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Real solution to fed land mismanagement: fight elitist Progressivism
Oregon Catalyst ^ | May 25, 2014 | Jack Swift

Posted on 05/25/2014 3:22:47 PM PDT by Twotone

In the great dispute over utilization of our Federal lands in the West, the attempt is frequently made to end run the arguments over how best to manage those lands by asserting the Federal government has no capacity to own the lands. The argument goes that since the Constitution is a delegation of enumerated powers, if there is no provision therein for ownership of land, the Federal government must lack standing to be a legitimate owner. This is not an idle question. It is said to have given Jefferson great pause prior to deciding to make the Louisiana Purchase.

However, there is excellent authority in the Constitution for Federal ownership of property including territory, which is simply a peculiar form of property.

(Excerpt) Read more at oregoncatalyst.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: agenda21; federalland; landgrab; progressivism; statesrights
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Very interesting, but it's still time for the federal gov't to release all lands back to the western states. That or sell them off to clear the debt.
1 posted on 05/25/2014 3:22:47 PM PDT by Twotone
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To: Twotone
The Louisiana Purchase can't be a part of this discussion. It is an entirely different subject matter altogether.
2 posted on 05/25/2014 3:33:16 PM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist (100% pure organic, free-range conservative)
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist

This is a fairly detailed analysis of all types of acquisition by the feds, briefly touching on the Louisiana Purchase.

Personally, I think forcing the federal gov’t to sell off or release western lands will be the most effective method to going back to limited gov’t. All the agencies controlling the land could go bye-bye & each state would have to adopt their own policies for use & protection of their resources.


3 posted on 05/25/2014 3:40:50 PM PDT by Twotone (Marte Et Clypeo)
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To: Twotone

Analyzing the applicable definition of FedGov pre- and post- 14th Amendment is a non-trivial issue.


4 posted on 05/25/2014 3:46:14 PM PDT by Talisker (One who commands, must obey.)
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To: Twotone

I see the actual return of lands as being a process involving several reductions in government power.

The first is to nip in the bud federal authority over non-navigable waters and the regulation of carbon dioxide. Both of these are abominations. Make any requirement of environmental impact statements solely within the purview of the states.

Next is to modify the endangered species act so that the ability to enforce the act no longer lies with the federal government, but actions can only be made by state governments at the *recommendation* of the federal government. When and if the state government balances the recommendations against other uses of that land and the private property within that land.

Then would be the restoration of private lands to their owners or inheritors, as well as right of way access and water rights.

And then, finally, would be the great return of lands to the states. Doing it this way would hopefully remove obstacles and the ability of arrogant federal judges to interfere with or halt the process.


5 posted on 05/25/2014 3:51:56 PM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy ("Don't compare me to the almighty, compare me to the alternative." -Obama, 09-24-11)
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Comment #6 Removed by Moderator

To: Twotone; All
"... the attempt is frequently [emphasis added] made to end run the arguments over how best to manage those lands by asserting the Federal government has no capacity to own the lands."

Frequently? Who's been saying this?

7 posted on 05/25/2014 4:04:37 PM PDT by Amendment10
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To: Twotone
fight elitist Progressivism

With hempen rope and lamp posts.

8 posted on 05/25/2014 4:41:36 PM PDT by TigersEye ("No man left behind" is more than an Army Ranger credo it's the character of America.)
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To: Twotone

Two problems with your idea....

1) Most western states do not want all the Federal land. They are perfectly happy allowing the Federal government to pay the costs of maintaining, patrolling and improving such lands. Some do want ownership of certain choice parcels but that is a very small percentage of the available land. You have to remember that much if not most of these lands were offered up by the Feds until the 1950’s and they couldn’t even give it away.

2) It has been estimated that if even 4-5% of Federal lands in states like Nevada and Utah were offered for sale to the general public, it would so depress the real estate market to a point where rural land would become almost worthless. Think about that...supply and demand...right now there is a demand commensurate with what is available (and many argue there is way more supply than demand). if you dump hundreds of thousands of acres of land into the marketplace, even over a period of years, you will burden the market with surplus land and drive down the value of private property to levels not seen in 75-100 years. You will bankrupt thousands of ordinary citizens.

This problem is way more complicated than most people realize.


9 posted on 05/25/2014 4:54:58 PM PDT by XRdsRev (New Jersey - Crossroads of the American Revolution)
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To: yefragetuwrabrumuy

“Next is to modify the endangered species act so that the ability to enforce the act no longer lies with the federal government, but actions can only be made by state governments at the *recommendation* of the federal government. When and if the state government balances the recommendations against other uses of that land and the private property within that land.”

I disagree.

If King George could not get away with ‘quartering soldiers in private lands/homes may this unenlightened one inquire as to how Fedzilla can quarter any critter on private land?

For all their beastly behavior, Redcoats didn’t actually devour any colonists - which is more than can be said for beasts protected by the Endangered Species Act.


10 posted on 05/25/2014 5:05:31 PM PDT by GladesGuru (Islam Delenda Est - because of what Islam is and because of what Muslims do.)
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To: XRdsRev
drive down the value of private property

And? How is that my problem? Sounds like it might be a problem for vested interests, but you don't stop reducing the size of government because there are problems.

It will all sort itself out, in the end. The Feds need to turn the land over to the States, regardless of all the concerns that the concern trolls have.

/johnny

11 posted on 05/25/2014 5:12:40 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: XRdsRev

One fellow here in Oregon wants the lands handed over to the counties. The counties can then sell off for development or maintain the lands as is for ‘green space’ or to sell timber. Many of our counties are struggling as most of the land is tied up by the feds, who are no longer managing it as a resource. That’s the main issue.


12 posted on 05/25/2014 5:57:18 PM PDT by Twotone (Marte Et Clypeo)
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To: yefragetuwrabrumuy

And then, finally, would be the great return of lands to the states. Doing it this way would hopefully remove obstacles and the ability of arrogant federal judges to interfere with or halt the process.
*******************************
Good posting. I like your ideas on this.


13 posted on 05/25/2014 5:58:24 PM PDT by octex
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To: JRandomFreeper

“It will all sort itself out, in the end. The Feds need to turn the land over to the States, regardless of all the concerns that the concern trolls have.”

Good to see you have really thought this through.


14 posted on 05/25/2014 6:04:21 PM PDT by XRdsRev (New Jersey - Crossroads of the American Revolution)
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To: XRdsRev
I'm really not interested in the status quo. I know there will be problems associated with reducing the size and scope of government. I'm willing to deal with those problems as opportunities.

Those that are interested in the status quo will turn those problems into insurmountable obstacles.

/johnny

15 posted on 05/25/2014 6:09:56 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: Twotone

“One fellow here in Oregon wants the lands handed over to the counties.”

That may be an option in some cases. But and this is a big but...you have to have a county government willing and able to follow through on the deal long term. This is where it becomes a problem.

You can believe me or not but in the past I worked on programs trying to transfer land to local/county governments......in the end, once they realized all that was involved and the responsibility and liability they would be taking on, very few remained interested in the deal.


16 posted on 05/25/2014 6:10:00 PM PDT by XRdsRev (New Jersey - Crossroads of the American Revolution)
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To: XRdsRev
all that was involved and the responsibility and liability

Then those artificial responsibilities and liabilities created by government droids need to be removed with the same law that returns the land to the States.

Of course, that will cost a lot of phony-baloney jobs.

/johnny

17 posted on 05/25/2014 6:27:34 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: JRandomFreeper

“artificial responsibilities and liabilities “

I don’t think you really understand the nature of responsibilities and liabilities that come with land ownership at the government or private level. They may be artificial in the theoretical sense but not in the practical sense. Even the government can’t just wave a magic wand and make them go away.


18 posted on 05/25/2014 6:53:43 PM PDT by XRdsRev (New Jersey - Crossroads of the American Revolution)
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To: XRdsRev
I'm very familiar with the nature of land ownership at the private level, since I am a land owner.

You make it out to be a much greater problem than it really is.

I suspect that you have a vested interest, and are perhaps a government employee or contractor.

/johnny

19 posted on 05/25/2014 6:56:58 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: Twotone

First off..it is not the federal governments to sell. Second, the Federal government holds no authority to hold any land other than what is listed in the enumerated powers...17th clause/power.

Thirdly, the states shall regain control of those lands. What they do with them after is none of anyones business other than that state.

If these lands, were to be held by the federal government, then why is it that they are managed as a trust? Trustees are removeable, and it is high time the states remove those trustees and install their own.


20 posted on 05/25/2014 6:58:52 PM PDT by crz
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To: XRdsRev
Texas doesn't seem to have a problem with land ownership, and the feds own very little land here. Texas has thousands of square miles of basically (currently) useless scrub lands.

/johnny

21 posted on 05/25/2014 6:59:30 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: JRandomFreeper

After 30 years of doing various things from working in the corporate world to owning two businesses, I ended up as a Federal government employee. I help keep our warfighters from getting killed....it is the most rewarding thing I have ever done professionally. I am not ashamed of that.


22 posted on 05/25/2014 7:08:46 PM PDT by XRdsRev (New Jersey - Crossroads of the American Revolution)
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To: Twotone
Many of our counties are struggling as most of the land is tied up by the feds, who are no longer managing it as a resource.

Indeed. One of the unpublished problems is that there are hundreds, if not thousands of feral horses in Nevada, many in the Bundy area. They are eating the place bare and drinking it dry. The BLM claims it has no funds to gather them up and instead, cut the ranchers' grazing allotments "to preserve the wilderness area".

Here's an article about it in the local newspaper: Debate continues on feral horse issue

and

Ranchers should charge BLM for thirsty horses.

23 posted on 05/25/2014 7:14:17 PM PDT by Oatka (This is America. Assimilate or evaporate.)
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To: XRdsRev
Wonderful, I'm happy for you. I served in the military during the cold war, and again in the latest unpleasantness.

You don't address my point that Texas doesn't seem to have a problem owning vast swathes of land. The responsibilities are obviously not debilitating. I don't see Texas trying to give the Feds any land.

Federal lands need to be turned over to the States. It's not as big of a problem as you make it out to be. Excuses be damned.

The federal government needs to be reduced in size and scope to fit back in the constitutional box it came in. That's what conservatives work for.

/johnny

24 posted on 05/25/2014 7:17:17 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: JRandomFreeper

“The federal government needs to be reduced in size and scope to fit back in the constitutional box it came in. That’s what conservatives work for.”

Agreed but there is a right way and a wrong way to tackle any given problem. Texas seems to be on the right track but every place isn’t Texas. They have different problems, concerns and interests, all of which need to be weighed and addressed when coming up with solutions. I don’t disagree with you in a general philosophical sense, however I disagree with your assessment of the ease with which this problem can be solved.

I want solutions but not ones that were so carelessly thought out that they screw over the same people they were intended to help.

“Good” intentions and lack of critical long term thinking got us into this (government) mess. The same won’t get us out of it.


25 posted on 05/25/2014 7:32:01 PM PDT by XRdsRev (New Jersey - Crossroads of the American Revolution)
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To: Twotone

Bingo. Sell the land to American citizens.


26 posted on 05/25/2014 7:35:28 PM PDT by WorkingClassFilth
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To: XRdsRev
There will be problems, and some will be large problems. There will also be opportunities.

Excuses, and putting off what needs to be done while studies are done damn sure won't get us out of the mess we're in.

The cautious approach is destroying America and Americans. It's time to break the federal government of it's over-reach. The States are perfectly capable of handling things on their own. Perfection isn't an option.

/johnny

27 posted on 05/25/2014 7:37:01 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: XRdsRev

PS. Thanks for your service!! As a military man I am sure you have seen more than your fair share of “great” ideas that ended up not working out as they were intended.


28 posted on 05/25/2014 7:38:05 PM PDT by XRdsRev (New Jersey - Crossroads of the American Revolution)
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To: JRandomFreeper

Not looking for perfection. Just looking for practical and workable.


29 posted on 05/25/2014 7:39:16 PM PDT by XRdsRev (New Jersey - Crossroads of the American Revolution)
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To: JRandomFreeper

Duh...I originally posted it to myself

PS. Thanks for your service!! As a military man I am sure you have seen more than your fair share of “great” ideas that ended up not working out as they were intended.


30 posted on 05/25/2014 7:41:06 PM PDT by XRdsRev (New Jersey - Crossroads of the American Revolution)
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To: XRdsRev
All I've seen from you is reasons it can't be done.

The practical and workable solution is the one that actually gets tried. Paralysis of analysis is unacceptable.

/johnny

31 posted on 05/25/2014 7:42:09 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: XRdsRev
A bad idea is better than no idea.

If it's crazy and it works, it's not crazy.

/johnny

32 posted on 05/25/2014 7:43:50 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: JRandomFreeper

“A bad idea is better than no idea.”

Absolutely untrue.


33 posted on 05/25/2014 7:46:21 PM PDT by XRdsRev (New Jersey - Crossroads of the American Revolution)
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To: XRdsRev
Absolutely true if what you are currently doing is destroying you. And what we are currently doing is destroying us.

/johnny

34 posted on 05/25/2014 7:49:01 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: JRandomFreeper

“Paralysis of analysis is unacceptable.”

I am not saying we need to think this to death but not giving it any serious thought is just plain careless.


35 posted on 05/25/2014 7:55:40 PM PDT by XRdsRev (New Jersey - Crossroads of the American Revolution)
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To: crz
You say that that the feds can't hold(own?) land, but the courts say that do.

And Congress functions as the trustees or board. They give guidelines to the prez and his agency on how they want the land managed.

These guidelines would include, but not be limited to, National Environmental Policy Act, Endangered Species Act, Wild Horse and Burro Act, Clean Water Act, Federal Lands and Policy Management Act. These lands have to be managed for multiple use.

Everybody gets to use the lands: grazers, wild horses, wildlife, hunters, campers, coal miners, gold miners, hikers, ATVers, horse back riders, oil producers, etc. Consequently there will always be conflicts.

36 posted on 05/25/2014 7:57:23 PM PDT by Ben Ficklin
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To: JRandomFreeper

“Absolutely true if what you are currently doing is destroying you. And what we are currently doing is destroying us.”

A bad idea is never better than no idea. It is basic logic that a bad idea will always make things worse (if it didn’t, it wouldn’t be a bad idea). Therefore even if you are being destroyed, a bad idea will only destroy you faster thus decreasing your opportunity for thinking up a good idea.


37 posted on 05/25/2014 8:02:36 PM PDT by XRdsRev (New Jersey - Crossroads of the American Revolution)
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To: XRdsRev
The serious thought is... This must happen.

Everything else is excuses.

The Revolutionary War completely wiped out British investment in the American Colonies. Quite a disruptive event. Tough noogies.

As I said, I am NOT interested in maintaining the status quo, or even concerned overly about the disruption that reverting to a constitutional government causes. People died the last time the status quo was overturned. That is to be expected.

/johnny

38 posted on 05/25/2014 8:03:32 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: XRdsRev
You've obviously never had a drill sergeant yell "Do something! Even if it's wrong!" at you. There are times that the status quo will kill you graveyard dead. What may appear to be a bad idea can save you if it gets you off dead center.

/johnny

39 posted on 05/25/2014 8:05:40 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: Oatka
The wild horses are protected or granted a place on the public lands by the Wild Horse Act. But since the wild horse population grows about 20% per year(doubles every 3.5 years) they have to round them up frequently.

When they do, the wild horse lovers, of which there are many, many, many in the US, complain that BLM is being cruel. Then after the round-up, the grazers complain because BLM didn't catch all the horses.

After the round-up, they have to store them. They can't kill them or sell them to processors. They have many huge pens where they store these horses that they have to feed and provide vet services until natural death. They probably have more horses in these pens than there are on the range. They probably spend more money on these stored horses than they do managing the horses on the range.

40 posted on 05/25/2014 8:14:51 PM PDT by Ben Ficklin
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To: Nailbiter

bflr


41 posted on 05/25/2014 8:24:21 PM PDT by Nailbiter
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To: GladesGuru

Only a tiny minority of animals covered by the ESA are dangerous. And while there are dangerous ones, they are not the focus of the truly massive land grabs, which is done for less visible creatures like mice, insects, plants, etc.

Like right now, the feds want to take 6,000 acres from Arizona for the “New Mexico meadow jumping mouse”.

It is “Listed as Least Concern because it is very widespread, common and not in decline throughout most of its extensive range, it occurs in many protected areas and there are no major threats.” Except in that 6,000 acres in southern Arizona that the federal want to grab. Territory on the extreme end of where that mouse can live.

In 2004, 31,000 acres along streams in Colorado and Wyoming have been set aside as critical habitat for the “Preeble’s Mouse”, inflicting tremendous costs on those wishing to use their land. And even after it was proven that the “Preeble’s Mouse” *didn’t exist*, though it had cost some $100 million to those who lived in the area, the federals just shrugged and said that no, they were not going to give that land back.

Yes, wolves and bears can threaten ranchers herds and even people. But the federals are the far worse threat to their prosperity and very lives.


42 posted on 05/26/2014 6:31:29 AM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy ("Don't compare me to the almighty, compare me to the alternative." -Obama, 09-24-11)
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To: Ben Ficklin

I dont give a rats ass what any court case might have said. The courts are as corrupt as the congress.

Congress might OVERSEE the function of the trustee, but the management has failed, and the states now take over.

Your reply is so immature and uneducated it I have no wonder why this nation is in the state it is.


43 posted on 05/26/2014 7:23:20 AM PDT by crz
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To: yefragetuwrabrumuy

As a past member of the FL Sierra Club’s Florida Executive Committee (FLEXCOM) I can assure you the purpose of the Great Un-Natural Acts was to communize America. They worked as planned.

I suggested the “quartering” argument because American courts are an intellectual perverts dance macabre.

Between ‘standing’ and a catchy tune for a commie justice of five to sing along with, Natural Law has been violated so often that Lady Justice has become a ‘leather bottomed whore’.

As usual, laws, including the Great Un-Natural Acts, are used by those in power to perform the usual nasties as defined in Kipling’s famous ‘take from collective Peter and give to selected Paul’.

Hope for anything good? Dream on - as an example, my land in the Everglades has been under a 99% open space requirement, but no taking has occurred. Jim Burling, at Pacific Legal said I was not a sufficiently sympathetic client and when a property rights champion like Jim said something like that, you can forget about the Republic being returnable to anything similar to what the Founders thought they had created.

Meanwhile, back on the Gubment lands, critters were leaving as socialism demonstrated it was tolerable for neither man nor beast.

No snout has ever left the Gubment Trough willingly.

Historically, the Trough ran dry due to bankruptcy or a war killed off the Trough Feeders or destroyed the Trough and Trough Feeders alike. I hope America can be an exception to the history of Trough Feeding/Trough Feeders - but hope is thin these days.

History says tomorrow doesn’t look good either, not for the Trough and not for the Trough Feeders.


44 posted on 05/26/2014 7:39:19 AM PDT by GladesGuru (Islam Delenda Est - because of what Islam is and because of what Muslims do.)
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To: Ben Ficklin
They probably spend more money on these stored horses than they do managing the horses on the range.

Yeah, that's what the article said. More good intentions gone wrong.

45 posted on 05/26/2014 7:42:08 AM PDT by Oatka (This is America. Assimilate or evaporate.)
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To: crz
If you don't recognize the Court, then you have only one option, the militia option. Are you a sovereign citizen or posse comitatus, or both?

You say "the states now take over". Making that statement leads to the "Transfer of Public Lands Act". So if that Act leads to a court decision, and you don't recognize the court, what will you do then?

I know what you will do. Exactly what you do now. You log onto Free Republic so that you bitch, moan, and whine and try to act like bad ass.

46 posted on 05/26/2014 7:43:09 AM PDT by Ben Ficklin
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To: Oatka
Are you the same person that posted a BLM video a couple weeks ago that dealt with range fires and wild horses?

If you are, would you please re-post that. I meant to save it, but somehow it got away.

47 posted on 05/26/2014 7:51:31 AM PDT by Ben Ficklin
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To: Ben Ficklin

Been up to Nevada lately chum? I have.

Now when are you going to back up your mouth?


48 posted on 05/26/2014 7:56:42 AM PDT by crz
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To: Ben Ficklin

“Are you the same person that posted a BLM video a couple weeks ago that dealt with range fires and wild horses?”

No, but out of curiosity I searched YouTube using “blm wild horses video” and got this (will check it out later on):
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=blm+wild+horses+video


49 posted on 05/26/2014 9:01:04 AM PDT by Oatka (This is America. Assimilate or evaporate.)
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To: Oatka

Thanks for you effort, but I didn’t see it there. I had also previously searched for it. I’ll try again later looking thru that BLM National and the other YouTube channels.


50 posted on 05/26/2014 10:29:21 AM PDT by Ben Ficklin
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