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Should America Open Its Borders? Reason Presents a Debate on Immigration
Reason ^ | Joshua Swain

Posted on 05/14/2014 9:29:21 PM PDT by ObamahatesPACoal

Does America need more or less immigration? Should we let the free market decide how many immigrant workers the economy can support? Or should a responsible government manage the flow of labor?

On Tuesday, April 22, Reason Foundation Managing Editor Tom Clougherty moderated a debate on immigration reform featuring Cato Immigration Policy Analyst Alex Nowrasteh, Professor of Economics at George Mason University Bryan Caplan, and Executive Director of the Center for Immigration Studies Mark Krikorian.

(Excerpt) Read more at reason.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: aliens; amnesty; borders; cato; open
Youtube video is here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUrJkweaw34
1 posted on 05/14/2014 9:29:22 PM PDT by ObamahatesPACoal
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To: ObamahatesPACoal

imagine 50m people pouring into the country (up from the 1-2m/yr now)

then realize they’ll work under the table... no taxes... while straining all our public services. fire, police, medical, correctional, roads, etc. this would result in a required expanse of those public sector services in order to meet the demand. this would mean tax revenues would have to increase... but the number of taxpayers has not.

we all just get hosed.

but don’t worry... they’d all be able to vote for those services by voting dem

seriously, how do we get a divorce from these gold diggers whores?


2 posted on 05/14/2014 9:39:38 PM PDT by sten (fighting tyranny never goes out of style)
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To: ObamahatesPACoal

It always gets to me, that we have millions of illegals in this country, and at the same time, have millions of able bodied people on public assistance.

Anecdotal evidence is that many people not born in this country, are working in fast food, retailing, construction, janitorial work, and farm work.

Of course I can’t say that all of these people are here illegally, but we know many illegals are here working. I never understand why we allegedly need to import people for lower skilled types of jobs, such as fast food and retail, when we have so many unemployed here, who could do these jobs.


3 posted on 05/14/2014 9:41:46 PM PDT by Dilbert San Diego
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To: ObamahatesPACoal

Oh yeah, we need another 75 million at least...

Just damn. How many foreign nationals do we need anyway?

Our people are out of work. There’s no pressure on wages to increase. We’ve got a large portion of our populace barely hanging on.

What part of no more more room in the inn, do these idiots not understand?


4 posted on 05/14/2014 9:45:00 PM PDT by DoughtyOne
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To: Dilbert San Diego

The people with the appropriate skill to perform fast food, janitorial and farm work are already employed in government.


5 posted on 05/14/2014 9:53:28 PM PDT by Sgt_Schultze (A half-truth is a complete lie)
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To: Sgt_Schultze

and, here I thought some of these unskilled people on public assistance, could be easily trained to do a lot of these jobs. Silly me..............


6 posted on 05/14/2014 9:58:07 PM PDT by Dilbert San Diego
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To: ObamahatesPACoal
Should we let the free market decide how many immigrant workers the economy can support?

As long as we attract illegals with freebies, the "free market" has very little to do with immigration outcome.

7 posted on 05/14/2014 10:00:51 PM PDT by umgud
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To: ObamahatesPACoal

Borders provide structure to a society at every level. Without borders, there is no rule of law, except as a rather primitive form of might makes right.

As an example, the organization holding this debate established a structure that included “borders” relating to time and place, a defined constitution regarding the purpose and the “borders” between participants and spectators, and a governing moderator. Without these structures - definitions, borders and boundaries, limits and laws - this would have merely been chaos.

Entirely “open” borders are no borders at all, and chaos ensues. And when chaos ensues, people will desperately ask for the imposition of orderliness and structure again. Those advocating for open borders are merely hoping to foment such chaos, so that they can be the ones to step into the vacuum and impose a new structure again, a structure of a tyrannical nature of their own choosing. Thus have the Marxists always operated. They’ll accept being voted into tyranny by the shifting demographics of immigration, or they’ll accept imposing tyranny after dismantling the orderly structure of society - either way they win.

“The issue [open borders] is never the real issue - the real issue is always the revolution. The cause [immigration reform] is never the real cause - the real cause is always the acquisition of power.”


8 posted on 05/14/2014 10:04:59 PM PDT by dagogo redux
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To: ObamahatesPACoal

Borders, language, culture.


9 posted on 05/14/2014 10:05:30 PM PDT by BenLurkin (This is not a statement of fact. It is either opinion or satire; or both.)
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To: ObamahatesPACoal
Here's another video everyone should see. The Arroyo
10 posted on 05/14/2014 10:06:13 PM PDT by Baynative (How much longer will the media be able to prop up this administration?)
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To: ObamahatesPACoal

It’s not the people it is the resources they consume.


11 posted on 05/14/2014 10:09:09 PM PDT by Mike Darancette (Do The Math)
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To: ObamahatesPACoal

Should a cell shut down its defense mechanisms and allow any strand of DNA to enter?

Liberals are a cancer.


12 posted on 05/14/2014 10:21:41 PM PDT by SpaceBar
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To: ObamahatesPACoal

And what are they now?!


13 posted on 05/14/2014 10:24:20 PM PDT by Beowulf9
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To: Dilbert San Diego
Dilbert..Dilbert..Dilbert...you just don't get it do you?/sarc

Just keep your nose to the grindstone and keep transferring your wealth to the soetoro so he can redistribute it to whom it really belongs.

14 posted on 05/14/2014 10:39:07 PM PDT by Eagles6 (Valley Forge Redux. If not now, when? If not here, where?)
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To: BenLurkin

And when we have to foot the bill for their benefits while they pay nothing into it? Not just no. Hell no.


15 posted on 05/14/2014 10:43:30 PM PDT by jsanders2001
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To: jsanders2001

You know if I really wanted to screw up a country I’d just open the borders and say hey you! Yeah you. You want free food, free housing, free medical care, be paid under the table tax free so you can save it and move back to your own country and retire like a millionaire? Come and get it. Then payback the white man by forcing him to pay for it all while I lived the high life and laughed my a$$ off...: )


16 posted on 05/14/2014 10:51:07 PM PDT by jsanders2001
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To: ObamahatesPACoal
A ridiculous premise pushed by libertarians. No country in the world has open borders. People are not units of labor. They bring their own values, world view, and culture. And then there are the security concerns that open borders bring.

There are literally billions who want to come to the US. The businesses that employ them don't have to pay the social and infrastructure costs.

17 posted on 05/14/2014 10:51:52 PM PDT by kabar
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To: Dilbert San Diego

We bring in 1.1 million LEGAL IMMIGRANTS A YEAR. This isn’t about illegal immigration.


18 posted on 05/14/2014 10:53:12 PM PDT by kabar
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To: ObamahatesPACoal

“Alexander “Alex” Nowrasteh is an analyst of immigration policy currently working at the Center for Global Liberty and Prosperity of the Cato Institute, a libertarian think tank located in Washington D.C. Nowrasteh is an advocate of freer migration to the United States. He previously worked as the immigration policy analyst at the Competitive Enterprise Institute, another libertarian think tank.”

Here is how the libertarian position looks when they write it down formally.

COMPLETE PLATFORM TEXT
INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS AND CIVIL ORDER

IMMIGRATION:
“”THE ISSUE: We welcome all refugees to our country and condemn the efforts of U.S. officials to create a new “Berlin Wall” which would keep them captive. We condemn the U.S. government’s policy of barring those refugees from our country and preventing Americans from assisting their passage to help them escape tyranny or improve their economic prospects.

THE PRINCIPLE: We hold that human rights should not be denied or abridged on the basis of nationality. Undocumented non-citizens should not be denied the fundamental freedom to labor and to move about unmolested. Furthermore, immigration must not be restricted for reasons of race, religion, political creed, age or sexual preference. We oppose government welfare and resettlement payments to non-citizens just as we oppose government welfare payments to all other persons.

SOLUTIONS: We condemn massive roundups of Hispanic Americans and others by the federal government in its hunt for individuals not possessing required government documents. We strongly oppose all measures that punish employers who hire undocumented workers. Such measures repress free enterprise, harass workers, and systematically discourage employers from hiring Hispanics.

TRANSITIONAL ACTION: We call for the elimination of all restrictions on immigration, the abolition of the Immigration and Naturalization Service and the Border Patrol, and a declaration of full amnesty for all people who have entered the country illegally.””


19 posted on 05/14/2014 10:54:06 PM PDT by ansel12 ((Ted Cruz and Mike Lee-both of whom sit on the Senate Judiciary Comm as Ginsberg's importance fades)
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To: ObamahatesPACoal

Importing poor people who support big government, while pushing more Americans out of employment and onto welfare is a recipe for a socialist majority. Libertarians for Socialism aren’t ideologues. They are mentally ill.


20 posted on 05/14/2014 10:55:33 PM PDT by rmlew ("Mosques are our barracks, minarets our bayonets, domes our helmets, the believers our soldiers.")
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To: ansel12

If you want to hear the libertarian’s, immigration expert speak, go to minute 23.


21 posted on 05/14/2014 10:56:38 PM PDT by ansel12 ((Ted Cruz and Mike Lee-both of whom sit on the Senate Judiciary Comm as Ginsberg's importance fades)
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To: Dilbert San Diego

I lived in Reno and one franchise owner owned 4 or 5 McDonalds around town. There was a rumor one day that ICE was going to raid a McDs and all of a sudden all of their staff bolted.


22 posted on 05/14/2014 10:58:31 PM PDT by USNBandit (sarcasm engaged at all times)
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To: umgud

‘you can have open borders or a welfare state, but not both’...Milton Friedman


23 posted on 05/15/2014 5:22:05 AM PDT by dogcaller
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To: ObamahatesPACoal

Who’s letting Americans in? Maybe theiropinion would be worth listening to.


24 posted on 05/15/2014 6:11:40 AM PDT by chesley
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To: sten

You overlook what may be the most important issue in the long term. Many immigrants, most now patriotic, productive citizens, spent years and resources to come here. They honored the law and set a wonderful example to their families, friends, and neighbors.

Blanket amnesty and other “immigration reform” measures slaps them in the face and tells the world that their respect for this country and our laws represents foolishness and that those who held our country and our laws in contempt did it the smart way.

The only credible motivations for “immigration reform”, in my opinion, are to create more Democrat voters and promote dependency on big government programs — free stuff!


25 posted on 05/15/2014 6:21:19 AM PDT by chuck07852 (Get real, please. Understand the real motives and the real consequences!)
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To: kabar

A ridiculous premise pushed by libertarians.


Looks to me like this is a debate among the libertarians, not a libertarian premise being pushed.

I understand that the true libertarian view is that when you have a libertarian society, you don’t need the borders. Until then, of course, you do.


26 posted on 05/15/2014 6:30:03 AM PDT by Freeping Since 2001
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To: ansel12

If you want to hear the libertarian’s, immigration expert speak, go to minute 23.


And consider that the other libertarian in the debate disagrees.


27 posted on 05/15/2014 6:45:08 AM PDT by Freeping Since 2001
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To: Freeping Since 2001
I understand that the true libertarian view is that when you have a libertarian society, you don’t need the borders. Until then, of course, you do.

Libertarian society? Do you mean globally? If we are the only country with open borders, how can that be beneficial to us as a nation? Or are we no longer a nation with borders and sovereignty?

From the 2012 Libertarian Party Platform

We support the removal of governmental impediments to free trade. Political freedom and escape from tyranny demand that individuals not be unreasonably constrained by government in the crossing of political boundaries. Economic freedom demands the unrestricted movement of human as well as financial capital across national borders. However, we support control over the entry into our country of foreign nationals who pose a credible threat to security, health or property.

28 posted on 05/15/2014 7:18:13 AM PDT by kabar
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To: Dilbert San Diego

Of course I can’t say that all of these people are here illegally, but we know many illegals are here working.


And many of those legally working were at one time illegal, or are descended from those will illegal origins, as in the future those who are legalized often flow from today’s illegals.


29 posted on 05/15/2014 8:38:39 AM PDT by Freeping Since 2001
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To: Freeping Since 2001

Open borders is the libertarian philosophy, and it has always been their position.

See post 19.


30 posted on 05/15/2014 11:00:37 AM PDT by ansel12 ((Ted Cruz and Mike Lee-both of whom sit on the Senate Judiciary Comm as Ginsberg's importance fades)
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To: ansel12

Open borders is the libertarian philosophy, and it has always been their position.


You must be referring to the Libertarian Party(r), as opposed to the positions of most actual libertarians.


31 posted on 05/15/2014 11:15:36 AM PDT by Freeping Since 2001
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To: Freeping Since 2001

There are pure libertarians and the basic libertarian philosophy as written into real world politics with the party they formed, and then there are libertarians who are not pure, and have varying degrees of disagreements with libertarianism.

Some oppose Capitalism and promote a socialist view (like Noam Chomsky), some are not for totally open borders, a few are even pro-life, or believe in strong national defense, a few even oppose things like gays in the military and gay marriage, but I’m not really interested in learning each and every individual’s personal level of purity when discussing libertarianism and how it is at war with conservatism.

I am interested in where libertarianism reveals it’s anti-Americanism, anti-God, anti-conservative goals and foundational beliefs.


32 posted on 05/15/2014 11:55:21 AM PDT by ansel12 ((Ted Cruz and Mike Lee-both of whom sit on the Senate Judiciary Comm as Ginsberg's importance fades)
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To: ansel12

“...libertarianism and how it is at war with conservatism.”


I believe that liberty and libertarianism are the heart and soul of conservatism, and of the Republican party at its best.


33 posted on 05/15/2014 12:17:46 PM PDT by Freeping Since 2001
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To: Freeping Since 2001

What kind of meaningless response was that?

Libertarinanism is at war with conservatism.

It is why they are two different “isms”, and why you are promoting one to defeat the other.


34 posted on 05/15/2014 12:37:51 PM PDT by ansel12 ((Ted Cruz and Mike Lee-both of whom sit on the Senate Judiciary Comm as Ginsberg's importance fades)
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To: ObamahatesPACoal

35 posted on 05/15/2014 3:03:02 PM PDT by ObamahatesPACoal
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To: ObamahatesPACoal

The adult in the room is the one againt open borders.


36 posted on 05/15/2014 3:03:30 PM PDT by ObamahatesPACoal
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