Skip to comments.Lots of Grand Canyons
Posted on 06/03/2014 8:55:53 AM PDT by fishtank
Lots of Grand Canyons
by John D. Morris, Ph.D. *
On the seminar trail, I and other ICR speakers often use Grand Canyon as an example of Flood-caused geological features. We frequently run into opposition from people whove been taught that it took millions of years for the canyon to be carved out. We counter with studies that lead us to believe that each of the pancake-like layers was rapidly deposited by catastrophic hydraulic forces, and that the igneous and metamorphic deposits were caused by events quite unlike anything we see in modern times. The continent-wide coverage of the layers clearly speaks to an unimaginably devastating flood. The rates, scales, and intensity of the forces involved dwarf those of our experience.
The carving of Grand Canyon itself was likewise due to rapid, dynamic erosion that either occurred late during the Flood as the continents rose, or soon afterward when immense volumes of water rushed back into the ocean basins. Furthermore, the strata give evidence of having still been in a soft, not-yet-fully consolidated condition at the time they were gouged out.
Additionally, the sedimentary layers, the volcanism, and the erosion must have occurred recentlyconsistent with the timescale of Scripture. The evidence indicates that the strata were deposited rapidly by Flood waters, uplifted by monumental forces later in the Flood, and eroded by retreating Flood waters before they had time to hardenall within the one-year timescale given in Genesis. ICR speakers often remark that Grand Canyon is Exhibit A for the great Flood of Noahs day, and photos taken during our many research trips and study tours into the canyons depths frequently grace our lectures.
But if the canyons cause was the runoff of waters from the Flood, and the deluge was worldwide, why dont we find many such canyons around the globe? Impressive canyons sometimes form today through natural disasters such as excessive rainfall, a dam breaking, or a tsunami event, but Grand Canyon is far bigger than these. Obviously, in any set of examples, there must always be one that is the biggest, but a fuller answer may surprise you.
Grand Canyon is unique in that erosion has exposed its remarkable stack of layers on both sides of the river, and the strata are clearly visible, not covered by vegetation. Its accessibility and stunning grandeur have earned it a place among the worlds great geological wonders. The canyons dimensions are staggering: 277 miles long, up to 19 miles wide, and one mile deep, but it is not the biggest canyon on Earth....
more at link............
ICR article images.
As outrageous as it may seem to this worlds’ best minds, when the Holy Spirit confirms to a believer in Jesus Christ that something is true, it is true indeed. Best to believe it and go with it.
Wellsboro PA home of the Pennsylvania grand canyon.
There’s a canyon on Mars that makes the Grand Canyon look like a pinprick................
Daily crank bit.
Which flood? Genesis 1:2 or Genesis 6?
You want to write a story which is intended to save souls.
You are writing this story in the time of Moses and even Abraham, in its oral form.
Does it matter if scientific details are not perfect by today’s standards? NO it does not.
The intent of Genesis is to inform us that God is our Creator.
In a time before the microscope, before we knew what DNA was, or even understood basic cell structure.
That Adam came from “dust” is entirely understandable, as “dust” was the smallest particle that the people of that time could understand.
Besides, house dust today contains dust mite poop, which comes from dust mites after they eat human skin!
That we came from mud or “humus” is interesting as well. As “humus” contains the biological remains of plants and animals alike, perhaps even MONKEYS!
In short, I think that God has a very good sense of humor and he will laugh at all of us. Neither the Creationists nor the Darwinists have this right.
It is not a litmus test of faith at all to insist that one believe in the literal account of Genesis. How long was a “day” in Biblical times? Isn’t it amazing that the different species in Genesis appear at about the same sequence as what Evolutionists would claim?
Genesis was written for a primitive people in a primitive time and it is amazing how much Evolution and Genesis correspond to each other. That is, if you have an open mind and you keep your human ego at bay. We all want to feel smarter than everyone else, don’t we?
Again, God laughs at all of us.
Yes, many Evolutionists have turned out to be scientific frauds and some are radical atheists. So what?
Evolution and Creation are not mutually exclusive. Wisdom is found in the middle, in these debates.
There are any number of articles explaining the uplift 75 mya and subsequent rifting to the west if the Colorado plateau which were the major factors in the canyon’s formation. The plateau is part of the formation of the Rocky Mountains. The dating of the various strata and explanations of the unconformaties have been explained in hundreds of articles, dissertations, etc. Again, an understanding of structural geology put the lie to the young earth proofs. These young earth, flood geology folks are making money off sincere Christians.
The very fact that we are exploiting shale oil deposits demonstrates the age of the formations and the natural geological forces that create the basins. Just the name Permian Basin gives a hint as to the ancient nature of the underlying formations.
Sigh. Don’t you think God knows how old the earth is? The Bible is His Word. If it’s the words of men, I have no use for it. If He says He created everything in 6 days, and really meant 6 zillion years, and I have to go to post-enlightenment science to figure out what He meant, I have no use for Him. Since evolutionary science has proven to be idiotic nonsense, I can trust Him.
1) Two matters containing mass cannot occupy in the same space and time.
2) Matter cannot be created or destroyed.
Genesis says that the water was 22 feet above the highest mountain tops. And then the water receded.
Setting aside deus ex machina, where did all that rain water go?
Perhaps you need to read the questions again? First question is 'which flood'? There are two floods described in the WORD, and both are described in more than one place. There were two different reasons for each of the floods. Perhaps IF the reason for the floods was investigated then the answer regarding the evidence of an ancient earth would not be such a stumbling block to the many.
How do you know all that is true?
Are you asking a sincere question? Do you believe there might be an explanation you haven’t thought of?
I’m not a geologist, but this article does elude to the answer, and the Bible fills in the rest. Water came from the sky which wasn’t on the earth, water came from underground, and the earth looked much different than it does now. You know Mt Everest is growing right? The earth may have been basically flat. When water covered it, part of the crust broke and pushed some part lower and others higher. The water went into the lower parts.
What you describe seems like the theory of plate tectonics to me.
Genesis 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew:
for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
Genesis 7: 11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
Genesis 7:24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.... (5 months)
Genesis 8, which I am not going to type says ...God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters asswaged;....
How long it took for that first flood of Genesis 1:2 to recede is explained by Peter in IIPeter 3 when Peter says verse 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing,
that one day is with the LORD as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Genesis 5: THE BOOK OF THE GENERATIONS OF ADAM.... verse 27 And all the days of Methuselah were 969 years: and he died.
Methuselah did not live in a flesh body a 'full day' with the LORD...
Genesis 6:3 And the LORD said, "My spirit (that would be the HOLY SPIRIT) shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his day shall be an hundred and twenty years".
So there was indeed a God driven and controlled 'climate change', and it had nothing to do with greenhouse gasses.
The point of my post was that it’s best just to believe God and His Word as a little child, rather than cause a young one to stumble into error over it.
I hope in Eternity to witness the manner of creation of the new heaven and new earth.
Not to quibble, but this tends to be a "progressive" meme.
Is it your position that "Wisdom is found in the middle" where the subject of debate is the morality of abortion or homosexuality?
Before, or after the sewers backed up?
God had Moses pen in His WORD, two different floods. Then God chose His holy prophets and disciples to fill in the story regarding the cause of these two different floods. Telling little children fairy tales calling it from God is the deception Christ warned that would come calling in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. That my friend 'deception' is likened to Noah's flood, except the last flood will be of lies. Also called the tribulation.
Mark 13:23 (Before one jot or tittle of the so called New Testament ever got placed upon plant fibers or stones or animal skins....)
Christ said this: But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
And Christ told us there were two floods and why.
In short, it works. Mineral and oil exploration depends on geology and, in particular, structural geology. In order to define an ore body, you have to understand the natural processes which lead to its formation. Plate tectonics provides a starting point for these definitions today but long before the general acceptance of continental drift, the idea that long periods of time were essential in the formation of geological structures. You can go back to geologic descriptions that were written 100 + years ago of ore bodies and you will see descriptions of processes that took millions of years. Porphyry ore zones were recognized very early and their localized formation and ages understood.
In all this, flood geology has no explanatory value. Certainly there have been many localized floods that have altered the surface of the land in dramatic ways. The Scablands of Eastern Washington state are one example. However these features are related to local occurrences. In Washington, melting ice caps formed massive lakes whose containment failed periodically. This produced massive floods. However, someone living in the Southwest would never have noticed them. They would be subjected to the melting of glaciers and ice caps in the Rocky Mountains which rushed down the Colorado River.
Plate tectonics and structural geology work, they answer questions, are confirmed by the existence of mountain ranges, volcanos, great rift areas and subduction zones. Satellite photos show clearly the boundaries of the ring of fire, for example. Great undersea troughs exist at the edges of tectonic plates as do volcanically active margins lining them. Mid-ocean ridges can be shown to be allowing the spread of the ocean floor.
It all works and is explanatory of what we see. Certainly, there are yet questions but that’s how real science works.
Best hypothesis regarding the flood - hydroplate theory supplants plate tectonics theory and explains much much more than any modern ‘science’ that attempts to rewrite His story.
Center for Scientific Creation - In the Beginning: Compelling Evidence for Creation and the Flood
I think the Grand Canyon is a rip caused by a physical pole shift of the planet. The wide separation of deep, sharp-edged vertical walls through multiple strata indicate a sudden, violent ripping motion, not water action.
JimSEA and evolution have no explanation for polystrate fossils either.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Heb 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
It’s not like Genesis is the only place that spoke of creation or the Flood. Christ spoke of both those things too (Mark 10:6 & Luke 17:27). And the angel preaching the everlasting Gospel in Revelation spoke of creation too:
Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
For those who are pressed for time...
Maybe a 6-part hour long video could help folks understand who have no time to read a free online book less than 500 pages.
Videos Fountains of the Deep, Flood of Noah by Pastor Kevin Lea of Port Orchard, OR
Incidentally, Pastor Kevin Lea carries quite a bit more credibility than most pastors - he obtained a degree in Nuclear Physics prior to becoming a pastor.
The multi-part video on Earthquakes is a real eye-opener too if youd like to understand where true climate change future is headed. Not that I like to be the bearer of bad news but Id rather folks be informed as much as possible.
And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
There is no hint of how much time elapsed between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. Or how long Genesis 1:2 lasted.
What we are told is by Jeremiah 4:22 For My people is foolish, they have not known ME; they are sottish (means stupid) children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.
Well this controversy over how old mother earth is, is supposedly based upon knowledge or 'theories'. But here is what God had Jeremiah pen.
23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had not light. (Moses used these same Hebrew words to describe Genesis 1:2)
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. (NOT talking about Noah's flood.)
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by His fierce anger.
The calculations of a young earth are based upon the generations of Adam not based upon the literal evidence left strewn all over God's green earth. AND ignoring Genesis 1:2 as if that was the condition God created the heavens and the earth of Genesis 1:1 is pure deception.
God has Isaiah write Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD That created the heavens; God Himself That formed the earth and made it: HE established it He created it NOT in vain (same Hebrew word as used in Genesis 1:2), He formed it to be inhabited; "I am the LORD;
and there is none else.
Those are fossils that span strata?
You would accuse me of something I never addressed. Okay, nowhere is it proclaimed that all rock strata are deposited over eons. In fact, many placed where fossils are formed are areas where strata are formed very rapidly. The collapse of a sand dune, a landslide, vulcanism with heavy ash falls are all situations where there is rapid strata formation. Take a River delta which deposits several separate layers of silt in a years time. Most shale fossil fields have numerous relatively thin strata. A tree can last through numerous flood seasons before fossilizing. The fossil tree would cut through numerous strata. A period of erosion, with the fossil being of harder material and not eroding away can result in that fossil not being in its original strata and possibly being in many strata.
Ancient river bends are a good place to find fossils and also a place where multiple strata are deposited over a short period of time. Each instance has its own story to tell. Structural geology and paleontology are your friends, use them.
Well, God did specify 6 literal days where there was morning and evening but obviously ymmv.
Also does not the Holy Word say something about their being no private interpretations of His Words?
Last, I don’t have time now -later tonight maybe - for a debate / discussion over the problems with long ages but I do refer to this list in defense of 6-10k years only b/c these are factual scientific findings not opinions, assumptions and conjectures. Worse SWAGs: scientific wild arsed guess...
101 Evidences for a Young Age of the Earth...And the Universe
Possibly you are correct in my assumption - at least regarding this thread. Thought I recalled prior discussions on FR in the last 3 months re: same but maybe it was another FR poster. Anyways the polystrate fossil pictured at creationscience.com supposedly covered millions of years yet the more they study Mt. St. Helens 1980 eruption the more they find in common with ‘long ages’ geologic traits.
Things that make me go hhhmmmmm.
Interestingly, Dr. Walt Brown PhD first published his book in 1980 [link in post #25 above]. He is a true scientist in that he relentlessly pursues truth wherever it can be found and no matter whom he may offend. His book is now in it’s 8th revision and just keeps getting better like a fine wine.
Well, ya know, that “polystrate” fossil tree HAD to have lived 100’s of millions of years...
Had to be - that’s how old the other fossils in the layers are, as dated by the rocks which are dated by the fossils in the rock layers, which are dated by...
No God did not specify 6 literal days. God had Peter clarify the methodology in which God keeps time. IIPeter 3. Even had Peter describe that heaven/earth world (age) that was. And its destruction. Christ and Paul continually referred to the katabol or the casting down - overthrow translated in the English to 'foundation of the world'.
I have not had much computer time and I may have the time later but I have other work that needs my attention.
Isaiah 14:12- and Ezekiel 28:12- happened between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2.
Ignoring the WORD is the same as private interpretation of His WORD for self serving purposes!!!!!
No need to get angry or defensive if I read you correctly...
Can’t get much more literal than numbering the days after the first day and also specifying there was evening and morning though.
I’m also well versed with 2nd Peter where I believe we are being told that Christ’s soon return would be more than the short time period most of the early believers of the way had hoped. It’s been a ‘couple of days’ now since the lamb prophecies were fulfilled and probably won’t be even 1 more ‘day’ until the lion prophecies are fulfilled by Jesus too.
We do have many of the end times season signs that are increasing in frequency and intensity like birth pains. Incidentally the only[?] type of pain that usually brings good news and pain relief.
More things to consider:
Radio-isotope dating: I am not arguing decay rates. Sure they are uniform when measured under normal conditions. But we dont have instruments to measure decay rates when these clocks are supposedly reset - extreme temperature and pressure - usually vulcanic.
Why do you think the 1980 Mt. St. Helens blind age dating tests could produce rocks over a million years old according to these tests?
Romans 3:4 ~ mean we can trust the clear and simple meaning God conveys thru scripture over each and every other source. I assure you the multiple definitions for words is a product of time and sin - when God gave us language, words had clear and simple meanings, but nowadays anybody can question the scriptures using their dictionary to introduce doubts.
Long ages and evolution has done more to shake peoples faith in Gods Word in our day. Science can never follow the scientific method when history is involved - most esp. when longer and longer historical ages are involved.
God created light before the stars sounds like an impossibility but when taken at its simplest it means the light is always older than the star it eminates from.
Also Einstein posited and proved gravitational time dilation. God says the Earth is the center of it all [I assume Universe here not solar system]. For me it makes sense that the center of the universe contains much more mass that the fringes which may in fact be expanding at or execeeding the speed of light.
I write code for a living. The cleanest code has clearly known assumptions, but the vast majority has to be implemented with many assumptions in place and most are not even identified as such. Science is much the same.
If the Earth is really millions or billions of years OLD then it means the original sin of Adam and Eve did not bring death and decay into [other critters and plants] the whole of creation - I assure you when God says his 6 day creation was good it means perfect, spotless, flawless ~ no death nor decay of any kind.
Im OK with agreeing to disagree, but Ive learned we are all on very shaky ground when anything clearly contradicts what God has said. The end times will be similar to the days before Noah entered the Ark.
Just ponder these thoughts and continue reading Gods Word. I not worried about any true believers nor the destiny but I am greatly concerned for those who currently follow and believe the father of all liars.
The discovery of very old rock within young volcanic formations is caused when the magma, on its way up, picks up already formed rock which survives without melting and reforming. Clastic rocks are quite common. The clasts picked up in the St. Helens magma flow is one example. When you look at a section of the rock, it can be obvious or, on the other hand, difficult to detect. Clastic rocks include sedimentary rocks such as conglomerate or sandstone, where the very strata is made up of rocks of varying ages.
Errors in radiometric dating can always be traced back to sampling error.
Geology is a practical science and certainly not a conspiracy to destroy religion. That’s why I say so often that it works.
Of course not.
I hold the Bible to be an authority on morals.
I do not expect the Bible to be an authority on science.
“Do not put the Lord, your God, to the test” -— Jesus said to the Devil.
That is exactly what YOU are doing when you come up with absurd literal interpretations and expect your views to prevail over logic or science.
We can not “go out and make disciples of all nations” if we promote absurd doctrine.
Opposition to evolution does not make you a good Christian or a bad Christian. The same is true of support for Evolution.
The subject is IRRELEVANT to Salvation. Completely meaningless. And yes, God laughs at us for the arguments.
My God is the God of the Universe, not just Earth. Not just our Solar System. Not just our Galaxy even.
The meaning of the word “day” is MEANINGLESS to God, Heaven and Hell and all of Creation until you tell me what Heavenly Body you are referencing. Understand?
And, I doubt that the concept of “time” has much meaning in Heaven at all.
Evolution is a lie from the devil himself.
That the Mods allow it to be posted as such reflects no credit on FR.
I think I clicked the Culture/Society button, which describes posts for:
“Discussion of health, education, welfare, drugs, abortion, environment, housing, unions, employment, social security, religion, arts, humanity, sports, and other cultural and societal issues.”
“The subject is IRRELEVANT to Salvation.”
It is relevant when BOTH kinds of creationists (old earth and new earth) are attacked by atheists. There is no good reason to ditch a faith and a conviction in a young earth.
Do you really think an atheist will love you more if you believe in an old earth?