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Ukrainian MPs call for immediate troop withdrawal from country’s East
RT ^ | 5-20-2014 | RT

Posted on 05/20/2014 12:54:51 PM PDT by tcrlaf

Ukrainian troops deployed in the country’s east should immediately return to their bases, the country’s parliament said in a memorandum. The freshly-adopted document also urges constitutional reforms based on the decentralization of Kiev’s power.

With 226 votes required to pass the law, the Ukrainian parliament finally adopted the so-called ‘Memorandum of Peace and Consent’, 252 MPs voting in favor. In particular, the document calls "to restore law, order and public safety in the state by stopping bloodshed and bringing to justice those responsible for the killings of civilians during mass protests; to stop the anti-terrorist operation in Ukraine’s southeast and return the soldiers involved in anti-terrorist operations to their places of permanent deployment.”

Kiev launched a military crackdown in the country’s south-east regions in April in response to mass protests against the coup-appointed government calling for the federalization of the region.

(Excerpt) Read more at rt.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: civilwar; parliment; ukraine
Looks like a last gasp to hold the country together, by giving the east everything they have been demanding, and a seat at the table.

This is significant... The Army has been proven unreliable, at best, in dealing with the rebels, with ever-increasing reports of desertions, defections, and refusals to follow orders from Kiev. The Right Sector-controlled National Guard is fast becoming a Warlord Militia, and is very undisciplined, resulting in civilian deaths.

Kiev isn't going to be able to contain the East through violence, that is pretty clear now.

Take note that Svoboda abstained from voting on this. They want Russians in Ukraine gone, or dead, it seems.

With Poroshenko looking more and more likely to be the winner of the Prez election, the real question becomes will Right Sector/Svoboda, and Kolomoisky give up power without bloodshed?

1 posted on 05/20/2014 12:54:51 PM PDT by tcrlaf
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To: tcrlaf

Any word on whether George Soros drafted the document? Did Russia Today tweet it?


2 posted on 05/20/2014 12:58:34 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: tcrlaf

Did he hashtag it? Don’t work unless you hashtag it. And give a really stern look.


3 posted on 05/20/2014 12:59:44 PM PDT by rjsimmon (The Tree of Liberty Thirsts)
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To: 1rudeboy

You do know that George Soros is the chief financier of the Kiev junta, right? That it’s Obama, Soros and the EU working together?


4 posted on 05/20/2014 1:05:49 PM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus

Please don’t feed the troll...


5 posted on 05/20/2014 1:07:18 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
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To: tcrlaf

Just a troll who doesn’t appreciate Kremlin spin. On FR, of all places.


6 posted on 05/20/2014 1:08:13 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: tcrlaf
". . . and bringing to justice those responsible for the killings of civilians during mass protests; . . ."

There's the sticking point.

If there's any chance there will be a real investigation of and punishment for killings of civilians the Nazi boyz in Ukraine will be doing more than demonstrating and making speeches.

7 posted on 05/20/2014 1:09:43 PM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: Rashputin

Russia won’t extradite the culprit, so it’s a non-issue.


8 posted on 05/20/2014 1:12:55 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: tcrlaf

Actually, I wonder if this doesn’t mean the Kiev is letting the East go.


9 posted on 05/20/2014 1:35:19 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: 1rudeboy

“Russia won’t extradite the culprit, so it’s a non-issue.”

One suspect in the Maidan shootings is already conveniently dead.

Leader of far-right Ukrainian group which played major role in overthrowing former president is handcuffed and ‘executed’ by police in ‘special forces operation’
Oleksander Muzychko, also known as Sashko Bily, was killed by officers of the ‘Sokol’ special unit, according to the Interior Ministry

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2588952/Leader-far-right-Ukrainian-group-shot-dead-police-shoot-special-forces-operation.html#ixzz32I6eUEmg


10 posted on 05/20/2014 1:48:10 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
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To: tcrlaf

Yeah, that’s the guy who gave the order to shoot the protestors. /s


11 posted on 05/20/2014 1:50:05 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: 1rudeboy

Maybe we should ask him about it??

OH WAIT,
WE CAN’T
HE WAS CONVENIENTLY KILLED....

..just as accusations that he directed the shootings were gaining steam.

Better than that, he supposedly shot HIMSELF... Twice...


12 posted on 05/20/2014 1:54:59 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
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To: tcrlaf

Maybe Soros pulled the trigger?


13 posted on 05/20/2014 4:17:04 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: dangus
You do know that George Soros is the chief financier of the Kiev junta, right? That it’s Obama, Soros and the EU working together?

Ignoring the racist Russian buzzword "Junta," can you please provide all those financial statements detailing how much money Soros has transferred to the interim government in Kyiv?

14 posted on 05/20/2014 6:01:47 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: redgolum

The source is Russia Today, a Kremlin run news outfit. I’d be very careful in taking their characterizations of anything seriously. There are also a handful of Paulistas and Putinists who think Putin is a Christian Monarch and defender of all truth and decency. I recommend you check the posting history of folks like this and note their tactics.


15 posted on 05/20/2014 6:06:03 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: tcrlaf
..just as accusations that he directed the shootings were gaining steam.

If you read Russia Today. They have documents from the Russian GRU recommending the use of violence. The Russian-trained SBU was photographed gearing up with sniper rifles, frag grenades, and other heavy weapons, and leaving their base towards the Maidan protests nearby. The shootings began soon after that, and when they were photographed returning, the shootings had ceased. Yanukovych had also already been using violence even before that, having protestors abducted and beaten by the Berkut, hence the reason one of the first things the Interim government did was ban them.

16 posted on 05/20/2014 6:09:04 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: tcrlaf; All
The Right Sector-controlled National Guard is fast becoming a Warlord Militia, and is very undisciplined, resulting in civilian deaths.

Can you please provide your evidence of Right Sector controlling the Ukrainian military?

Further, while there were SOME deaths of civilians (who happen to stand around people armed with pistols and molotov cocktails), these are not ordered by the state, and human rights organizations have noted that the number of abductions, beatings, tortures, robberies, and murders, by the Russian backed separatists (as a matter of policy!) far eclipse them:

"The UN has warned of an "alarming deterioration" in human rights in eastern Ukraine, where separatists are fighting security forces.

It also found "serious problems" of harassment and persecution of ethnic Tatars in Crimea, the mainly ethnic Russian region Moscow annexed in March. [...]

The UN's conclusions are contained in a 37-page report, its second monthly assessment of the situation.

UN human rights chief Navi Pillay said in Geneva: "Those with influence on the armed groups responsible for much of the violence in eastern Ukraine [must] do their utmost to rein in these men who seem bent on tearing the country apart."

The UN's report details growing lawlessness in eastern and southern Ukraine:

Peaceful demonstrations, primarily by supporters of Ukraine's unity, deteriorate into violence Protesters are attacked and beaten Local police do nothing to prevent the violence and sometimes openly co-operate with the attackers UN monitors have also documented cases of targeted killings, torture and abduction, primarily carried out by anti-government forces in eastern Ukraine.

The report highlights threats to journalists and international observers, and abductions or attacks on some.

In its response, Russia's foreign ministry said the report lacked any semblance of objectivity, and accused its authors of following "political orders" to whitewash Ukraine's new, pro-Western leaders."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27438422

In Crimea the wave of terror has only just begun. Crimean Tatars are already being threatened and abused. A young boy a few weeks ago was beaten to death by two Russian "police officers," because he couldn't speak Russian.

Those who spread lies about a "Nazi government" in Kyiv are aiding and abetting the very real murdering going on by Moscow, a government that still actively supports and defends communist countries, movements and terrorist organizations across the world.

17 posted on 05/20/2014 6:19:17 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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Comment #18 Removed by Moderator

To: dangus; All
LOL! “Junta” is a Spanish word! It’s a reference to an unelected administration, so it’s absolutely apt.

The Russians, lately inspired by Putin's new mystical nationalism, use it to refer to the Ukrainians as a group of people unworthy to have their own state. The Interim government, by the way, is the Ukrainian Rada elected in 2012. I've corrected you guys on this many times, but you continue to repeat the lie.

Your link from CNN detail nothing about Soros funding "protests." The rest of your links are fringe websites who are sourced by... Russian media, and by Alex Jones, who himself parrots information he gets from Russian media. Do you have any actual evidence that can actually be placed, right here on this forum, that does not come from the musty confines of organizations who have articles on their website arguing that HIV is not sexually transmitted, or interviews people who claim that the Vatican is controlled by an alien species that controls the banks and is hoarding all our gold? (I'm referring to Russia Today on that one... Alex Jones is slightly more respectable!)

You’ll notice it’s very-well sourced,

Soros isn't even mentioned in your "very-well sourced" Wikipedia article. I'll also add something to inspire in you the final bit of cognitive dissonance:

The radical "right" in Ukraine, Svoboda and Right Sector, which you conspiracy theorists claim control the Ukrainian government... are also Anti-EU.

If you want us to believe that Nazis control the Ukrainian government, you'll have to give up on the Soros angle.

19 posted on 05/20/2014 6:52:47 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: tcrlaf
The joke is, the Russian media doesn't mention the condition that parliament sets for the Anti-Terrorist Operation in Donbas to stop. The soldiers are to return to their barracks IF the Russian terrorists release their hostages, clear the administrative buildings, and surrender their weapons.

RFERL (Radio free Europe/Liberty) today had an article about how Russian media just butchered this in their reporting, quite pathetic. The article is in Russian with direct quotes from the memorandum. (you can google translate to verify for yourself)

Whatever Russian media says, you're better off assuming the opposite, because that little "if" that was omitted gives the story a very different meaning.

20 posted on 05/20/2014 7:02:45 PM PDT by Ivan Mazepa
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

And you seem to think the rebels in Kiev are as pure as the driven snow.

There are no good guys here.


21 posted on 05/20/2014 7:04:11 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: dangus

I understand Soros was behind every attempt to sow distrust between the two brotherly nations, Ukraine and Russia. I’ve read Shevchenko and Hetman Mazepa were financed by him as well.


22 posted on 05/20/2014 7:11:52 PM PDT by Ivan Mazepa
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To: redgolum
And you seem to think the rebels in Kiev are as pure as the driven snow. There are no good guys here.

And what "impurities" do you wish to share with us? Care to be specific? It's easy to say "nobody is perfect," but if you want us to believe that the Ukrainians are, perhaps, mass murdering Russians - even though the Maidan itself was populated by... guess what... Russians, Afghanies, Tatars, Poles, Jews, and the like- you'll have to do better than throwing at us these bland assertions.

Conservatives are not moral relativists. Unless you support the Kremlin, which IS still supporting communist movements, countries, terrorist organizations ALL across the world, along with countries like IRAN and SYRIA (this is not a conspiracy theory, unlike what what RT offers), then you have no business in sitting on the fence while the Kremlin lies and murders its way to building a new Soviet Union.

The Russkies and the Chicoms are our mortal enemies, and unless we recognize that and begin to take steps to psychologically and materially resist them, we will one day be their victims, just as Ukraine is Russia's victim today. Then these goobers on this forum, who happily quote Russian Media, will perhaps sing a different tune as the average American is demonized so that nobody complains when WE are murdered.

23 posted on 05/20/2014 7:12:50 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Ivan Mazepa

Just about everyone in America has natural mistrust of Putin for reasons that have little to do with Putin.

The atheists hate him because he is an avuncular Christian.

The Protestants hate him because he favors the Orthodox church over know-nothing American missionaries who think that all Orthodox are Soviets, even though the Soviets kills 85,000 out of 86,000 Orthodox priests. (Russia doesn’t exempt attacks on religion from laws against slander, like the US and Europe do in practice.)

The Catholics want their Catholic churches back that the Soviets took from them to give to lackeys.

The neo-cons hate him because hating Russians is all they know how to do.

The liberals hate him because he doesn’t support anal sex as a holy lifestyle and doesn’t buy into the leftwing European Union.

He gets hated because he’s blamed for the existence of the oligarchs; then when breaks up the oligarchies, he’s accused of anti-democratically routing out potential rivals.


24 posted on 05/20/2014 7:23:14 PM PDT by dangus
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To: Ivan Mazepa; tcrlaf
The joke is, the Russian media doesn't mention the condition that parliament sets for the Anti-Terrorist Operation in Donbas to stop. The soldiers are to return to their barracks IF the Russian terrorists release their hostages, clear the administrative buildings, and surrender their weapons.

RFERL (Radio free Europe/Liberty) today had an article about how Russian media just butchered this in their reporting, quite pathetic. The article is in Russian with direct quotes from the memorandum. (you can google translate to verify for yourself)

Whatever Russian media says, you're better off assuming the opposite, because that little "if" that was omitted gives the story a very different meaning.

So you mean tcrlaf was again taken in due to his inability to critically evaluate Russian media? Say it ain't so!

25 posted on 05/20/2014 7:24:21 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Ivan Mazepa

“The soldiers are to return to their barracks IF”

It is still a significant move...
And a likely last gasp at keeping the country together.


26 posted on 05/20/2014 7:29:03 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
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To: dangus
The atheists hate him because he is an avuncular Christian.

Putin the divorcee who justified his divorce as valid because it wasn't conducted in a church? Putin the divorcee who has people beaten and murdered in Russia for opposing his regime? People who claim that Putin is some kind of a Christian are uncritical clowns with their heads up their butts.

The Protestants hate him because he favors the Orthodox church over know-nothing American missionaries who think that all Orthodox are Soviets,

Want to know who else thinks the Russian Orthodox is run by Soviets? KGB documents and former Soviets noting that the patriarch of the ROC was a "former" KGB agent, and that all the people aiming for the position back in 2009 were also known KGB agents.

We also dislike them since the Kremlin uses the ROC, as it has for a very long time, as another arm of the government. They also prefer the ROC over all other denominations, using intimidation and other nefarious tactics to drive out non-ROC churches.

Are you Russian Orthodox by any chance?

The Catholics want their Catholic churches back that the Soviets took from them to give to lackeys.

As a matter of fact that's still going on!

The liberals hate him because he doesn’t support anal sex as a holy lifestyle and doesn’t buy into the leftwing European Union.

Yes, righteous Russia! Stacked full with theosophists and admirers of folkish religions in top places in academia, the military, and politics! Righteous Russia, where women are routinely kidnapped and sold into sex slavery, and where the porn industry operates out in the open! Righteous Russia, who dislike trannies winning music awards but were represented in the first place at that same competition by a psuedolesbian underage duet!

He gets hated because he’s blamed for the existence of the oligarchs

Most of them are his friends, and Putin has made millions from them!

27 posted on 05/20/2014 7:38:10 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

>> Putin the divorcee who justified his divorce as valid because it wasn’t conducted in a church? <<

Look up the meaning of the word, “avuncular.” It doesn’t mean what you think it means. And by the way, ROC accepts divorce.

>> Putin the divorcee who has people beaten and murdered in Russia for opposing his regime? <<

Yeah, right.

>> Are you Russian Orthodox by any chance? <<

No, Catholic actually.

>> Righteous Russia, where women are routinely kidnapped and sold into sex slavery, and where the porn industry operates out in the open! <<

Lured by promises of jobs to the West, kidnapped and sold to American pornographers. Look, Russia has plenty of sin, — Putin sure as Hell ain’t the second coming of Christ — but for an American to criticize the porn culture of another nation is just too hypocritical to fathom.


28 posted on 05/20/2014 7:49:25 PM PDT by dangus
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To: tcrlaf
It is still a significant move... And a likely last gasp at keeping the country together.

Shows how big of a know nothing you are. This is the same think they were saying from day one by the Ukrainian authorities.

From April's Geneva agreement:

"Under the Geneva agreement, illegal armed groups are meant to end the occupations of government buildings and disarm. In return, protesters who have left public buildings and surrendered weapons will be offered an amnesty and the central government in Kiev will begin a process of constitutional reforms aimed at devolving powers to the regions."

http://worldpoliticsjournal.com/2014/04/geneva-agreement-aimed-defusing-crisis-ukraine-unravels/

The Maidan was populated by ethnic Russians from all parts of Ukraine, and this was one of the original demands of that movement to begin with.

29 posted on 05/20/2014 7:52:46 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: dangus
Look up the meaning of the word, “avuncular.” It doesn’t mean what you think it means. And by the way, ROC accepts divorce.

Really? I didn't know that. Catholics and Protestants don't, probably because the Bible doesn't either, unless you want us to believe his wife was a fornicator? (Though rumor was and still is that HE was the one fornicating around!)

Mat_5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Yeah, right.

Yeah right? So do they just beat and murder themselves?

"Russia's political murders have to stop

Thursday, October 29, 2009

MURDERS OF human rights activists in Russia have been happening with such frequency that some will be tempted to shrug at the brutal slaying on Sunday of Maksharip Aushev, who campaigned against abuses by the security forces in the Caucasian republic of Ingushetia. Mr. Maksharip was driving on a major highway, in broad daylight, when a car pulled up beside him and delivered a fusillade of bullets. His funeral came two months after that of Zarema Sadulayeva, the head of a children's charity in neighboring Chechnya, and her husband, who were shot and stuffed in a car trunk. Those murders, in turn, followed the July 15 killing of Natalya Estemirova, Chechnya's most prominent human rights activist.

No one has been arrested, much less held responsible, in any of these cases. No one has been charged for the murder last Jan. 19 of human rights lawyer Stanislav Markelov and journalist Anastasia Baburova, who were gunned down on a busy street just blocks from the Kremlin. The murderers of journalist Anna Politkovskaya, who was assassinated outside her Moscow apartment three years ago this month, remain at large. These courageous men and women had in common their effort to hold Russian security forces accountable for the extrajudicial killings, torture and rape of innocent civilians in Chechnya, Ingushetia and other Caucasus republics.

Russia leader Vladimir Putin has been shrugging at this gangsterism all along. He disparaged Ms. Politkovskaya, one of the country's most renowned journalists, shortly after her death, and he's had nothing to say about the recent killings."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/28/AR2009102804143.html

No, Catholic actually.

So you're a Catholic aiding and abetting a religious church run by communists that is anti-Catholic? Interesting!

"Churches Under Fire in Russian Takeover of Crimea

Tuesday, March 25th, 2014

The hostile takeover of the Ukrainian Crimea by Russia is having religious repercussions. Catholic leaders, long repressed under the Soviet Union, have been ordered by pro-Russian forces to abandon their congregations in Crimea and flee to mainland Ukraine. The Ukrainian Greek Catholic church has refused, saying their clergy will remain with the sheep. At least three priests have been detained and released by Russian forces. ICC will continue to follow the situation as it develops. [...]

Russia’s Catholics and Protestants Labeled “Extremists”?

Monday, December 2nd, 2013

The labeling of Christians and Catholics as "extremists" has made its way to Russia.

http://www.persecution.org/category/countries/asia/russia/

Lured by promises of jobs to the West, kidnapped and sold to American pornographers. Look, Russia has plenty of sin, — Putin sure as Hell ain’t the second coming of Christ — but for an American to criticize the porn culture of another nation is just too hypocritical to fathom.

Oh, don't you dare try to spin this on me after sticking up for Putin, Moscow, and the ROC!

30 posted on 05/20/2014 8:09:14 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

I’m so glad you’re so worried about Catholic priests! Catholic New Agency (CNA) was unfamiliar enough with Crimea that they reported what they were told, without verifying. Turns out that the detained priest they interviewed told them that Stepan Bandera was an anti-Nazi, in explaining why he had a shrine set up to Bandera. THe problem was that Banders was a Nazi wanna-be who slaughtered 100s of 1000s of Catholic Poles in the Ukraine... just to ingratiate himself with Hitler.

So here’s what really happened ACCORDING TO THE PRIEST HIMSELF with my thoughts in parens:

Priest goes to deliver bullet-proof jackets and requisitions to a Ukrainian military depot. (Why does a priest have bullet-proof jackets?) The pro-Russian police go to question him about it, and find a shrine to Bandera, (a Nazi, genocidal terrorist who exterminated hundreds of thousands of Catholics). They take him in for more questioning, and release him a few hours later, rattled but unharmed.


31 posted on 05/21/2014 4:52:39 AM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus; All
I’m so glad you’re so worried about Catholic priests! Catholic New Agency (CNA) was unfamiliar enough with Crimea that they reported what they were told, without verifying. Turns out that the detained priest they interviewed

Notice the essential dishonesty of this response (well, ALL your responses are essentially dishonest). I cite articles talking about CATHOLICS and Protestants in the plural number, and you reduce it down to a single Priest you claim is a Nazi, and therefore, I suppose, deserves kidnapping. Tell me, thou enemy of Christendom, are all Non-ROC churches Nazi organizations?

Why Russia Persecutes Non-Orthodox Churches

ICC Note:

This article provides an excellent introduction into the difficult climate for non-orthodox Christians living in the former Soviet Union. The recent forced demolition of a Protestant church in Moscow and subsequent fining of the pastor for having the courage to meet in the churches rubble record demonstrate a determination by the Russian government to control and suppress non-orthodox Christians.

10/4/2012 Russia (Christians in Crisis)- Russian police demolished Holy Trinity Pentecostal Church in Moscow last month. The members of the church now gather near the ruins for worship, bearing testimony to the continued persecution of "non-traditional," or disfavored, religious groups after President Vladimir Putin assumed office about five months ago.

It is estimated that 90 percent of ethnic Russians - and around 70 percent of all Russian citizens - identify themselves as Orthodox. Since the collapse of the USSR in 1991, Russians have closely associated Orthodoxy with national identity, replacing socialism with Orthodoxy. However, people's association with the Russian Orthodox Church is apparently more symbolic than representative of their commitment to the substance of the faith. This is perhaps why the church attendance is extremely low.

Russia's 1993 Constitution states that all religious associations are equal before the law. However, the preamble of the Law on Freedom of Conscience and Religious Associations, enacted in 1997 under President Boris N. Yeltsin to define the state's relationship with religion, says respect should be accorded firstly to Orthodoxy, and secondly to Islam, Judaism, Buddhism and [non-Orthodox] Christianity.

Non-Orthodox Christian groups in Russia are seen as rooted in the United States in particular and the West in general, and competing with the Orthodox Church for membership. And both the government - for which a key priority is to protect "Holy Russia" from "foreign devils" - and the Orthodox Church, which is allegedly closely associated with the government, are anti-West.

The Russian government also seeks to restrict the functioning of independent organizations that are not allied with it or show any sign of dissent.

The relationship between the Kremlin (the official residence of the President) and the Orthodox Church is partly based on their common nationalistic ideology which seeks to restore Russia’s might after the Soviet Union's fall. The 1977 law on religious associations, commonly known as the religion law, was enacted at a time when missionaries from Protestant faiths in the West began working in Russia after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

The Russian Orthodox Church was born in 988 AD with Prince Vladimir being baptized in the River Dnieper with all the inhabitants of Kiev. Since the conflict between the Patriarch of the East and the Pope of the West was at peak at the time, the Russian Church and people inherited the Eastern Church's antagonism to Rome and the West and shared its isolation from the Renaissance, the Reformation and the rise of modern concepts of social Christianity, explains a 1961 article by Paul B. Anderson in the Foreign Affairs magazine."

http://www.persecution.org/2012/10/05/why-russia-persecutes-non-orthodox-christians/

32 posted on 05/21/2014 9:25:10 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

>> Notice the essential dishonesty of this response (well, ALL your responses are essentially dishonest). I cite articles talking about CATHOLICS and Protestants in the plural number, and you reduce it down to a single Priest you claim is a Nazi, and therefore, I suppose, deserves kidnapping. Tell me, thou enemy of Christendom, are all Non-ROC churches Nazi organizations? <<

I looked up the sole example in the primary news source that reported the issue. Yes, it’s an anecdote, but no, it’s not a cherry-picked anecdote. And since I *AM* a Catholic, obviously I don’t think that Catholic churches are typically Nazi... but this is the ONE priest that they actually interviewed. I can’t address any of the situations involving the other four Catholic priests who were detained because there is absolutely no other information about them, other than that they were quickly released.

>> However, people’s association with the Russian Orthodox Church is apparently more symbolic than representative of their commitment to the substance of the faith. This is perhaps why the church attendance is extremely low. <<

Church attendance is low in the ROC because it is not mandatory. The requirement for weekly Church attendance is a wise, but modern, Western requirement. Like divorce, I don’t approve, but I can’t condemn people as hypocrites when they don’t live up to standards that they don’t assert; all I can do is say “well, that’s (one reason) why I’m Catholic, not Orthodox.”

As a Catholic, I’m well experienced with Protestants presuming that any Catholic or Orthodox isn’t a Christian at all, and is presumptively guilty of idolatry, worshiping the anti-Christ, etc. These idiots frequently make outrageous, false assertions about the beliefs of others, and yes, Russia does protect the ROC — and other churches — from slander. Also, I’ve also encountered many idiots on FR presuming that communism is a product of the ROC, when the communists murdered 85,000 ROC priests, leaving only 1,000 alive. With these attitudes, I’m not in the slightest surprised that Russia doesn’t welcome them with open arms.

I want to make it clear that I do not approve of the treatment of the Holy Trinity Pentecostalist congregation, and that I recognize that ROC congregations would not be treated the same, but your sources do not include the fact that Moscow had been pressing the Church for seven years for leaving the building in an incomplete stage of construction for seventeen years, and they had been warned repeatedly not to occupy the premises, and that the illegal structure could be destroyed. That greying of the issue doesn’t make it right, but how does the incident compare with ministers being arrested in Canada and across Europe for objecting to gay marriage (for instance)? Where the howls of protest when the government of Canada seized all the Catholic schools in Quebec, and subjugated them to state control? Have any of the European nations which seized Catholic monasteries or church lands returned them? (No... and that’s just about every government in Europe went through their anti-clerical phase at one time or another.) Or how about the IRS constantly threatening churches which speak out against abortion, while black churches hold campaign rallies for Obama?

Not that two wrongs make a right, but the vitriol and hatred outpoured on Russia just seems a little out of scale to the wrongs committed in Russia... like your ridiculous example decrying Russia because Russian women are lured into slavery and pornography... by Americans in America for Americans.


33 posted on 05/21/2014 12:25:02 PM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus
Church attendance is low in the ROC because it is not mandatory. The requirement for weekly Church attendance is a wise, but modern, Western requirement.

This is stupid for a number of reasons, and I am quite sure that you are just making things up as you go along. Christians go to church frequently because they are Christians. If attendance is low, but self-proclamations are high, all you have is a culture of Orthodoxy, not actual Orthodoxy, as evidenced from the dark condition of Moscow itself, and the disease and murder that flows straight out of the Kremlin itself. I bolded the section since Russians tell me themselves a similar tale, most people in Russia declare themselves "Orthodox," even while they are atheists. It is a cultural thing, and these claims of Russia being a Christian country are merely the inventions of goobers who wink and nod at murder, fornication and robbery. Hence Alexandr Dugin, one of the freaks Putin puts on Russian state controlled media, notes that even Communists in Russia reflexively identify as Orthodox Monarchists:

“In the first stages of Zyuganov’s creation of the Communist Party of the Russian Federation (not without some participation on my part, as well as Prokhanov…), efforts were made to interpret and conceptually appraise the presence of the national component in the Soviet worldview (National Bolshevism), but this initiative was abandoned by the leadership of the [Communist Party], which had occupied itself with some other matters…. However, on the level of rhetoric and first reactions, Russian Communists in all senses present themselves as confirmed national conservatives – sometimes even as ‘Orthodox Monarchists.’” - Alexander Dugin, The Fourth Political Theory

As a Catholic, I’m well experienced with Protestants presuming that any Catholic or Orthodox isn’t a Christian at all, and is presumptively guilty of idolatry,

Another red herring from a dishonest infidel who, just a moment before, even apologized for divorce, and says nothing of the persecution by our contemporary reds of Catholic and Protestant churches.

You should go join your communist friends and become a Russian Orthodox, and then you too can avoid going to church and just sit around all day celebrating the murdering and raping of your new armed forces.

34 posted on 05/21/2014 1:58:56 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

“Dishonest infidel”? LOL! That explains the fixation on Chechnya! You’re one of those Mooselimbs! Now that you’ve gone completely silly, I think I’m done here. Say Hi to George Soros for me!


35 posted on 05/21/2014 2:20:43 PM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus
“Dishonest infidel”? LOL! That explains the fixation on Chechnya! You’re one of those Mooselimbs!

FYI, your butt-boy Putin aids and abets the nuclear development of Iran, and a great many other of our enemies across the world besides. You are an anti-American and an apologist for Putin, and all true red blooded Americans must learn to shun the Liberaltarians and Putinists of the world. They are useful idiots even more dangerous than the leftists, since they masquerade as right-wingers.

36 posted on 05/21/2014 2:28:21 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Are you even American? You use a lot of peculiar phrases that sound like you work for one of those propaganda bases.


37 posted on 05/21/2014 2:36:19 PM PDT by dangus
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