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Ukraine's new leader stands up to Moscow over Crimea and Europe
reuters.com ^ | June 7, 2014 | Richard Balmforth

Posted on 06/07/2014 9:01:03 AM PDT by Tailgunner Joe

Ukraine's new president Petro Poroshenko said his country would never give up Crimea and would not compromise on its path towards closer ties with Europe, spelling out a defiant message to Russia in his inaugural speech on Saturday.

The 48-year-old billionaire took the oath of office before parliament, buoyed by Western support but facing a crisis in relations with Russia as a separatist uprising seethes in the east of his country.

Russia annexed the Crimean peninsula in March, weeks after street protests ousted Poroshenko's pro-Moscow predecessor Viktor Yanukovich, in a move that has provoked the deepest crisis in relations with the West since the Cold War.

"Citizens of Ukraine will never enjoy the beauty of peace unless we settle our relations with Russia. Russia occupied Crimea, which was, is, and will be, Ukrainian soil," Poroshenko said in a speech that drew a standing ovation.

(Excerpt) Read more at mobile.reuters.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Russia
KEYWORDS: crimea; petroporoshenko; putinsbuttboys; russia; ukraine
Inspired by his lunatic dreams of reuniting the EVIL EMPIRE, the psychotic mass murderer KGB Putin has begun a fratricidal war that will never end. Ukraine will never forgive Russia, and they will never stop fighting and killing the Russian terrorists which have invaded their land.

Patriotic Americans are helping Ukrainian patriots kill our common Russian enemies, and we will continue to do so. Death to Russia! Death the stupid murdering thug Putin! The war will soon come to Russia, and Putin will face the same angry mobs that overthrew his puppet in Ukraine!

1 posted on 06/07/2014 9:01:03 AM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Tailgunner Joe

Ukraine’s new president Petro Poroshenko ought be aware of what Putin did to the entire Polish gub mint a few years ago in downing a jet with the entire group on board.
Guess puttie didn’t care for their politics.


2 posted on 06/07/2014 9:06:53 AM PDT by Joe Boucher ((FUBO) obammy lied and lied and lied)
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To: Joe Boucher

Two jillionaires toe to toe now.

Well I guess someone did put his money where his mouth was.


3 posted on 06/07/2014 9:19:55 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Embrace the Lion of Judah and He will roar for you and teach you to roar too. See my page.)
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To: Joe Boucher

Not to mention the fact that it appears that Obama and Merkel are going to hang Poroshenko out to dry when it is politically convenient (such as after the midterm elections). Obama and Merkel have already sent signals that Putin can keep Crimea.


4 posted on 06/07/2014 9:21:25 AM PDT by Thunder90 (All posts soley represent my own opinion.)
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To: Joe Boucher
Bingo.
One imagines billionaire Poroshenko already had a state-of-the-art personal security team in place and now he also has the assets of his government and perhaps others. Nevertheless, the numbers are quite unfavorable for him and his “angry mob”.
One hopes he has invested in a think tank of world class strategists and operatives before he makes his first move; he is talking about an operation substantially more difficult than simply capturing and controlling a large portion of the world's s confectionery market.
5 posted on 06/07/2014 9:33:19 AM PDT by frog in a pot (The 2dA didn't grant a right - it preserved an existing right & was required to obtain ratification.)
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Inspired by his lunatic dreams of reuniting the EVIL EMPIRE, the psychotic mass murderer KGB Putin has begun a fratricidal war that will never end. Ukraine will never forgive Russia, and they will never stop fighting and killing the Russian terrorists which have invaded their land.

Patriotic Americans are helping Ukrainian patriots kill our common Russian enemies, and we will continue to do so. Death to Russia! Death the stupid murdering thug Putin! The war will soon come to Russia, and Putin will face the same angry mobs that overthrew his puppet in Ukraine.

Wow, Joe -- don't hold it in! I don't see how maintaining Russia's strategic and historic presence in Crimea – the key to the Black Sea – constitutes "reuniting the evil empire" that was the former Soviet Union. And while I have no reason to believe Vladimir Putin is a nice guy, I'm not aware of any evidence that he is either "psychotic" or a "mass murderer" either. Since the Monroe Doctrine was declared in 1823, the United States has unilaterally enforced a ban on outside colonization throughout our entire hemisphere, and we have gone to war numerous times to enforce this doctrine. If we were in Russia's shoes in February 2014, past American presidents would have already invaded and occupied the whole of Ukraine and we would now be installing a puppet government in Kiev. So by our historical standards, Putin is acting with remarkable restraint.

And why is Putin showing such restraint toward Ukraine? Not because of military opposition, because no western military defense of Ukraine is forthcoming. And not because he is a nice guy. It is because Russia does not want to occupy all of Ukraine – half of which would be hostile. Nor does Russia need to occupy Ukraine. Within its present borders and with its population's present demographic mix, Ukraine is an ungovernable basket case. Kiev cannot effectively govern much of its territory east of the Dnieper River, and is destined to hold a much smaller territory that is naturally aligned with Poland to the west. The east of Ukraine will be aligned with Moscow, securing a broader Russian land bridge to Crimea and the Black Sea. And Crimea, the historic Russian sentinel which was arbitrarily given to the Ukrainian SSR by Kruschev in 1954, will by strategic necessity remain a part of Russia.

Of course, this "best case" scenario is predicated upon the behavior of Kiev's current regime. Its only cohesive and governable territory is west of the Dnieper River and north of Crimea. If Kiev accepts that fate, it may actually survive and prosper. But if Kiev attempts to hold onto the eastern territories, it will remain paralyzed by corruption, chaos, revolution and bankruptcy. And if Kiev opts for war with Russia, Ukraine will cease to exist.

My own opinion is that the principle of Subsidiarity and Solzhenitsyn's views are right for Ukraine, and that the smaller oblasts that wish to leave have every right to leave. However, that is only my opinion because the dispute between Russia and Ukraine is none of America's business, and nothing that can happen between them can have any effect upon our national security. Therefore, this is not our fight.

6 posted on 06/07/2014 11:33:12 AM PDT by Always A Marine
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To: Thunder90
Pray to God (no matter what his name is) that it won’t happen because we will have WW3 triggered off then and ironically it will be much more bloody than WW2.
7 posted on 06/07/2014 1:56:26 PM PDT by Grzegorz 246
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To: Always A Marine
“Kiev cannot effectively govern much of its territory east of the Dnieper River”

Yes, all 5% of it.

The rest is garbage your russian wife/girlfriend/boyfriend told you. Once the mongoloid trash keeps pushing more to the west, than its asiatic boundaries defines, we will see WW3 and you will be shitting your pants, no matter what your tough guy screen name is saying. The “funny” thing about WW3 is that nukes/SU-30 etc. will not matter much, it will be more like mad max movies and your mongoloides have no upper hand in it, they will be dying like anyone else.

8 posted on 06/07/2014 2:04:44 PM PDT by Grzegorz 246
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To: Always A Marine
Putin dropped cluster bombs on innocent Georgian civilians to punish them for being America's friends and sending troops to Iraq. It wasn't collateral damage, he intentionally targeted civilian population centers. He's a mass murderer and a psychotic war criminal guilty of the ethnic cleansing of hundreds of thousands of innocent people. He will pay the ultimate price for his atrocious crimes.

The Monroe Doctrine was a ban on outside colonization, but nobody has tried to colonize Ukraine, except Putin.

Crimea is not the key to the Black Sea. The Bosporus and Dardanelles are. Putin is not keeping NATO out of the Black Sea, because he cannot do so. NATO can project power into the Black Sea whenever we choose to do so. Putin did not gain any strategic advantage by invading Crimea, in fact since he already had a military base there he did not achieve anything at all. Crimea will cost Russia much. It's only value is as a symbol of Neo-Soviet nostalgia. Which is of course why Putin had to possess it, because he is an unrepentant Chekist proud of his lifelong loyal service to the evil KGB secret police that brutalized and oppressed his own people, and now under his leadership continues their reign of terror.

It is not Ukraine which will soon cease to exist, but Russia. Russia shall be smashed into a hundred pieces. The forces of ethnic separatism that Putin has unleashed will soon tear Russia apart.

The national security of the USA depends on destroying the revanchist Neo-Soviet terrorist threat which supports all of America's enemies around the world from the Ayatollahs to Kim Jong-Un. Russia is the number one national security threat to the USA. Nobody else even comes close.

9 posted on 06/07/2014 2:10:16 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Grzegorz 246
Nice post. I trained for decades to fight the Bolsheviks, but wasted the edge on Stone Age Mohammedans that we never actually intended to defeat. The Soviets are long gone, and Russia has retreated to its own borders.

I understand that Poles are rightfully afraid of both Russia and Germany, but that's your problem to work out. NATO has outlived its mission and its days are numbered. The alliance has recently taken in a dozen Eastern European chihuahuas who bark like pit bulls, and who mistakenly believe that the West is going to wade in to back them up when they bark themselves into a fight. They haven't been told that they're on their own, and that bankrupt America is not coming this time. Find your next Pilsudski and build up your own military, because Poland is a buffer state.

10 posted on 06/07/2014 7:16:56 PM PDT by Always A Marine
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Crimea is not the key to the Black Sea. The Bosporus and Dardanelles are. Putin is not keeping NATO out of the Black Sea, because he cannot do so. NATO can project power into the Black Sea whenever we choose to do so. Putin did not gain any strategic advantage by invading Crimea, in fact since he already had a military base there he did not achieve anything at all.

The Bosporus and Dardanelles were key to NATO's defense in bottling up the Soviet fleet in the Black Sea. But if NATO wants to project offensive naval power into the Black Sea, keeping those straits open becomes NATO's liability. The Black Sea contains Russia's only warm water ports, and that makes it a strategic necessity for Moscow. There is no way that Russia will let is naval base at Sevastopol and its two protective air bases fall into hostile hands. NATO has now been caught twice with itsclandestine hands in Russia's Black Sea cookie jar, in Georgia in 2008 and Ukraine in 2014, and all we earned our naive clients was a smackdown each time. It's time to stop meddling on Russia's border and to mind our own business. This is a problem for Europe to work out.

11 posted on 06/07/2014 7:35:50 PM PDT by Always A Marine
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To: Always A Marine

So you think Russia has every right to treat it’s neighboring countries this way?


12 posted on 06/07/2014 7:39:01 PM PDT by GeronL (Vote for Conservatives not for Republicans)
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To: GeronL

Sure, everybody knows that the local strongman and his gangsters are what’s best for any people and their economy. Doesn’t history prove this?


13 posted on 06/07/2014 7:40:19 PM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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To: GeronL
So you think Russia has every right to treat it’s neighboring countries this way?

Absolutely not. But this is what happens with buffer states along the frontiers of major powers. Two sides are playing this game in Ukraine, and it was the West's recent meddling that provoked Russia's limited response. Putin would have been derelict to have done nothing after the loss of an ally to a hostile regime that threatened Russia's most important port and naval base. Is it Russia's right? No. But Russia's response was the only logical one.

14 posted on 06/07/2014 8:03:40 PM PDT by Always A Marine
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To: Always A Marine
Is it Russia's right? No. But Russia's response was the only logical one.

Quite predictable also, as evidenced by leaked State Dept. cable traffic from 2008.

15 posted on 06/07/2014 8:12:01 PM PDT by mac_truck ( Aide toi et dieu t aidera)
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To: Always A Marine
Russia's navy is indeed bottled up in the Black Sea which is exactly why it is strategically useless. NATO does not need to project power into the Black Sea, we just need to keep Russia bottled up. You also seem to forget that Bulgaria and Romania are part of NATO and have long Black Sea coastlines. Putin cannot keep NATO out of the Black Sea because NATO borders the Black Sea.

No NATO did not provoke Putin's illegal invasions of Georgia and Ukraine. That is just a dirty Russkie lie to try to justify KGB Putin's completely unprovoked Neo-Soviet imperialism.

NATO is the most powerful military force in history. No it's not going away and yes it will continue to expand into Russia's FORMER sphere of influence as Russia continues to contract and collapse. Indeed Putin's desperate flailing aggression against his neighbors is a sign of his insecurity and fear. He has only ensured that NATO will concentrate itself on its primary mission of confronting and containing the Russian terrorist rogue nation.

16 posted on 06/07/2014 8:56:04 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Tailgunner Joe
NATO membership has been inflated into worthlessness, with too many small obligees guaranteed by an ultimate obligor that is not going to pay. The United States was willing to fight in defense of Western Europe, but has no stomach for bleeding a single drop for Eastern Europe. And for the first time in our modern history, we have no money for it, either.

Who actually believes America will fight for Bulgaria, Romania, or Ukraine, or that they would be reliable allies if we did? The danger now is that NATO is no longer defensive but offensive, and that one its new chihuahuas may provoke a fight that nobody really wants.

And as for your certainty of Russia's total collapse, I'd say it already happened in the 1990s and early 2000s and that Russia is climbing back. The country I'm worried about is our own, as the only thing keeping us from economic free fall is the Petrodollar. If another currency becomes the world's new medium for oil, the US Dollar will plummet like we've never seen or dreamed. Our own future is more fragile than we think.

17 posted on 06/07/2014 10:41:32 PM PDT by Always A Marine
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To: Always A Marine

“Who actually believes America will fight for Bulgaria, Romania”

The thing is, Russia is a disgusting hyena attacking only far weaker opponents, when NATO members, there’s no risk Bulgaria or Romania will be attacked by Russia. That’s why you and your beloved mongoloids oppose NATO so much.


18 posted on 06/08/2014 5:02:36 AM PDT by Grzegorz 246
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To: Grzegorz 246
That’s why you and your beloved mongoloids oppose NATO so much.

You assume much about me, and incorrectly. But your tribalist venom for "mongoloids" as you call the Russians reveals the fractious nature of Eastern Europe and its ancient, deep seated hatreds. It also reveals why unintended wars start there so easily, and why America should avoid entangling alliances in that region.

19 posted on 06/08/2014 7:15:23 AM PDT by Always A Marine
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To: Always A Marine
I've got nothing against Mongoloids till they stay inside their own borders. The rest is Russian narration you have picked up, about evil “Russophobes” and poor, innocent Russia that has no choice but to defend herself (invading other countries). The whole concept that let's say Baltic states want war with Russia is so utterly moronic that it doesn't deserve any serious discussion. For all new member states, NATO is a purely defensive alliance, the only cases when It did become an offensive force was when jerks you guys elected decided so. Regarding “America should stay out of it”, any major Russian aggression will trigger off large scale war in Europe, which will have a significant global impact and just like in case of WW1 and WW2, America will have to become involved at some point, smart people understand that it's better to prevent wars than to step in into open conflicts. Isolationism might sound cool and that's why populistic politicians pick it up to score some points but it is totally unrealistic in case of any major global power.
20 posted on 06/08/2014 10:13:42 AM PDT by Grzegorz 246
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To: Always A Marine
And regarding Mongoloids... I am mocking Russian approach, they think Russia is some kind of mother of all Slavic nations and therefore Moscow's hegemony over other Slavic nations is somehow justified, the have been pushing forward that nonsense for centuries, Slavic unity and all of that, when in fact Muscovites have been invading other Slavs far more often than helping them in any way. That nonsense does deserve mocking especially when many of these Russian soldiers “liberating” Crimea look like great-great-...-grandsons of Gengis Khan and they send Chechen terrorists into eastern Ukraine. Russia is actually the least Slavic out of Slavic nations.

If you don't give a damn about it, you've got God given right to do so but don't tell people that Estonia is trying to provoke war with Russia because that's nonsense.

21 posted on 06/08/2014 4:07:16 PM PDT by Grzegorz 246
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To: Always A Marine
You are like those who thought the British would not fight over Belgium or Poland. Germany's threat to Europe never had anything to do with the USA but that did not keep us out of war. We won't sit out this time either. We will be right in the middle of it whether anybody likes it or not.

Fortunately Putin is not so foolhardy. He will not attack NATO because he knows a fight with NATO is a fight Russia would lose. That's why he pulled the Russian troops out of Kosovo. He could not risk starting a fight he would lose for sure. He attacked Ukraine precisely because they are not in NATO. So therefore NATO will continue to expand because other nations know that NATO membership is the only protection from Russia's unprovoked imperialist aggression.

As for your dreams of American decline and the end of the petrodollar, let's just say that rumors of America's demise are greatly exaggerated. Fracking is going to cripple Russia's energy export dependent economy. Not even Putin's good comrades Obama and the Democrats can stop the energy revolution that is coming!

History marches on, but KGB Putin and is retrograde backwards ideas are headed towards the ash heap of history where they belong.

22 posted on 06/08/2014 4:58:11 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Tailgunner Joe
This is not the same America that outproduced Germany and Japan in WWII and whose industrial output wore down the Chicoms and Norks to a standstill in Korea. This is not the same America that outproduced Soviet Russia to the point of collapse and exposed communism as a failed religion. We are a shell of our former self, still fielding the world's greatest armed forces but no longer able to afford them without printing money at an ever increasing rate. And now, after two decades of half-hearted and fruitless warfare in the middle of nowhere, we have squandered a large part of our national treasure, wasted many thousands of young lives to death and permanent disability, worn out much of our military equipment and transport, and exhausted our national will to fight. None of these things, including the last, can be conjured up again in an instant. In the fat years, America made itself the arbiter of every dispute, the guarantor of every debt, and the savior of every nation. We wrote a lot of checks that we can no longer cash -- especially if our many enemies collude to run the bank at the same time.

America's decline is not a dream, but a nightmare that should have been and might still be avoided. I agree with you about fracking our enormous oil and natural gas reserves -- the only hope for producing our way out of our otherwise hopeless debt. A sane nation would exploit such an obvious gift of Providence, but we are no longer sane. In our present delusion, worshiping the earth is more important than using its resources, and a great part of our nation believes this suicidal lie.

But that's just one symptom of the real problem, which is our national character. Resources can be used for good or evil, or not used at all. Finances can be built for decades and invested wisely or foolishly, and may be squandered in an instant. Military strength can be built and kept ready, but can also be wasted in needless wars or expanded beyond the point of affordability. History shows that all of those advantages are very transient. What destroys civilizations is the decline of character.

The America that promoted democracy around the world now punishes free speech that it deems unacceptable. The America that promoted the family as its cornerstone now promotes sexual deviancy. The America that encouraged children now promotes abortion. The America built on hard work and sacrifice now rewards idleness. The America that once enshrined Freedom has become a police state. This is not the America that we inherited.

Russia is not what concerns me today. America is what I'm truly worried about.

23 posted on 06/08/2014 6:22:47 PM PDT by Always A Marine
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To: Grzegorz 246
Slavic passions ignited WWI, and the Gallic zeal for revenge guaranteed WWII. So it has always been in Europe, stumbling from one war into another. Washington and Jefferson understood this, which is why they wisely advised against entangling alliances that might drag America into unintended wars.

As for Estonia, it is a beautiful little country that I was very familiar with in the 1990s. Nice people, too, although Soviet-era Russian colonization left them with a demographic ticking time bomb. Estonians have my best wishes, but there is no way in hell that the United States will go to war to defend a country the size of metropolitan Richmond. I don't care what the treaty says, this nation is not going to do it.

24 posted on 06/08/2014 6:52:12 PM PDT by Always A Marine
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