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Ukraine crisis: Kiev talks open without rebels
BBC NEWS ^ | May 14, 2014 | BBC NEWS STAFF

Posted on 05/14/2014 10:36:30 AM PDT by FBD

Talks to end the crisis in Ukraine have begun in Kiev, brokered by international monitors, but pro-Russian rebels are not represented.

Ukraine's interim leaders and other public figures are at the talks, which are part of an OSCE roadmap plan.

The "national unity round table" was meant to be as inclusive as possible.

The interim government has said the annexation of Crimea by Russia this year cost Ukraine at least 1tn hryvnya (£49.3bn; $83bn; 60.5bn euros).

A day earlier, Ukraine's military suffered its heaviest losses to the rebels so far in the fighting in the east, where rebels control a number of towns.

(Excerpt) Read more at bbc.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events; Russia
KEYWORDS: kiev; russia; ukraine
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Seems to me that Kiev is again making a mistake of not bringing in some representatives of this separatist movement. They've lost the eastern half of the country.
1 posted on 05/14/2014 10:36:30 AM PDT by FBD
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To: FBD

“The government in Kiev does not want to listen to the people of Donetsk,” Denis Patkovski, a member of a pro-Russian militia in Sloviansk, Donetsk region, told AP. “They just come here with their guns.”

And by not inviting them to the table, they prove his point.


2 posted on 05/14/2014 10:41:12 AM PDT by FBD
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To: FBD

how does one hold a “national unity round table” and exclude a 30% minority from the talks (ethnic russians)?


3 posted on 05/14/2014 10:50:41 AM PDT by ghost of stonewall jackson
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To: Ivan Mazepa; dangus; dfwgator; caww; tcrlaf; little jeremiah; kiryandil

Ping for your comments.
I’m still trying to figure this all out. IIt’s a pretty confused mess, in my opinion.


4 posted on 05/14/2014 10:52:45 AM PDT by FBD
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To: ghost of stonewall jackson

Yep, 15 million ethnic Russians living in Ukraine.
That’s a big error in my opinion.


5 posted on 05/14/2014 10:54:15 AM PDT by FBD
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To: FBD

How do you say “The Troubles” in Po Russkiy?


6 posted on 05/14/2014 10:55:30 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: FBD
The "national unity round table" was meant to be as inclusive as possible.

You're kidding me right?

7 posted on 05/14/2014 10:56:50 AM PDT by McGruff (#BringBackOurJobs)
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To: FBD

The subversives have refused to attend the negotiattions.

They were invited.


8 posted on 05/14/2014 10:58:49 AM PDT by rbmillerjr (Russians to the Left of me, Useful Idiots to the Right...)
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To: ghost of stonewall jackson
I see plenty of religious hats in the room. Surely they could have made a spot open for the 'separatists'.


9 posted on 05/14/2014 10:58:50 AM PDT by FBD
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To: FBD; All

This much is clear.
By not including the separatists, they are saying load and clear they have no intention of negotiating.

They aren’t trying to unify the country. They are trying to unify against the rebels, so they can put down dissent.

This sounds so much like it is coming, again, straight out of the White House ideologues.

Remember the “HealthCare Round Tables” Obama held at the White House, where Obama shouted down any criticism of Obamacare? Why does this remind me so much of that?


10 posted on 05/14/2014 11:03:19 AM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
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To: FBD

The Maidan regime is demonstrating for all to see how little it cares for the preservation of the country.

Without all political forces represented at the round table, it will not achieve results.


11 posted on 05/14/2014 11:03:49 AM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: All

The subversives have refused to attend the negotiattions.
They were invited.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/ukraine-talks-set-to-open-without-pro-russian-separatists/2014/05/14/621dbc6a-c7d9-40bc-b2e5-814a4108bbef_story.html

“Separatists, who declared “sovereignty” in two eastern Ukrainian regions this week, dismissed the talks in Kiev.”


12 posted on 05/14/2014 11:03:53 AM PDT by rbmillerjr (Russians to the Left of me, Useful Idiots to the Right...)
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To: McGruff
FRT: "The "national unity round table" was meant to be as inclusive as possible."

-Everyone included except for those in that "terrorist" region on the east side of the country.


13 posted on 05/14/2014 11:05:46 AM PDT by FBD
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To: FBD
It's intended to be to be chaotic....unfortunately.

Easier to understand when you determine the key players....

The people fighting on the ground, sadly, are the costs of those who are seeking control of Ukraine for it is a key country to Russia... and to the Eu/Nato/US.... Each with their own agenda for Dominance.

While Eu/Nato/US continued it's push for expansion of the Eu “empire” so to speak....snatching up former Russian Baltic countries on Putins border...Putin didn't say much...but his ‘red line’ was Ukraine...they crossed it in spite of his warnings....as with their attempts at Georgia...and they knew by doing so there would be a response.

Crimea was going to be the linchpin for the EU/Nato push and a key point of concentration..... Putin new this and why he focused there and did what we know now....remarkably without a shot fired.....though it appears more than enough citizens were eager to return to the Russian sphere, where they not long ago were a part of.

14 posted on 05/14/2014 11:06:07 AM PDT by caww
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To: FBD
It's intended to be to be chaotic....unfortunately.

Easier to understand when you determine the key players....

The people fighting on the ground, sadly, are the costs of those who are seeking control of Ukraine for it is a key country to Russia... and to the Eu/Nato/US.... Each with their own agenda for Dominance.

While Eu/Nato/US continued it's push for expansion of the Eu “empire” so to speak....snatching up former Russian Baltic countries on Putins border...Putin didn't say much...but his ‘red line’ was Ukraine...they crossed it in spite of his warnings....as with their attempts at Georgia...and they knew by doing so there would be a response.

Crimea was going to be the linchpin for the EU/Nato push and a key point of concentration..... Putin new this and why he focused there and did what we know now....remarkably without a shot fired.....though it appears more than enough citizens were eager to return to the Russian sphere, where they not long ago were a part of.

15 posted on 05/14/2014 11:06:08 AM PDT by caww
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To: tcrlaf

I wonder if Zbigniew Brzezinski is involved in this, as well?


16 posted on 05/14/2014 11:11:25 AM PDT by FBD
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To: All

It seems the subversives do not wish to be part of the elections...reason..read below from the Post article...polls indicate that they will lose big.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/ukraine-talks-set-to-open-without-pro-russian-separatists/2014/05/14/621dbc6a-c7d9-40bc-b2e5-814a4108bbef_story.html

“Taruta said he is in regular contact with the separatists, mainly over the issue of freeing hostages. But he said the makeup of the separatist negotiating team keeps changing because of internal power struggles, with no clear center of decision-making power.

“The problem is our opponents,” he said. “They don’t have one single representative who has the rights and responsibility to implement any agreements.”

***Separatist leaders in Donetsk and Luhansk were adamant that the Ukrainian elections would not take place in their regions.”***


17 posted on 05/14/2014 11:12:59 AM PDT by rbmillerjr (Russians to the Left of me, Useful Idiots to the Right...)
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To: FBD
....”by not inviting them to the table, they prove his point”.....

If they were to invite them it would mean ‘politically’ they acknowledge Donetsk's recent referendum...and they won't do that.

Frankly with Crimea now Russia...if they let the Eastern area go, which they really can't, and why the fight there has escalated... there's nothing left in Ukraine the EU/US wants...that is the military,science and tech. industrial area...big bucks flow thru there..and lots of labor...Putin's military factories there. So he's not going to let Kiev/US have this area.


18 posted on 05/14/2014 11:20:53 AM PDT by caww
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To: rbmillerjr
"The subversives have refused to attend the negotiattions.They were invited."

Well, these "subversives" in Donetsk, look like ordinary people to me. And after Kiev sent APC's, attack helicopters and tanks into their areas, is it any wonder they don't want anything to do with Kiev? I'm reminded of when Lincoln sent troops marching to Fort Sumter, and that turned many southern people against the north. Sending the military to shoot up where you live does that.


19 posted on 05/14/2014 11:22:23 AM PDT by FBD
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To: caww

The insurgents refuse to participate.

That would mean surrendering their arms and leaving the buildings... and they know they will lose the elections as people form E. Ukraine want to stay part of Ukraine per polling.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/ukraine-talks-set-to-open-without-pro-russian-separatists/2014/05/14/621dbc6a-c7d9-40bc-b2e5-814a4108bbef_story.html

“Separatist leaders in Donetsk and Luhansk were adamant that the Ukrainian elections would not take place in their regions.

Polls have indicated that most residents of eastern Ukraine would prefer to remain part of the country.”


20 posted on 05/14/2014 11:26:08 AM PDT by rbmillerjr (Russians to the Left of me, Useful Idiots to the Right...)
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To: caww

Interesting. I wasn’t aware of Russian factories in Ukraine. That explains a lot, thanks.


21 posted on 05/14/2014 11:27:18 AM PDT by FBD
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To: FBD

A few pictures of some old ladies is pure propaganda, unless these grannies miraculously change into super Soviet Heroine’s and shoot down choppers and ambush people.

Spare us the pictoral propaganda.

Unfortunately, the Russians have used these people as pawns and have now moved onto softer targets...looking at Moldova now. Face it, the Russkies didn’t want to pay the economic consequences for these people.

They have now gone home. The insurgents are holed up with no real options. They can stay there and not vote or come out and vote. Either way the polls indicate they lose the vote, even in E. Ukraine.


22 posted on 05/14/2014 11:36:16 AM PDT by rbmillerjr (Russians to the Left of me, Useful Idiots to the Right...)
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To: rbmillerjr

“Polls have indicated that most residents of eastern Ukraine would prefer to remain part of the country.””

Not that there is much stock in a poll like that, but Western Journos did note that as many people in the voting lines were voting against the coup regime, but wanted to stay Ukrainian, as there were that wanted independence.

The Odessa and Mauriupol Massacres totally changed the calculus. You will have that when someone is killing “your people”.


23 posted on 05/14/2014 11:38:42 AM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
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To: rbmillerjr
This isn't how you sway people to your side. Take a look at these guys, they aren't special forces, they're residents in towns that Kiev rolled tanks into. They're pissed off, and would say their anger is justified.


24 posted on 05/14/2014 11:41:31 AM PDT by FBD
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To: tcrlaf

“Not that there is much stock in a poll like that”

Much more stock in a poll than an anecdotal comment from a journalist to prove your point. That dog don’t hunt.

The proof is in the pudding. The subversives won’t come out to vote and say they will attempt to ban the election in their regions....the jig is up...quit flailing.


25 posted on 05/14/2014 11:45:03 AM PDT by rbmillerjr (Russians to the Left of me, Useful Idiots to the Right...)
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To: rbmillerjr; FBD

Just so you know.. A ‘Commander of Ukraine’ defected today, on this video, is now with the citizens resisting Kiev Government and encourages others to do likewise in South East Ukraine...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2OuKsqSUbs


26 posted on 05/14/2014 11:48:06 AM PDT by caww
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To: rbmillerjr
"Spare us the pictoral propaganda."

That photo I posted to you, was from YOUR LINK, at the Washington Post. Are you even looking at your own articles that you post? :-/

They have now gone home".

-You do realize that some 15 million Russian people are living in the eastern half of Ukraine, right? -that's their *home*.

27 posted on 05/14/2014 11:49:14 AM PDT by FBD
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To: FBD

“This isn’t how you sway people to your side. Take a look at these guys, they aren’t special forces, they’re residents in towns that Kiev rolled tanks into.”

Again pictures of people without weapons. Most of the subversives are in the buildings throughout E. Ukraine.

Are you really that stupid? Or are you just really that into being Putin’s lapdog propagandist?


28 posted on 05/14/2014 11:50:05 AM PDT by rbmillerjr (Russians to the Left of me, Useful Idiots to the Right...)
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To: tcrlaf
FYI...post 26.... A Kiev Army commander ‘defects’ to citizens today and encouraged others to follow...I can't speak the language so I don't know what he's saying.but apparently gave reasons why this had to be done.

Once again forcing the Kiev?US gov to use more militants and paid mercenaries to fight for them as they are leaving the Ukraine Army..refusing to fight their own people.

29 posted on 05/14/2014 11:51:37 AM PDT by caww
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To: FBD

Oh my gosh! What a cluster! and of course full press to show it’s importance....I see a lot of grey hair as well...cold war horses no doubt.


30 posted on 05/14/2014 11:54:03 AM PDT by caww
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To: FBD
Interesting. I wasn’t aware of Russian factories in Ukraine. That explains a lot, thanks.

They are Ukrainian factories. Russia happened to be their primary customer.

31 posted on 05/14/2014 11:55:34 AM PDT by meadsjn
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To: rbmillerjr

Those people will never surrender...they have to much skin in this now and understand the war as it is....

Only when Kiev gov. withdraws from shooting their own people will they consider the alternatives .

At the rate of defection now happening in the Ukraine Army they might not have to do anything but wait it out.


32 posted on 05/14/2014 11:57:53 AM PDT by caww
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To: caww

“A ‘Commander of Ukraine’ defected today”

He merely outed himself.

The jig is up. Russia is out. Elections are in 10 days. Ukraine will vote for one Ukraine and that government will be more pro West now.

The subversives are refusing to negotiate and vote in the elections, they know they will lose.


33 posted on 05/14/2014 11:58:09 AM PDT by rbmillerjr (Russians to the Left of me, Useful Idiots to the Right...)
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To: rbmillerjr

You know, I haven’t insulted you even ONCE on any thread about Ukraine. Yet here you come onto my thread and start with this “Putin lapdog propagandist crap”, and calling me stupid. I’m trying to figure out what’s going on, as a casual observer in the USA. From what I can see on these various Ukraine threads, there are a numberof name calling bullies trying to stifle honest discussion, and it appears that you’re (unfortunately) one of them.

Try using some civility, thanks.


34 posted on 05/14/2014 12:02:32 PM PDT by FBD
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To: FBD
Yes...and those factories are of the highest order as you can see...I don't think many understand the advances Russia has made in modernizing what they do and are about today....

Putin's brought back the country via oil , investments and selling weaponry and military equipment...both of which is always on world demand. This is why the US is fighting so against him now...also because of his ties with Europe....oil pipelines "hardwire" countries to be sure!

I think people are having difficulty realizing they are not dealing with a stupid man...he was an attorney...knows how laws work Internationaly and certainly has made it obvious he will use these to his advantage...and is doing just that.

35 posted on 05/14/2014 12:03:04 PM PDT by caww
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To: FBD
Yes...and those factories are of the highest order as you can see...I don't think many understand the advances Russia has made in modernizing what they do and are about today....

Putin's brought back the country via oil , investments and selling weaponry and military equipment...both of which is always on world demand. This is why the US is fighting so against him now...also because of his ties with Europe....oil pipelines "hardwire" countries to be sure!

I think people are having difficulty realizing they are not dealing with a stupid man...he was an attorney...knows how laws work Internationaly and certainly has made it obvious he will use these to his advantage...and is doing just that.

36 posted on 05/14/2014 12:03:04 PM PDT by caww
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To: meadsjn

Wrong...Russia has part ownership in many of these if not complete..he is a “Partner” not just a customer...lol.


37 posted on 05/14/2014 12:04:43 PM PDT by caww
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To: meadsjn

Wrong...Russia has part ownership in many of these if not complete..he is a “Partner” not just a customer...lol.


38 posted on 05/14/2014 12:04:44 PM PDT by caww
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To: rbmillerjr

The elections won’t matter to the direction E. Ukraine takes to protect their Industrial resources there, (their jobs)....not about ready to give them to Kiev under any circumstances any time soon.

You are correct that though they were going to vote in the election..they will not now..and the reason is they are going in another direction all will see soon enough.


39 posted on 05/14/2014 12:07:19 PM PDT by caww
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To: FBD; rbmillerjr

You have to learn to pick you fights with this one and a few others...they see anyone who doesn’t agree with their cold war mentality as favoring Russia...they simply cannot grasp the entire picture...so they resort to name calling and insults...like most liberals do when they cannot face the facts.


40 posted on 05/14/2014 12:09:35 PM PDT by caww
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To: FBD; rbmillerjr

You have to learn to pick you fights with this one and a few others...they see anyone who doesn’t agree with their cold war mentality as favoring Russia...they simply cannot grasp the entire picture...so they resort to name calling and insults...like most liberals do when they cannot face the facts.


41 posted on 05/14/2014 12:09:36 PM PDT by caww
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To: FBD

I’m sorry you seek my civility, and don’t find mine complete.

If posting a picture of unarmed pro Russians in a 50 square yard area, can be summarized by you as equaling, “there are not unarmed subversives in E Ukraine”...than you have a reasoning problem.

Either that or you are a pure propagandist.

If you can’t see that reasoning, then I feel sorry for you, but it is what it is.


42 posted on 05/14/2014 12:10:43 PM PDT by rbmillerjr (Russians to the Left of me, Useful Idiots to the Right...)
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To: caww

Watch it again with the captions and the caption translator turned on (underCC).

He says he is defecting to the Southeast, bringing much of his “Battalion” with him, “Cleared of Nazi’s”.

Have no idea if this is real, but I’ll see what more I can find...


43 posted on 05/14/2014 12:11:18 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
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To: rbmillerjr

“The jig is up. Russia is out.”

So far, every prediction you have made has been wrong.

You aren’t even trying to grasp the strategic situation, are you. Which begs the question, WHY ARE YOU HERE?


44 posted on 05/14/2014 12:14:06 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
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To: tcrlaf

Ok....I have to go to work....but will be back later...

I couldn’t confirm it either...but there are others also defecting more and more....

IMO I do think Kiev/US Gov will have no choice but to do things the way Eastern Ukraine wants to ...rumor there are other options being considered without having to deal with Kiev. Time will tell.


45 posted on 05/14/2014 12:15:34 PM PDT by caww
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To: tcrlaf

I know more about intelligence, tactical and strategic situations then you could even dream of.

Russia has used these subversives as pawns and they are abandoned now.

They don’t want to pay the economic consequences of an invasion.

So, the subversives have little options.

1) They can surrender and vote
2) Stay holed up and not vote
3) Ukraine will elect one Ukraine
4) E Ukraine will also elect for one Ukraine

The only option for them is civil war.


46 posted on 05/14/2014 12:21:06 PM PDT by rbmillerjr (Russians to the Left of me, Useful Idiots to the Right...)
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Comment #47 Removed by Moderator

To: rbmillerjr
...” Russia...They don’t want to pay the economic consequences of an invasion.”....

Wrong...Russia isn't going to take the bait...Putin has not once deviated from the fact he does not want war on his border.....and having his troops on his border is perfectly within his rights as a sovereign country. The Eu/US is egging him on by consistently battling for the Ukraine's lucrative areas that EU stands to gain from by absorbing them into their fray. Without the East..Kiev/US got nothing.

48 posted on 05/14/2014 12:31:25 PM PDT by caww
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To: caww

From the anti US, Russian propaganda perspective, I see your point.

From the objective perspective.

Every nation in Europe has NOT recognized the sham referendums by the subversives, including Russia lol.

Nearly every single European nation has castigated Russia for it’s illegal annexation and does not recognize this as legitimate.

Nearly every European nation sees Russia as the primary instigator here.

In the end, Russia has gained only what it already had...the naval yards.

But they have lost respect and gained fear, pushing Europe closer to the West, primarily out of fear of a rogue Russia.


49 posted on 05/14/2014 12:36:26 PM PDT by rbmillerjr (Russians to the Left of me, Useful Idiots to the Right...)
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To: rbmillerjr

“I know more about intelligence, tactical and strategic situations then you could even dream of”

LOL!
Sure ya do...
Sure ya do...

So how, with such a grand pronouncement, do you not understand what a serious diplomatic incident is??

Now, go back to playing Call of Duty, and let the adults chat, K?


50 posted on 05/14/2014 12:36:50 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
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