014 11:51:35 AM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
Ukrainian Nazis have also killed a lot of people. Not as many as Russian Communists, not even close.

Yeah, only a couple hundred thousand Poles.

24 posted on 05/13/2014 11:52:34 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Riiiiight. Because when you’re inside the political circle, you publish the conspiracies you wish would unfold in the public press, as opposed to whisper them to the key officials needed to make it happen (/sarcasm).

Of course, the author excluded the part where Dugin called for the close cooperation of Turkish Islamofascists to support Russia’s move into Odessa. See, Putin is part of an alliance between the Russian Orthodox Church, family-run farmers, anti-Communists and native Russian industrialists. Dugin’s faction is composed of neo-Stalinists, an insufficiently small handful of oligarchs which have been broken up by Putin, Islamofascists, Chi-com wanna-bes and atheist extremists. Yeah, you’re free to believe Putin’s Christianity is bulls**t; the point is constituencies, not seeing deep into his soul. And Dugin and Putin have fundamentally opposed constituencies.

If you want a conspiracy that says Dugin and Putin are close, then the more reasonable conspiracy is not that Putin is secretly an admirer of Dugin, but rather that Putin has set Dugin up as an ineffective leader of communist malcontents, much like the way it seems that Boehner is a closet socialist pretending to be an ineffective leader of conservatives.


25 posted on 05/13/2014 11:52:42 AM PDT by dangus
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To: DesertRhino
They only fault Obama for one thing, not doing more for the Kiev putsch,

The Putinistas are liars who want to paint anyone who doesn't have their lips on Putin's butt as somehow being "Pro-Obama." We can easily oppose Obama and not embrace Russian Fascism/Communism, which really these days are hard to tell apart. Putin has successfully united the fascists and new right movements across Europe with the far left communists of his country.

26 posted on 05/13/2014 11:54:27 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Actually, its very close. Its so many that you are arguing 6 million vs 7 million. Both were nightmares and neither deserves your sick kudos. But lets say the USSR killed more in the 30s. The Uke Nazis killed more in the 40s.
But either way, no Ukrainian Nazi deserves to be seen as a fine alternative to modern Russian life.
Weird to see actual Nazi apologetics. Oh well, its progress. A few weeks ago you’d refuse to even acknowledge that Uke Nazis even existed.


27 posted on 05/13/2014 11:56:19 AM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office.)
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To: dfwgator; Greetings_Puny_Humans

It’s entirely true that Soviet Communists killed far more people than Ukrainian Nazis. But lets compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges, shall we? If we are to lump Georgian Stalin and Ukrainian Brezhnev in with the Soviet Communists, as one must, then compare All Soviet Communists with ALL Nazis, not just the Ukrainian Nazi wanna-bes. Here we find the death toll very similar.

But let’s talk recent history? Putin disavows the communists far more sternly and aggressively than Obama or even BUSH for that matter. His every address deconstructs the ideology of statism, not merely the violent excesses of historic individuals. Conversely, the Svoboda party still worships the Banderites.


28 posted on 05/13/2014 11:57:47 AM PDT by dangus
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To: DesertRhino
Its also odd to see “conservatives” suddenly in in agreement with Obama, Kerry, McCain, Ashton, the EU bankers, Soros, the MSM, and the Nazi elements of Ukraine.

Not odd at all, however, to see logical fallacies on FR.

29 posted on 05/13/2014 12:00:58 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: dfwgator

They did a half a million in Belzec alone. And that doesn’t even scratch the surface of the Ukrainian SS formations and work in other death camps.
No one should admire Soviets, but that doesn’t make people they fought against any better. Not one bit.


30 posted on 05/13/2014 12:00:58 PM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office.)
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To: dangus
If we are to lump Georgian Stalin and Ukrainian Brezhnev in with the Soviet Communists, as one must, then compare All Soviet Communists with ALL Nazis, not just the Ukrainian Nazi wanna-bes. Here we find the death toll very similar.

What are your estimated numbers? Let's hear them.

31 posted on 05/13/2014 12:01:53 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: dangus
Of course, the author excluded the part where Dugin called for the close cooperation of Turkish Islamofascists to support Russia’s move into Odessa. See, Putin is part of an alliance between the Russian Orthodox Church, family-run farmers, anti-Communists and native Russian industrialists.

Putin does indeed support communist movements across the world and, as well, the Neo-Nazi right of Europe. This is not a conspiracy theory. You can look who shows up on state run media or ask Hugo Chavez or FARC how they feel about Russia's aid. Same thing with Iran, which still receives Russia's political defense and nuclear support.

This idea of Putin being a radical anti-communist is a new one, though the idea that he is a "Christian" is an old one. I'll add that the Russian Orthodox church has a patriarch who is a known KGB agent, and all the contenders for the position were also known KGB agents. Currently, in Russia, they are training Russian-speaking Imams to send to different parts of the middle east, presumably to do to the Muslims what they did with Christianity with the KGB's invention of Liberation theology.

32 posted on 05/13/2014 12:03:32 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: DesertRhino

It’s odd to see conservatives take sides with either side.

I think Russia has fomented chaos for precisely because they wanted that territory.


33 posted on 05/13/2014 12:04:21 PM PDT by GeronL (Vote for Conservatives not for Republicans!)
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To: DesertRhino
Actually, its very close. Its so many that you are arguing 6 million vs 7 million.

There were no millions of people murdered by Ukrainian Nazis in WWII, unless you want to make Hitler Ukrainian, though a lot of them did die. There were also lots of Ukrainians in the Red army, killing lots of Nazis too. Trying to paint modern Ukraine as a Nazi state, however, and pinning on them the crimes of WWII, is just pure stupidity.

34 posted on 05/13/2014 12:06:17 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Nope, not possible. Because you taught us that thinking that the Kiev Nazis were illegitimate putschsters meant we were only Putin butt kissers. So the same goes for you, you support the Kiev buddies of Obama, so you are clearly an Obama/Kerry/EU/McCain supporter.

And also probably still kinda mad about Putin not letting the homos take over still.

Just using your logic.


35 posted on 05/13/2014 12:07:40 PM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office.)
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To: GeronL

You might check the record there. Nothing happened in Ukraine till Putin stopped Obama from helping Al Qeida in Syria. Then Nuland and Obama dumped 5 billion onto the heads of Ukrainian opposition groups.

We started this nightmare for those people.


36 posted on 05/13/2014 12:10:40 PM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

The Galican SS division disagrees with you. So does Bandera.


37 posted on 05/13/2014 12:11:48 PM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office.)
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To: AU72
killed by smoke inhalation

Is someone trying to say they weren't MURDERED?

HF

38 posted on 05/13/2014 12:12:26 PM PDT by holden
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To: DesertRhino

The nightmare really started when it became a Stalinist country, hopefully they can fix that since dumping their tyrant


39 posted on 05/13/2014 12:13:16 PM PDT by GeronL (Vote for Conservatives not for Republicans!)
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To: holden

Yes, the Kiev Nazi party is. (and Obamas astroturfers on FR)


40 posted on 05/13/2014 12:13:49 PM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office.)
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To: GeronL

The fact is, nobody has been Stalinist there for a long time. But lets just say they are for the sake of Argument. Would Nazis seem like an improvement to you?


41 posted on 05/13/2014 12:15:49 PM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office.)
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To: dangus
But let’s talk recent history? Putin disavows the communists far more sternly and aggressively than Obama or even BUSH for that matter.

Putin disavows a immediate return to communism in his budding USSR. He does not disavow Stalin or Lenin, and has actively honored their memory. Nor does he fight communists, but has them in his government, on his TV, and as the recipients of his aid.

42 posted on 05/13/2014 12:18:00 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: DesertRhino
Nope, not possible. Because you taught us that thinking that the Kiev Nazis were illegitimate putschsters meant we were only Putin butt kissers.

The problem is that you presuppose that the Ukrainians are Nazis, which is the position of the Kremlin, and therefore make you a Putin butt kisser for taking it uncritically. Opposing Putin and opposing Obama is still a safe bet, even despite what the Putinista trolls bark about.

43 posted on 05/13/2014 12:20:45 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: TigersEye

I think the author is referring to the Odessa Massacre from this year on May 2


44 posted on 05/13/2014 12:21:21 PM PDT by surroundedbyblue (Bitter clinger & creepy-ass cracker)
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To: DesertRhino
The Galican SS division disagrees with you. So does Bandera.

Disagree with what? What fact are you disputing? The fact that Ukrainians fought in the red army? There were veterans of the red army in the Maidan, and IDF veterans too.

45 posted on 05/13/2014 12:22:56 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: surroundedbyblue

If he is then it’s the most poorly written article I’ve seen in some time.


46 posted on 05/13/2014 12:26:24 PM PDT by TigersEye ("No man left behind" is more than an Army Ranger credo it's the character of America.)
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To: DesertRhino
Then Nuland and Obama dumped 5 billion onto the heads of Ukrainian opposition groups.

Who knew that Nuland and Obama were in the Administration/Congress and spending that money since 1992 until Russia Today reported it?

47 posted on 05/13/2014 12:28:39 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: TigersEye

Really? Here’s paragraph two:

“So it was easily predictable, when a similar scene was enacted in Odessa on May 2, with 42 pro-Russian activists burned to death or killed by smoke inhalation while trapped in the city’s Trade Union building, that ferocious rage and demands for revenge should break out in every part of Russia and every ethnic-Russian community in Ukraine. Indeed, in eliminating dissent and unifying Putin’s subjects into a mad herd behind his plans for war and fascism, the massacre could hardly have better served his aims and objectives if the former spymaster had planned it himself”

Makes sense to me


48 posted on 05/13/2014 12:29:25 PM PDT by surroundedbyblue (Bitter clinger & creepy-ass cracker)
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To: DesertRhino

Nazis and commies are just two sides of the same coin, both are evil


49 posted on 05/13/2014 12:29:33 PM PDT by GeronL (Vote for Conservatives not for Republicans!)
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To: DesertRhino; GeronL

No Stalinists? What about people who think Stalin really wasn’t so bad?

“What’s the real difference between Cromwell and Stalin? None whatsoever,” Putin said at a press conference Thursday.
Putin said Stalin deserves statues in his honor as much as the late British lord protector, a “cunning fellow” who “played a very ambiguous role in Britain’s history.”
But unlike Cromwell, Stalin has a lack of state-endorsed monuments in his honor, Putin said.
Putin made the comments in response to a question about a Stalin monument possibly being erected in Moscow.
Authorities in the Russian capital recently announced plans to commemorate all Soviet leaders who lived in the city.”
http://en.ria.ru/russia/20131219/185734707/Putin-Says-Stalin-No-Worse-Than-Cunning-Oliver-Cromwell.html


50 posted on 05/13/2014 12:30:18 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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