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Politico is right: Gay marriage will destroy the Republican Party
http://www.gopusa.com ^ | June 2, 2014 | Bryan Fischer

Posted on 06/02/2014 9:44:41 PM PDT by NKP_Vet

Earlier this week Politico featured a David Lampo piece, "Gay Marriage Will Destroy the GOP." Politico is exactly right that gay marriage will destroy the GOP – but for precisely the opposite reason Lampo imagines.

In his article, Lampo argues that if the GOP does not embrace gay marriage, it is doomed. The truth of the matter is exactly the opposite: it is embracing gay marriage that will doom the GOP and consign it to the ash heap of history.

Politico wants us to believe the tide of history is inevitable, and the GOP either must get on board the gay love boat or get swept out to sea where it will disappear beneath the waves.

It would be one thing if Politico had the best interests of the Republican Party at heart, but it does not.

(Excerpt) Read more at gopusa.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: gaymarriage; gop; homosexualagenda; republicans; samesexmarriage
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1 posted on 06/02/2014 9:44:41 PM PDT by NKP_Vet
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To: NKP_Vet

The best thing the GOP could do would be to ignore gay marriage. Like it, ot not, its pretty much out of their control. When forced, candidates should say it’s a states’ issue


2 posted on 06/02/2014 9:55:44 PM PDT by be-baw (still seeking)
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To: NKP_Vet
Pretty much all BS. Most people have little investment in this issue, whether they are pro or con. Like global warming, people will give an opinion if pushed but few actually give a sh*t.
3 posted on 06/02/2014 9:57:26 PM PDT by hinckley buzzard
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To: NKP_Vet

The author is right on target.

the GOP has no choice but to stand against gay marriage and make the fight for Traditional Marriage a centerpiece of their campaigns in 2014 and 2016.


4 posted on 06/02/2014 9:58:50 PM PDT by Oliviaforever
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To: NKP_Vet

The author is right on target.

the GOP has no choice but to stand against gay marriage and make the fight for Traditional Marriage a centerpiece of their campaigns in 2014 and 2016.


5 posted on 06/02/2014 9:58:50 PM PDT by Oliviaforever
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To: be-baw
When forced, candidates should say it’s a states’ issue

So state amendments and measures can then be overturned by activist judges. No thanks. Stand for something, candidates. Stand for morality. You might be surprised at what people think.

6 posted on 06/02/2014 9:59:30 PM PDT by Colonel_Flagg ("Compromise" means you've already decided you lost.)
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To: be-baw

I do not think that there are any such things as state’s issues any longer.

We are subjects of the beast.


7 posted on 06/02/2014 10:03:11 PM PDT by chris37 (heartless)
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To: Colonel_Flagg

Correct; just as has been happening, too. Just happened to Pennsylvania.

People are getting angry because of the supposedly “conservative” politicians being apathetic about morality.


8 posted on 06/02/2014 10:03:59 PM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: NKP_Vet

Progressives have a favorite phrase, that of being "on the right side of history." Progressives believe in linear history, and that they are the vangaurd of that history. Yet actual, real history is nothing like that.

Mayans didn't build these temples in the forest, they built them in the middle of their cities. These cities were large, and were more densly populated than Los Angeles is today. Then in a span of 200 years, the population dropped by 90%, and their culture was gone. They never recovered, and the forests took the cities back. The Mexicans and Central Americans live around these ruins, but they are not really the same people and culture, even if they are directly decended from them. History was not linear for the Mayans. It wasn't linear for the Russians, or the Romans, and it won't be for us.

For all their euphoria, progressives can't see the future implications that all of their engineering results in sterility of the population. They offer abortion, birth control, divorce and single parenthood, pornography, STDs, gay rights, student loan debt so people won't start families, high housing costs, low wages, and unemployment. None of that promotes forming families. There is no future for progressives.

The only way we think we are getting by in America today is through immigration, but that doesn't really count. What is happening is that at such a high rate of collapse, we are being replaced by immigrants, not enhanced.

Progressivism is a philosophy of death, and we can't survive by being a me too party. We have to step outside of the culture of death and let it collapse. Either conservative or immigrants will inherit the country after the collapse, just as the Christians inherited Rome.

9 posted on 06/02/2014 10:12:50 PM PDT by Vince Ferrer
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To: NKP_Vet

Problem is, the gay activists have us by the politically correct s&c’s. Homosexuality is so widespread now that almost everyone knows someone personally who is gay. People don’t want to risk being a b-word. That is why we have probably lost this one.


10 posted on 06/02/2014 10:14:32 PM PDT by firebrand
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To: Vince Ferrer

Good thoughts.


11 posted on 06/02/2014 10:17:13 PM PDT by firebrand
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To: NKP_Vet

Candidates need to focus on the constitution.

If the constitution were adhered to morality would be back in the hands of the people where it belongs.

Roe v wade would’ve been decided correctly, which it wasn’t and judges would not be overturning states’ decisions

All a candidate has to do is stay with the focus of the job description otherwise it becomes a war over who’s will wins the day and that is not working. The libs have the media so public opinion is under their control. We can’t win that.

Swaying opinion to a conservative or liberal set culturally is tge job of the culture not the candidate. More important to remember this when we really can’t win that fight in the political arena


12 posted on 06/02/2014 10:17:39 PM PDT by stanne
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To: Vince Ferrer

Good post, V Ferrer, and if things continue on the track we are on it won’t be long before the forests take back what we, too, have created.


13 posted on 06/02/2014 10:18:14 PM PDT by Robwin
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To: chris37

Sadly I think you’re right. There is a compelling argument for candidates to be much more oriented to putting issues down to ‘states rights’, but this is totally disingenuous as long as still far too many Republican governors and Republican controlled state legislatures are cowardly in the extreme. There are good signs, for instance I think its Kansas trying to now impeach half their judiciary over liberal votes. Until we really see states stepping forward and actively asserting sovereign authority, its hard for the GOP to make the case here, because you cannot refer the issue down to bodies that are essentially subservient to the federal government.

I think this is itself a strong argument any contender could make and I’ll be interested to see if any candidate has the acumen to take it on and boldly stand for the total return of legitimate authorities stolen from the states back to the states.
It’s unfortunate you then run into the sacred cows of Medicare and Social Security which were essentially used not as most people think, to primarily enslave individuals by stealing their money, but primarily to enslave the states by having the citizenry of each state reliant on the federal government for their retirement. This meant that if the state went up and challenged the federal government in a meaningful way, it would not have the support of the people should the federal government threaten to cease payments to the people of that state. It’s like a permanent hostage scenario.

This has led to the de-sovereignization of the states and disarmed one check and balance on federal power. The more I think about such things, the more any potential GOP candidate is going to have to impress me in order to warrant my vote and support. I don’t want platitudes and slogans and ‘sticking it to Hillary!’ to be the main concern of primary voters. The concern is, is the candidate aware of the truth behind America’s problems, and do they have the iron will to solve them.


14 posted on 06/02/2014 10:22:53 PM PDT by Viennacon
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To: firebrand
almost everyone knows someone personally who is gay. People don’t want to risk being a b-word.

I guess I am the rare person who doesn't know someone personally who is gay and who doesn't care if someone calls me names.

15 posted on 06/02/2014 10:29:42 PM PDT by steve86 ( Acerbic by nature, not nurture)
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To: hinckley buzzard

And the basis for your enlightened opinion?


16 posted on 06/02/2014 10:30:04 PM PDT by Paulie (Buy local, bank local, exert your influence locally; the left will fold like a cheap suit.)
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To: Vince Ferrer

Yes, good comment.


17 posted on 06/02/2014 10:30:06 PM PDT by steve86 ( Acerbic by nature, not nurture)
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To: Viennacon

I think you are precisely right.

I do not think for one second, and this is a fairly recent revelation that I have had, that this country’s problems are going to be solved via elections.

I’m not even really sure that they are even solvable at this point, and I think I am more of the opinion that this house of cards is going to fall. Hard.

The people of this country have been so thoroughly conned and lied to so well that those lies have become their belief system. Those lies have taken root in their souls.

I really think that our motto should be changed to In Lies We Trust, because that is exactly the case in America.

I don’t even know if I want to waste what time I have left trying to distinguish one lying candidate form the next, because most people in this country do not have even the slightest clue as to what is going on. It is quite literally like they are living in The Matrix for real.

I do even know what else to say. This is a bad place, and there are very bad men here.


18 posted on 06/02/2014 10:32:37 PM PDT by chris37 (heartless)
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To: Olog-hai
The battle against homosexual rights has been lost because the opponents of those rights have never been able to make a persuasive case that permitting sodomy directly adversely affects the lives of voters. Specifically, the case has never persuasively been made that homosexual marriage somehow destroys the institution of marriage much less the marriage of two heterosexual voters.

Increasing voter support for homosexual rights can be traced to the absence of harm to a direct victim. Social conservatives, of whom I count myself one, will be well served to resist the temptation to legislate their version of morality which is indirectly good for society but for which immediate, direct an identifiable harm is so difficult to prove.

For one thing, this tendency is in philosophical opposition to the essential conservative laissez-faire attitude toward individual choices in business dealings, familial responsibilities, free speech and choices in religion, disposition over property, and, generally, matters of personal liberty. It leaves an increasing demographic block of secularized voters feeling they could be the next victim to someone else's version of immorality. Indeed, there is a whole body of voters who believe it is tolerant and even desirable to condone deviancy. They think, with some justice, that the proper venues to decide these matters are found in churches and the public square but not in legislative chambers or courtrooms.

The party of liberty is seen as the party of oppression.

Where such harm plainly exists, as in abortion, conservatives are on safe ground and are well served to vigorously advocate on behalf of of innocent victims.


19 posted on 06/02/2014 10:33:47 PM PDT by nathanbedford ("Attack, repeat, attack!" Bull Halsey)
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To: NKP_Vet

Once I saw who wrote it, I knew what his angle would be. I read Bryan Fischer’s twitters almost daily.

He has said so much as this before: https://twitter.com/BryanJFischer

Originally, he’s from Idaho and his father was a conscientious objector in World War II but I think his father still served the war effort, just didn’t fight, red cross, medical, something like that.


20 posted on 06/02/2014 10:37:47 PM PDT by BeadCounter
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To: nathanbedford

Some poster here, Freeper here once wrote that once the Supreme Court struck down “sodomy laws” back in the ‘70s, it would seem to eventually allow something like homosexual marriage to happen. I think that is right.


21 posted on 06/02/2014 10:41:57 PM PDT by BeadCounter
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To: NKP_Vet

“Gay marriage” is satanic.


22 posted on 06/02/2014 10:43:55 PM PDT by Berlin_Freeper
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To: firebrand

Honestly, this issue was lost a long time ago. When a union before God had to be sanctioned and subsidized by government this result was inevitable. It was only a matter of time before the those who sought another agenda would come to power and use the power of the government to push their agenda. .

Without the official stamp of government on marriage, where would the gay agenda be? What would they have to complain about?

This is a perfect example for limited government.


23 posted on 06/02/2014 10:44:50 PM PDT by Honcho
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To: be-baw

“.....candidates should say it’s a states’ issue.”

But it’s not. Every state that’s voted on “gay marriage” has voted against it. It’s then taken to the courts where a judge decides any law against “gay marriage” is “unconstitutional.” Then the pressure is put on voters to say, OK, so “gay marriage” is all right after all.


24 posted on 06/02/2014 10:50:02 PM PDT by EDINVA
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To: EDINVA

Unfortunately, I think Washington State broke the pattern of every state where a public vote was held, voted against Gay Marriage. I don’t know if they are the only one.

However, Iowa and so on, it was made legal by judges or legislatures as in NY State.


25 posted on 06/02/2014 10:56:48 PM PDT by BeadCounter
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To: All

NOMBlog came out and said we shouldn’t act like losing this struggle is a foregone conclusion and I agree. Fight it always. I think there would be quite an uproar if this was forced on the nation as law of the land. But I could well be wrong and I tend to be an optimist. I’m not sure the battle is lost.

Arkansas State Supreme Court suspended a Federal Judge’s decision to make gay marriage the law in that state.


26 posted on 06/02/2014 11:02:22 PM PDT by BeadCounter
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To: NKP_Vet
  Politico wants us to believe the tide of history is inevitable

  That's the sort of thinking that led to the fall of Rome. Abandoning something fundamental to civilization because someone created a catchy marketing slogan is certainly an act of cowardice.
27 posted on 06/02/2014 11:14:55 PM PDT by Maurice Tift (Never wear anything that panics the cat. -- P.J. O'Rourke)
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To: BeadCounter

Did you see what happened to those judges in iowa that upheld gay marriage? The people fired their bent asses.


28 posted on 06/02/2014 11:19:50 PM PDT by HANG THE EXPENSE (Life's tough.It's tougher when you're stupid.)
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To: NKP_Vet

29 posted on 06/02/2014 11:27:45 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: BeadCounter
Relevant to your observation, here is a post which I filed in February 2012: I am ambivalent about gay marriage.

First, I am acutely sensitive to the maintenance of the family because I have a hobby horse which I ride ceaselessly on these threads: the left is attacking every institution which holds our society together and which holds back the advance of socialism/communism/statism. The attacks on the family were fashioned originally by The Frankfurt School which delivered a 1-2 punch, attacking the family and destroying the father's role as an authority figure within the family. That means That The Frankfurt School and its misbegotten spawn have long aimed to destroy the institution of marriage.

Therefore, I am reflexively hostile to any threat to the institution of marriage because I see it as part of the crimes of cultural marxism arising out of The Frankfurt School. If I am to err, let it always be on the side defending the world against The Frankfurt School.

Let me clear away some of the underbrush. There has been much equating of abortion and homosexual marriage. The objection to abortion is profound and it need not be grounded in religion. Abortion is the killing of a human being not yet born and as such it is indefensible. Moreover, the practice involves the infliction of harm on an innocent victim who in this case cannot defend himself. That certainly is not true of adult homosexuals desirous of entering into a marriage. There cannot be said to be a victim. To the degree that opponents of homosexual marriage are seen to be invoking the law to impose their objections to private conduct, without a victim, the political party which supports them will not be supported by an increasing number of Americans. To the degree that the opponents of homosexual marriage are seen to be invoking the law to punish activity done in private which subjectively makes them squirm, the political party which supports them will not be supported by an increasing number of Americans.

The Question for me becomes, does the very fact of the law sanctioning marriage between couples of the same sex inevitably undermine the institution of marriage between heterosexual couples? I know that the social conservatives are emphatic in holding that the institution of heterosexual marriage will be mortally compromised. But I have never understood exactly why this should be so. I think the belief is that sodomy is such a grotesquerie that to equate it with the God ordained sacrament is to defile marriage. To sanctify sodomy with a solemn and legal marriage certificate is an outrage which defiles marriage.

It seems to me that this reaction is a subjective one and that means that one man's subjective reaction is as valid as another man's. Some people are troubled by this and some people are not. I have trouble declaring that one reaction ought to be elevated in the law over the other.

There is also the problem that sodomy between consenting adults done in private has been awarded by the Supreme Court the status of constitutional protection. Therefore, no state may prohibit homosexual sex done by adults in private. Evidently, they have a constitutional right of privacy to bugger each other as much as they want.

Parenthetically, it is important to note that almost nobody objects to civil unions or civil contracts which give gays the right of inheritance, custody and visitation, hospital access, and burial rites etc. I am inclined to think that society ought to grant these rights to gays as a matter of course. On the other hand, conservatives rightly reject the notion that someone can declare himself married and thereby obtain benefits from the government to which he would not otherwise be entitled. I am very much in sympathy with this position. Hence one source of my ambivalence.

So opponents of homosexual marriage are being forced onto an ever narrowing land bridge. On one hand the activity sanctified by marriage, homosexual sex, has already been sanctified by the Supreme Court and is therefore perfectly legal. On the other hand the majority of Americans agree that virtually all the benefits of marriage should be accorded homosexuals by virtue of their choosing to enter into a civil contract. So the narrow land bridge says that homosexuals can do everything else married couples can do except go through a ceremony which is acknowledged by the state. The problem with this remaining remnant of dry land from which to object to homosexual marriage is that homosexuals can easily find some church which will conduct the ceremony. So opponents of homosexual marriage are reduced to maintaining the hollow position that the church ceremony, which practically can be done at will, may not be acknowledged by the state.

As the ground under the feet of those who object to homosexual marriage continues to erode, it is becoming clearer that they are on the wrong side of history. That is not necessarily a good thing. Not a good thing for our society and, unfortunately, not a good thing for the conservative movement.

There is an argument which weighs on behalf of the opponents of gay marriage. The historical fact is that marriage is and always has been inextricably bound up in religion and it is a deep tradition in our culture that marriage is done according to the precepts of our Judeo Christian heritage. Clearly, homosexual marriage is explicitly and provocatively contrary to those faiths. Religion has given birth to the concept of marriage and as such it has a claim on the concept. It is a claim that says if you want a make a marriage you must do it according to our precepts, if you want to behave contrary to our precepts you must call it something else: a "civil union" would be a good name.

This argument says that it is important to protect the sanctity of marriage from degrading it by associating it with sodomy. I am sympathetic to this view because as I stated at the beginning, if you destroy the family you have gone a long way toward destroying any resistance to the kind of society people like Barak Obama would like to impose on us.

But I am not so sympathetic as to go to the wall to protect the institution of marriage from a threat which I see to be attenuated and probably inevitable when to do might compromise other important precepts of conservatism resulting in the very real sacrifice of real victims- like unborn babies.


30 posted on 06/02/2014 11:33:10 PM PDT by nathanbedford ("Attack, repeat, attack!" Bull Halsey)
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To: be-baw

Surrendering is never a winning strategy


31 posted on 06/02/2014 11:36:59 PM PDT by GeronL (Vote for Conservatives not for Republicans)
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To: BeadCounter; firebrand
If you can stand it here is another post from 2010, this one rather long, which talks about homosexual marriage and liberty:

The idea of racism has been institutionalized in our culture as something that is repugnant and utterly hateful. So it is not surprising that proponents of homosexual rights including homosexual marriage invoke the civil rights struggle at least by way of analogy. But these analogies are not the sole property of the homosexual side of the argument. The president of the National Organization for Marriage, sees a distinct danger to liberty from equating sexual preference with race, Maggie Gallagher has observed,

“Once the law endorses this principle, traditional religious communities are going to be treated like racists if we act on and promote our countercultural view [that] there’s something special about unions of husband and wife. Ocean Grove is the tip of a very large iceberg. Take it seriously.”

Evidently, Maggie Gallagher knew what she was talking about because she was an original proponent of California’s Proposition Eight which the court has just struck down.

Why should the law have an interest in whether private enterprise provides separate but equal services to homosexuals? The answer is because the homosexual lobby has succeeded in writing statutes which prohibit discrimination against homosexuals. This sounds reasonable on its face, after all we prohibit discrimination based on sex, age, religion, ethnicity and race.

The rationale for these laws is that the discrimination is irrational as well as harmful. It is irrational because it assumes that every member of a class always behaves in a manner consistent with the stereotype of that class. Thus, if we fail to hire members of a given race because we think those people are shiftless, feckless, or dangerous, we might be right in our judgment as far as a statistical majority of that race is concerned. But the stereotype will never apply to 100% of the individuals in the race. There will always be individuals who break free of the stereotype, just as I intend someday to prove on the dance floor.

So from a sociologist’s or a statistician’s point of view, discrimination based on race is irrational. But it might not be irrational from a business point of view. If, for example, an employer believes that one race that is statistically more prone to crime than another, an easy way to eliminate a source of employee crime is to avoid hiring individuals of that race. It’s a very cheap screening process which, although not perfect, reduces risk at no apparent cost to the employer except perhaps in missed opportunity costs because he passed over a superior individual who performs counter to the stereotype. There may be other very rational reasons for employers to commit racial discrimination such as customer acceptance, and co-employee acceptance, to name a couple. But the law prohibits this kind of discrimination.

The law prohibits it ostensibly because politicians have calculated that the harm done to the individuals so stereotyped, whether rightly or wrongly, far outweighs any advantage devolving to employers who practice discrimination. This is a judgment call, a value call, made by politicians and imposed on society. The politicians have said: we arrogate unto ourselves the sole right to make this judgment and forbid you from making this very same judgment on penalty of criminal sanctions. We do not care whether your business sense tells you it is rational for you to discriminate based on race, we tell you that the societal cost is too high; our value trumps your value; nor do we care that we are depriving you of liberty when we deprive you of the right or power to discriminate; as a matter of fact, politicians will routinely say that there is no liberty to discriminate based on race because the act is so heinous. Again, this is a value judgment. When the emotion is wrung out of the issue, we must concede that the liberty of the employer is sacrificed to accommodate a more favored value.

Interestingly, the law permits one to discriminate based on race in the choice of a spouse. Evidently, society considers it a higher value to respect the liberty of the bigots who refuse an offer of marriage based solely on race than to require them to marry. On the other hand, the law has said that society may not prohibit miscegenation and must respect the liberty of people to marry who decline to discriminate against a suitor based on race. Not too many years ago the failure to discriminate was considered criminal by some jurisdictions. (Anti-miscegenation statutes overturned by the Supreme Court in Loving V. Virginia, 1967). So that which the employer may not do is absolutely ok for the lover to do, in fact, society may not interfere with the lover bent on doing that which is criminal if done by an employer. Clearly, the idea of legally prohibiting discrimination is a moving target as values shift up and down the scale depending on the circumstances and the ebb and flow of political correctness.

So I have lost my liberty as an employer to discriminate on the basis of race but in nearly the same time frame I have gained liberty to marry without being forced to discriminate on the basis of race. I have also retained a liberty to decline to marry because I choose to discriminate on the basis of race.

Well, this is certainly going to get complicated. First, it is not clear whether or not the law compels me to discriminate on the basis of sex when I marry. It has recently become more clear by virtue of the Supreme Court case Lawrence v. Texas (2003) that I have liberty to discriminate on the basis of sex about whom I might choose to (yuck) sodomize. In other words, the state cannot prohibit me from sodomizing someone of the same sex providing I do it in private (the old “don’t frighten the horses” test). So in the ever cascading values game, I am at liberty to sodomize whom I please but in about 48 jurisdictions at my last count I am not at liberty to decline to discriminate in marriage against persons of my own gender. The law compels me to discriminate against them if I want to marry them but not if I just want to bugger them.

Evidently, the Supreme Court permits buggery in private because it places a high value in the right of privacy. The Supreme Court so far has not chosen to invalidate laws against homosexual marriage, presumably because it does not value the right of homosexual marriage as highly as it does the right to bugger in private.

But fixing on privacy as the key to understanding these distinctions comes a cropper if I try to invoke the doctrine to permit me to bugger either sex when the objects of my attention are underage. Apparently, the need to protect the underaged from my perversity is greater than the interest society has in safeguarding my right to sodomize in private.

In some places state law apparently has no interest if I choose to bugger a horse or even if I choose to be buggered by a horse. Other states are gravely concerned about my equine perversities, although it is not clear whether they are more concerned to protect me or the horse. It seems we can’t get away from legislators’ preoccupation about frightening the horses.

Opponents of gay marriage have invoked the slippery slope argument saying that to permit me to marry my beloved (human) of the same sex opens the floodgates and would permit me to engage my sordid proclivities to engage in bestiality, polygamy and incest. Practices from which I am presently barred in most jurisdictions even if I am discreet enough to do it only in private. Slippery slope arguments rarely carry the day because it is human nature to worry about tomorrow’s problem tomorrow.

But let’s turn the slippery slope argument around. When one moves control over homosexual marriage from the state to the federal justice system and one applies a federal constitutional rather than state legislative standard, one in effect is elevating a new interpretation of the federal Constitution over the plain and expressed will of the people of the state, in this case California. From time immemorial, the memory of man runneth not to the contrary, it has been the will of the people which has decided these issues. If one disenfranchises the state from prohibiting gay marriage because one has found a federal constitutional right to gay marriage, one has effectively eliminated the expressed democratic desire of the people to determine these matters. It says in effect that there is no rational basis to let the people decide the matter, it says there is a higher value, a federal constitutional value which incidentally we judges have just discovered, which trumps the democratic will.

So the slippery slope argument is not just a broadside which says if you permit gay marriage you cannot in reason prohibit polygamy, it is an argument which says that you have taken away the constitutional and legal foundation which from time immemorial vouchsafes the power and the responsibility to the people to regulate these matters to their satisfaction. If there is no rational justification for prohibiting gay marriage, as the District Court judge has found, it can no longer be a matter of legal logic to say that the people have retained their power to prohibit polygamy.

It becomes a matter of political correctness exercised from the federal level. If there is no rational basis to prohibit me from marrying my male friend, there is equally no rational basis from prohibiting me from marrying my male cousin, or, two or three of my male cousins, or my female cousins. Or, if you’re concerned about DNA implications, there is no rational basis to prohibit me from marrying several of my male and female friends who are not related to me.

The law has put itself in the place where the judges insist that a newly found federal constitutional right to gay marriage is enough to overcome the will of the people concerning marriage but since we, the very same judges, have not discovered a concomitant federal constitutional right to commit polygamy, we shall suffer the will of the people on that issue to continue to prevail, at least until we discover that right - which might occur any day now.

The point of all this is not just to demonstrate that the law weighs one value against another and almost always prefers one value over another. The point is that to prefer one value over another is another way of saying that someone just got deprived of liberty. It is important that we do not let leftists change the subject. It may be perfectly good to deprive bigots of the right to discriminate but let not our indignation over discrimination based on race becloud our understanding that we are sacrificing liberty for some other value which might be very important to the person deprived. This can become significant when one takes the next step and deprives an innocent person who has not engaged in discrimination of equal opportunity to obtain jobs or academic placement. Liberals get away with depriving these innocents of the equal protection of laws because they have succeeded in shutting off the idea of liberty and the need always to preserve it.

It is not really fashionable today to talk about liberty. In fact, we have come to the place where it is politically incorrect to talk about liberty in the wrong context. When one considers, as I have tried to do, that political correctness can make for bad law it is almost impossible to describe the situation without being politically incorrect.


32 posted on 06/02/2014 11:56:05 PM PDT by nathanbedford ("Attack, repeat, attack!" Bull Halsey)
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To: nathanbedford

I don’t believe it’s down to the “persuasive” argument. The Founding Fathers knew of the struggle to maintain morality right from the start of the USA, after all.


33 posted on 06/03/2014 12:05:17 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: NKP_Vet

The Politico writer may well be correct in his assessment for the GOP. But, my feeling is - So What? Wrong is wrong. If you believe homosexual “marriage” is wrong have the guts to say so.

If the people won’t vote you in because of your view, so be it. The sin is upon them. At least you tried to do the right thing.

I’ve seen the view expressed that, “we lost this issue long ago when we allowed the government to ‘sanction’ marriages”. I’ve also seen the view that social conservatives “lost the argument” because it was difficult to demonstrate the harm that homosexual marriage might have on society.

I find those extremely hard to accept.

At one time our nation had a commonly held general view of right and wrong based on Judeo-Christian Biblical morality. That didn’t mean that all Americans were professing Christians or even believers in God, but still there was, in general, a common view that there were moral absolutes. Homosexuality was roundly condemned as not only against God’s moral law, but was also viewed as sick, perverted, and a danger to moral society. This view was expressed in our local, state, and national governments.

The “harm” to society was obvious to most people in our country (not that long ago). The immediate harm to society is moral and spiritual decay. If sex between two men or two women can be seen as “normal”, then ultimately sex between anything can be seen as normal. It’s only a matter of time.

The “harm” to society for heterosexual sex outside of marriage was at one time recognized pretty much by all Americans. Again, the harm is in the normalizing of an act that is described as sin in the Bible. All this was recognized by most Americans in and out of government.

So, when local government required people to get a marriage license and be married by a judge or a duly recognized minister or rabbi - no one in their most horrific nightmare could dream that one day homosexual marriages would ever be an issue.

Of course, the problem today is that there is very little common ground anymore among many Americans as to what Right and Wrong are, let alone what constitutes “sin” anymore.

There is physical harm in acts with violate God’s moral laws - children out of wedlock, increase in poverty, crime, venereal diseases, AIDS, breakdown of the family structure. But, the overriding problem is that acceptance of immorality leads to more and greater lawlessness and immorality. What was once shocking now only elicits a chuckle or worse, nothing at all. Just think back to the sitcoms of the 1950’s and 1960’s - Father Knows Best, Andy Griffith, Hogan’s Heroes, etc. The humor in those shows was nothing like the “humor” in sitcoms today.

The controversy of Rhet Butler’s character using the “D” word in Gone with the Wind, wouldn’t even cause an eyeblink today.

Of course, it’s difficult to argue from a moral standpoint when there is no commonly held view on morality, and, when immorality on every level is seen as “normal”.

Our nation’s greatest problem is spiritual. Yes, vote and do what you can to change people’s minds, but ultimately, the underlying problem for our country is a problem of the soul.

Pray. Live a genuine Christian life (as opposed to a hypocritical life). Tell the truth of God in as gracious a way as possible, but tell it, don’t hide it. That’s all anyone can do. Love your family. Raise your children with Godly teaching and principles. Love your grandchildren and guide them with Godly principles and truth as well. Show the same to your neighbors and friends.

Be a preper (food, water, weapons, ammo, etc.), but understand that faith in God, no matter what the future holds, is the only sure foundation. God’s Kingdom goes on whether there will continue to be a United States of America or not. I pray our country will not only survive, but flourish once again as a nation “under God”, but even if it doesn’t, God is still there. His rule is forever. Nothing Obama or Clinton or the democrats or the GOPe can do or will do will change that.


34 posted on 06/03/2014 12:09:10 AM PDT by rusty schucklefurd
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To: Olog-hai

Do the right thing. Stand for the truth.

Facts are not a popularity contest.


35 posted on 06/03/2014 12:12:21 AM PDT by GeronL (Vote for Conservatives not for Republicans)
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To: be-baw
The best thing the GOP could do would be to ignore gay marriage. Like it, ot not, its pretty much out of their control. When forced, candidates should say it’s a states’ issue

Which state tells the federal government whether it allows gay marriage in the military, for the millions of federal employees and in immigration, and in international affairs and UN votes and foreign aid?

This is an issue that we need to know how every candidate will vote and fight for, at all levels of political office.

36 posted on 06/03/2014 12:36:42 AM PDT by ansel12 ((Ted Cruz and Mike Lee-both of whom sit on the Senate Judiciary Comm as Ginsberg's importance fades)
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To: NKP_Vet; All

Hell, let ‘em marry. Who gives a crap? They will still do the gay sex thing regardless. As a born-again Christian, I don’t believe in same-sex marriage nor am I for heterosexuals shacking up out of wedlock. So.... let the good times roll.


37 posted on 06/03/2014 12:42:50 AM PDT by Din Maker (Susana Martinez in 2016. Governor, Conservative, Female and Hispanic)
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To: firebrand

Oh right, they would much rather risk being sniveling cowards who thumb their noses at God. I’m not talking about the godless. They’ll do whatever they do. It was the Christians in Germany who may have disagreed with Hitler but stayed quiet because they didn’t want to rock the boat. I see the same thing happening right here.


38 posted on 06/03/2014 12:45:10 AM PDT by Waryone
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To: hinckley buzzard

I think you have it partially right. Homophilic advocates view it as an important issue. They represent a small percentage of the population. GENUINE conservatives - who can make or break an election for the GOP view it as important and oppose it.

But clearly, many of the mainstream religions have feloniously conspired with the advocates of unisex marriage, pushing the issue instead of opposing it.

DEFINE MARRIAGE AS OTHER THAN BETWEEN A MAN AND A WOMAN AND YOU ARE OPENING THE GATES TO ISLAMIC POLYGAMY WHICH IS PERHAPS WHERE HOMOSEXUAL ADVOCATES ARE GOING WITH THIS.


39 posted on 06/03/2014 12:48:16 AM PDT by ZULU (Impeach Obama NOW.)
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To: hinckley buzzard

Few actually give a shit?

Sorry buddy but you are dead wrong

Maybe where you live....certainly not here

Or the South


40 posted on 06/03/2014 12:52:06 AM PDT by wardaddy (we will not take back our way of life through peaceful means.....i have 5 kids....i fear for them)
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To: Vince Ferrer

The idea of history not being linear, and the probable results of that, is really interesting. Also, you write well. I wish you would form these thoughts into a longer article and submit it for publication somewhere that would be seen by a more “mainstream” audience. I think it would shake up some people.


41 posted on 06/03/2014 12:52:08 AM PDT by Hetty_Fauxvert (FUBO, and the useful idiots you rode in on!)
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To: NKP_Vet

Gays are maybe two percent of the electorate, negligible at best. Holding firm on traditional morality will gain us far more than that.

The media is pushing this gay crap, and I am sick of it!


42 posted on 06/03/2014 1:23:46 AM PDT by Gunpowder green
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To: GeronL

Nor is statesmanship. It certainly was not the case that Churchill was the most popular man in Britain’s government prior to the start of WWII.


43 posted on 06/03/2014 1:29:20 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai
What is government itself but the greatest of all reflections on human nature? If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary.

Clearly, Madison believed that neither government nor populace were peopled by angels. To the contrary both government and those governed are not angels. The problem can arise when those who govern conceive themselves angels and seek to control the baleful behavior of the governed, especially when those who govern forget that they themselves are no angels. Or, a problem can arise when those who govern believe they have the power of divine angels to change human nature.

One might observe that if all men were angels there would be no need to change human nature but since men are not angels is takes a power higher than man or man's government to change human nature and make angels of men.

Are our laws, what's left of them, against sodomy and sodomistic marriage designed to control behavior or to change human nature? Homosexuals tell us that that is the wrong question because it is natural for a homosexual, they say, to commit sodomy and no law can change that essential fact of their human nature. We have thousands of years of laws to do just that but we have failed wherever we have tried.

Here endeth the lesson of humility for the powers of government.


44 posted on 06/03/2014 2:40:24 AM PDT by nathanbedford ("Attack, repeat, attack!" Bull Halsey)
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To: nathanbedford

We haven’t failed universally, though. If we did, then the USA would never have come to be in the first place.


45 posted on 06/03/2014 2:44:43 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: Viennacon

Good exposition, and sound analysis and perspective; my compliments.

Pols usually are not as bright as we hope they should be. But given the right plan of attack they will get behind it.

Who should make that plan of attack and what does it look like?

Your perspective is one of high awareness and substance with glistening aspects of solution material in hints of states rights. But how to plan an attack or counterattack around themes of states rights? And do it in a way that those who are not of such high awareness as you and others in the conservative movement can get behind it. How to get the lesser aware behind it?

There are several approaches:

1. Populist - Ronald Reagan was able to woo the lesser aware with force of personality. The downside of this approach is that it is not lasting.

2. Honey Pot - this approach offers something to the voter in return for their participation. This approach is used quite successfully by the Left. This would lead to the same result we see today and would not make the lesser aware any more aware than they are today.

3. Independence - What could be offered here for example would be a land program, vocational training program, increased grant subsidies for such training especially in concert with a land program. The idea would be to provide a pathway towards independence with resource support and importantly the instillation or gradual establishment of the values of conservative traditions. One might entertain the thought of calling such a program “A Life of Dignity” and would avoid the ‘40 acres and a mule’ outcome by presold contracts of products or services, all administered at a state level. There is evidence of the workability and success of such an approach as this.

4. Existing Small Business Pitch - small businesses care primarily about one thing only, more customers in their stores and facilities. Getting them onboard is best accomplished with economic arguments and commitments to lower taxes and less regulations. This is the tried and true approach of the GOP but it doesn’t always form the broader coalition needed to win elections unless the urbanite dependent class sits home on election night in a funk as to why liberals didn’t deliver. This goes in cycles. The cycle is best broken with approach 3 above. But even when the cycle hits just right, this approach does not always result in a more enlightened aware voter. Many existing small businesses can be practically minded for themselves but Utopian for others. For example, a shopkeeper can understand all the conservative business values but still remark they would wish everyone would have healthcare as long as they were not obliged to pay for it.

Now surely there will be those that will criticize any ‘plan’ or ‘approach’ but the facts are that America has grown a large dependent class that votes on the left side of the political spectrum. To have any chance at restoring conservatism and states rights, there has to be a plan of attack put forward to provide an alternative to government dependency. Kicking people off the dole won’t do it. They will merely vote themselves back into it.

A ‘fundamental transformation’ as Obama expressed should be countered with the more correct ‘fundamental market awareness’ where people of the dependent class become part of the market and are trained and supported to take their place in it.


46 posted on 06/03/2014 2:49:31 AM PDT by Hostage (ARTICLE V)
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To: be-baw

This is the “Embrace the Sodomy” thought process that many are looking to impose on what used to be the normal Judeo Christian ethic. This is nothing new, it is as old as Sodom and presages the destruction of a nation.


47 posted on 06/03/2014 3:27:38 AM PDT by MSF BU (n)
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To: NKP_Vet

Go with the morals. It’s quite refreshing to hear someone say that they’ll stand or fall by their beliefs, but they won’t change them. That’s a leader.


48 posted on 06/03/2014 4:27:20 AM PDT by JudyinCanada
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To: NKP_Vet

Bump.


49 posted on 06/03/2014 4:30:37 AM PDT by Sans-Culotte (Psalm 14:1 ~ The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”)
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To: NKP_Vet

We need to direct the conversation toward the question: what does marriage mean? Cultures over time have had many different standards regarding marriage. What is our standard? Why? Each form of marriage has impacts on society. Some cultures allow polygamy and specifically *not* gay marriage, why? Marriage has to mean something or it means nothing.

We need to share some blame, it’s only because our standard of marriage has been watered down for decades which has brought forth the question of gay marriage. Casual sex ok? Easy divorce? etc.

If we are on the right side of morality then we should be able to point out the consequences of different forms of marriage. Having one man with many wives has consequences. Men having sex with men has consequences. We must have 2.1 children per couple for a society to maintain its population. We need to minimize the spread of disease while having enough children. We need to point out the CDC stats of gay men. When 2% of the population is having unprotected anal sex with the same 2% of the population then ANY bacteria or virus is going to spread like wildfire. Gay men can’t give blood, for good reason - we need to have somebody with the balls to discuss this seriously and do it in a manner that is factual and hard to argue with, obviously not out of hate.

Then state that for these reasons a society should have high standards for marriage, it is a survival issue. There is a the highest form of marriage and then everything else, the highest form being 1 man and 1 woman - and yes, without pre-marital sex, adultery and divorce. Having sex before marriage has consequences, look around at society and all the problems it causes. Having sex before you’re married brings consequences to your future spouse, call it retroactive adultery.

This pervasive attitude of “don’t judge”, often pointed out as a Christian value, is used to shut people up as a pretext for “anything goes, leave me alone, I don’t want to hear it”. This is not what Christ was saying. There’s a difference between “standing in judgement” (like stoning a woman to death for adultery) and making a “judgement” that a given behavior is wrong, because it doesn’t serve the best interests of society.

A civilization will fall when the fabric of it’s society is unwoven. Our fabric is woven with the essence of Judeo-Christian ethics, it is the basis for our success above all else. We are at war, a war for our souls. If we can’t find a way to articulate the “why” then we’ll lose.


50 posted on 06/03/2014 6:07:49 AM PDT by fuzzylogic (welfare state = sharing consequences of poor moral choices among everybody)
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