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[VANITY] A Different Outcome to World War II - Attention WWII Buffs
American Heritage ^ | June 8, 2014 | Self

Posted on 06/08/2014 9:06:40 AM PDT by tom h

In an old issue of American Heritage, there was a passage stating that, after the bombing of Pearl Harbor in December 1941, Hitler decided to declare war on the USA. In response, his generals recommended ceasing the offensive war against Russia, retreating to defensible lines, and taking the very reasonable military approach -- consolidating their very extensive gains in continental Europe, adding Greece and Spain to the mix, securing northern Africa, and turning the Mediterranean Sea into a "German Lake."

Hitler initially agreed to this very reasonable strategy. But within days the Soviets mounted their first winter offensive, on the outskirts of Moscow, and Hitler was so infuriated that he forgot his initial agreement and decided to continue his total war against Russia.

The rest, of course, is history. Russian bled Germany dry, the Allies invaded on D-Day 3.5 years later, and Germany lost.


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: hitler; worldwarii
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Question to the WWII buffs:

First, what additional details can you shed on this fascinating possibility? Are there any books, recent, or old, that explore this? Frankly, in my view this is a more pivotal point than the decision to resume the Russian war in 1942 and secure Stalingrad.

Second, feel free to speculate on what had happened HAD Hitler followed through on this very reasonable recommendation by his generals.

1 posted on 06/08/2014 9:06:40 AM PDT by tom h
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To: tom h

Hitler is history’s most gigantic, whining, super-pussy. I have NEVER EVER EVER ONCE read of an enemy action that did NOT infuriate him. His fag ass little panties got in a wad about 30 times a day. NO enemy action, short of capitulation, ever did anything but infuriate him. What a douche.


2 posted on 06/08/2014 9:10:42 AM PDT by Doctor 2Brains
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To: tom h

sprechen Sie Deutsch ?


3 posted on 06/08/2014 9:11:31 AM PDT by LeoWindhorse
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To: tom h

I am of the opinion that absent a significant technological breakthrough on the part of the Germans, this would not have changed the outcome of the war. Yes it might have lengthen the war by allowing the Germans more time for fortifications. But Russia would have come after Hitler and ground down and pinned down his divisions on the eastern front. Once you pick a fight with a bear, the fight aint over till the bear says it is.

Now had Hitler not invaded Russia, that could have been an entirely different story.


4 posted on 06/08/2014 9:13:40 AM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: tom h

If you get a chance, I think you would enjoy reading Fatherland, by Robert Harris


5 posted on 06/08/2014 9:15:11 AM PDT by null and void (Fascists never think they're fascists. They just think everybody should obey them.)
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To: tom h

Not much difference. After the 1st year, the germs were pretty much on the def in Russia anyway, maybe not fully dug in in def positions, but the offensive was shot. The end would have come later, maybe giving Adolph a shot at experiencing being on the wrong end of a split atom.


6 posted on 06/08/2014 9:15:23 AM PDT by Doctor 2Brains
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To: tom h

The things which almost happened but didn’t, could be seen as glimpses into how God’s overall plan deals with men’s (and demons’) sinful spirits, especially when the men are heavily bent on evil.

Hitler’s furor (and the furor of demons behind it) was caused to defeat itself, from that point of view. Of course it double-sucked for Hitler, he wrapped himself in evil then found inability to get satisfaction thereby, but it was a relative mercy for the rest of the world.


7 posted on 06/08/2014 9:15:37 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Embrace the Lion of Judah and He will roar for you and teach you to roar too. See my page.)
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To: tom h
Well, it's like that ad says….. this changes EVERYTHING

If Hitler had taken this advice, it is likely North Africa / El Alamein would have not happened the way they did. Patton and Monty would have been in N. Africa a long time.

This also guarantees that D Day would not have happened. Assuming some of the Russian front resources were deployed on the coast of France, the entire invasion would have been infinitely more difficult.

Then again, Rommel would have probably still been in North Africa, so someone else would have been in charge of setting up the coast of France defenses. Like I said, it would have changed every thing!! And certainly lengthened the war, if not changed the ulitmate outcome. And who knows what Stalin would have done to take advantage of it? We benefitted from Hitler and Stalin beating each others brains out for 2-3 years before we landed in France - how would Stalin have used Hitler and the Americans beating each others brains out first?

8 posted on 06/08/2014 9:15:45 AM PDT by C. Edmund Wright (Do NOT suffer fools gladly…and message boards are full contact arenas)
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To: LeoWindhorse

Ja, aber nicht seher gut...


9 posted on 06/08/2014 9:15:51 AM PDT by null and void (Fascists never think they're fascists. They just think everybody should obey them.)
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To: tom h

There’s a book by William Forstchen and Newt Gingrich called 1945 which had a somewhat similar alternate history. In that one Hitler is in a coma (he was in a plane wreck, around that time) in December 1941. The people in charge while he was out didn’t declare war on the U.S. and took a more rational approach on the Eastern Front. Thus the U.S. never got involved in the European war, and stuck to simply curb stomping the Japanese in short order. Europe was left a Nazi Reich with only the U.K. still free after they sued for peace.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1945_(Gingrich_and_Forstchen_novel)

It was a pretty good book, but we’ve never seen the sequel, which is annoying since it was a bit of a cliffhanger.


10 posted on 06/08/2014 9:16:36 AM PDT by drbuzzard (All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others.)
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To: HiTech RedNeck

you are right about the demonic influence…..


11 posted on 06/08/2014 9:16:37 AM PDT by C. Edmund Wright (Do NOT suffer fools gladly…and message boards are full contact arenas)
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To: taxcontrol

Too bad for him all those evil Jewish atomic physicists left Germany...


12 posted on 06/08/2014 9:17:00 AM PDT by null and void (Fascists never think they're fascists. They just think everybody should obey them.)
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To: tom h
I read something really weird about 50 years ago, I don't know if it is true or not.
According to the article, Japan sent a fleet to link up with the Italian in Ethiopia, push north against the British in Egypt, and link up with the German armies. They were recalled at the last moment and were destroyed at the Battle of Coral Sea.

Then there is the desire of Winston Churchill to invade the Balkans, push north between the German armies and Russian armies to deny Russia access to Eastern Europe.

Anyone got anything on these weird tales?

13 posted on 06/08/2014 9:17:39 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Sometimes you need more than seven rounds, Much more.)
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To: taxcontrol
I am of the opinion that absent a significant technological breakthrough on the part of the Germans, this would not have changed the outcome of the war

If you know how close Hitler came to beating us to the atomic age, you might change your opinion. There was a long shot covert op that detroyed Hitlers' hard water plant - but given more time, and more resources to guard his flank, that op would not have happened, and it's very likely that Hitler would have won the atomic race - just like he won the jet race. Had his fighter jet had another 1-2 years of competitive warfare - the battle of Britain and so on might have been reversed.

14 posted on 06/08/2014 9:18:49 AM PDT by C. Edmund Wright (Do NOT suffer fools gladly…and message boards are full contact arenas)
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To: Doctor 2Brains

Indeed, Hitler was rash, did things on impulse, like declaring war on the USA, for instance. What a dumb move.


15 posted on 06/08/2014 9:20:24 AM PDT by sasportas
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To: tom h

I happen to think the war outcome would have been totally different. Hitler’s biggest problem in 1942, when his war fortunes began to reverse, were that German troops were spread to thin. Books make lots of hay about Rommel’s Afrika Corps but it was a fairly small force. Had Rommel had another 20 divisions he truly could have invaded and taken over Egypt and the Holy Land, prevented an easy North Africa landing by the Allies. Turkey would have signed an agreement with a resurgent Germany. Once these gains were secure, Hitler would have had to secure his back along the Russian, front, to be sure, but the defensive war would have been far less debilitating than the offensive war in 1942 that lost the Sixth Army.


16 posted on 06/08/2014 9:21:06 AM PDT by tom h
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To: HiTech RedNeck
The things which almost happened but didn’t, could be seen as glimpses into how God’s overall plan deals with men’s (and demons’) sinful spirits, especially when the men are heavily bent on evil.

Yep.

Besides persuading the best physicists to "self deport" German graphite has a trace, just a whisper, of neutron absorbing boron.

The remaining racially pure Nazi physicists built graphite moderated test reactor, ran tests, and concluded that the idea was impractical...

17 posted on 06/08/2014 9:21:38 AM PDT by null and void (Fascists never think they're fascists. They just think everybody should obey them.)
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To: taxcontrol
Now had Hitler not invaded Russia, that could have been an entirely different story.

I don't think he could have not invaded Russia. The need to destroy "Jewish Bolshevism" (and "Jewish Anglo-American capitalism," for that matter) was integral to his worldview.

18 posted on 06/08/2014 9:22:33 AM PDT by untenured
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To: HiTech RedNeck
WHEN THAT MAN IS DEAD AND GONE Satan, Satan, caught up a plan Dressed as a man, Walking the Earth, and since he began The world is hell for you and me But what a heaven it will be When that man is dead and gone When that man is dead and gone Well go dancing€˜ down the street Kissing€˜ everyone we meet When that man is dead and gone... What a day to wake upon What a way to greet the dawn Some fine day the news will flash, "Satan with a small moustache Is asleep beneath the lawn" When that man is dead and gone... What a lucky day to wake upon What a happy way to greet the dawn Some fine day the news will flash, "Satan with a small moustache Is asleep beneath the lawn" When that man is dead and gone.
19 posted on 06/08/2014 9:23:53 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Sometimes you need more than seven rounds, Much more.)
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To: tom h
Stalin would have simply massed troops on the eastern borders/front and rolled across the line at a time of his choosing with a vastly superior force that couldn't be stopped.
20 posted on 06/08/2014 9:23:55 AM PDT by Chode (Stand UP and Be Counted, or line up and be numbered - *DTOM* -vvv- NO Pity for the LAZY - 86-44)
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To: tom h
There is also the issue of the Japanese non-war against the Russians. Had they followed through, as obligated under the Tripartite Pact, Russia would not have had 30 Siberian divisions to release to their front with Germany in 1942.

Or, had they attacked Siberia AFTER Stalin moved the forces, they would have made significant gains in Russia.

21 posted on 06/08/2014 9:24:04 AM PDT by tom h
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To: sasportas

EVERY time I read a WWII book, I find something that is as sure as the sun rising in the East (a prisoner escape) that “infuriates” pussy boy, making him do something terrible. Just finished a book on the Great Escape. Sure enough, pussy boy was so “infuriated” by escaping prisoners (did he realize the WORLD was at WAR because of him, and prisoners occasionally escape?) that he ordered the gestapo to murder 50 of the escapees. What a douche fag.


22 posted on 06/08/2014 9:24:57 AM PDT by Doctor 2Brains
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

The devil has more puppets than Hitler. Some of these will choose to be pulled free of their puppet master.


23 posted on 06/08/2014 9:25:16 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Embrace the Lion of Judah and He will roar for you and teach you to roar too. See my page.)
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To: tom h

Any serious student of WWII understands that if any of at least a hundred events or decisions by Axis leaders that could have EASILY gone the other way had in fact gone the other way, the Allies would not have won the war.


24 posted on 06/08/2014 9:25:28 AM PDT by catnipman (Cat Nipman: Vote Republican in 2012 and only be called racist one more time!)
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To: C. Edmund Wright

Hitler lost BARBAROSSA before the first shot was fired.

Even assuming that German tactical virtuosity can make up for the practical genius of the Russian T-34 platform, they began to run short of supplies in mid-July near Smolensk. The Cauldron Battles were wearing down men and equipment and using up machine parts and vast quantities of oil.

Critically, Hitler and Goering had mad the decision to keep producing consumer goods during the Wehrmacht’s greatest roll of the dice. They paid for it before Moscow.


25 posted on 06/08/2014 9:27:48 AM PDT by section9
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To: LeoWindhorse
Mein Deutsch ist krank...
26 posted on 06/08/2014 9:28:02 AM PDT by Chode (Stand UP and Be Counted, or line up and be numbered - *DTOM* -vvv- NO Pity for the LAZY - 86-44)
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To: Doctor 2Brains

This factor perhaps contributes to explaining why the gratuitous concentration camp cruelty. The devil has a particular rage at people of scriptural faiths (Jewish and Christian) which made it worse towards them too.

The countries under Nazi domination were in the grip of a mad man energized by mad demons (not as though there was any other kind of demon).


27 posted on 06/08/2014 9:29:27 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Embrace the Lion of Judah and He will roar for you and teach you to roar too. See my page.)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

WHAT HAPPENED!

WHEN THAT MAN IS DEAD AND GONE

Satan, Satan, thought up a plan
Dressed as a man
Walking the earth and since he began
The world is hell for you and me
But what a heaven it will be

When that man is dead and gone
When that man is dead and gone
When they lay him twelve feet deep
I’ll be there to laugh, not weep
When that man is dead and gone

What a day to wake up on
What a way to greet the dawn
Satan’ll take him by the hand
To meet old Gerring, look what, man
When that man is dead and gone
When that man is dead and gone

Some fine day the news’ll flash
Satan with a small moustache
Is asleep beneath the lawn
When that man is dead and gone

What a day to wake up on
What a way to greet the dawn
When a certain man is dead and gone


28 posted on 06/08/2014 9:29:32 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Sometimes you need more than seven rounds, Much more.)
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To: Chode

Und scheiss...

Ist das richting, Ich wonder?


29 posted on 06/08/2014 9:30:12 AM PDT by Doctor 2Brains
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To: tom h

There were many proponents to a defensive strategy in Russia within the High Command, most notably Guderian.

He advocated withdrawing behind, and fortifying a line along the Dnieper River, to Narva. This would have preserved the forces, and supply.

His “Mobile Reserve” strategy would have put the Armored Divisions in the East on rail cars, ready to move to wherever a threat presented itself, while the Mech Divisions would be the local reserve, holding any breakthrough until the heavier divisions arrived.

Hitler rejected it. There was just too much pressure to secure the oil in the Caucuses, and the nickel/iron/coal in the Russian Southwest (Rostov to Donetsk). Speer and the Industrialists pushed hard for this.

Had Guderian’s plan been followed, it may have preserved significant forces, because Stalingrad and Kursk wouldn’t have happened. The 1943 Italian campaign could have turned out very differently, had two more Air fleets, and several Mech/Armored divisions been available.

Could it have changed to eventual outcome of the war? Probably not, as resources were always the Achilles heel of Germany. But it could have kept the Finns in the game a lot longer, and extended the war until more nukes were ready.

Hitler would have been dead in another 12-18 months anyway, if reports of his health are to be believed. What would be the end result after that is anybody’s guess.


30 posted on 06/08/2014 9:31:48 AM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
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To: tom h; All
As far as I know, Hitler never listened to anything his generals said..

There's also a problem with the idea of a "defensible line" in Russia. The original grand strategy behind Barbarossa envisioned a defensive line stretching from Archangel in the Artic down to Azerbaijan in the Caucusus..the so-called "A-A" line. This assumed that the major Soviet cities..from Murmansk, to Leningrad, Moscow, down to Stalingrad..would be conquered. They envisioned large armored forces, backed by the Luftwaffe..patrolling the vast Russian interior. I've read a synopsis of the plan..it's fascinating to see the German mind at work..but it wasn't realistic.

Slightly off topic, but for those who enjoy alternative history, I stumbled across a fascinated novel.."Dominion" by C.J. Sansom. It's set in England in 1952, 10 years after Chamberlin agreed to an armistice with Hitler. The Fascists run the government, Oswald Mosley's a big deal...and Churchill's the leader of the rebellion. A good read..worth looking for.

Probably, IMO, the first, and actually the best alternative history was by CS Forester..best known for the Horatio Hornblower saga. He wrote several volumes of short stories exploring what if Hitler had succeeded in invading England

31 posted on 06/08/2014 9:32:59 AM PDT by ken5050 ("One useless man is a shame, two are a law firm, three or more are a Congress".. John Adams)
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To: Doctor 2Brains
NO enemy action, short of capitulation, ever did anything but infuriate him.

Conquering France will do that to you.

32 posted on 06/08/2014 9:33:45 AM PDT by ConservaTexan (February 6, 1911)
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To: sasportas

I think it was his dumbest move, other than invading the USSR when he did. He lost all opportunity to consolidate his gains and the chance to defeat the UK at the same time. If we’d gone after the Japs first, he would have had years to prep for dealing with us. He probably wouldn’t have had to.


33 posted on 06/08/2014 9:34:03 AM PDT by 22202NOVA (<Insert pithy, sardonic comment here.>)
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To: section9
Hitler lost BARBAROSSA before the first shot was fired.

Probably so - and by doing so, he lost the entire war before the first eastern front shot was fired. And I think it's pretty clear some in the German High Command knew it too. In his demonic arrogance, Hitler had no respect for the Russian army. He should have known that they could churn out zillions of those crude ugly lo tech T-34's and over whelm him with pure numbers.

34 posted on 06/08/2014 9:34:06 AM PDT by C. Edmund Wright (Do NOT suffer fools gladly…and message boards are full contact arenas)
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To: C. Edmund Wright

“If Hitler had taken this advice, it is likely North Africa / El Alamein would have not happened the way they did. Patton and Monty would have been in N. Africa a long time.”

Africa would have likely fallen anyway, given that Italy/Germany didn’t have the resources to keep it properly supplied. Once the Allies started concentrating on the African supply routes, the fate of Africa to the Axis was sealed.


35 posted on 06/08/2014 9:35:49 AM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

Churchill had a more realistic understanding of Stalin and communism. He went off on other initiatives especially concerning returning refugees to Russian control. Many of the ones we returned were shot on arrival or soon after. Churchill appreciated the threat Russia represented.


36 posted on 06/08/2014 9:36:24 AM PDT by meatloaf (Impeach Obama. That's my New Year's resolution.)
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To: sasportas

Actually, it was neither dumb nor rash. A gamble, yes, but not dumb.

Americans had already been shipping millions of tons of supplies to the UK under Lend Lease. By declaring war on the USA, Hitler’s sub captains could now send that materiel to the bottom of the sea. His U-boat captains had been begging for that approval for a year.

Hitler also calculated that, because of the attack on Pearl Harbor, the USA would focus 90% of its war on Japan and only a small fraction on Europe, beyond just the provision of supplies. In that calculation he was wrong. 90% of the US war effort was centered on Europe. The alliance among the English-speaking peoples was too strong. Roosevelt decided that saving England and Europe took priority over saving the peoples in the South Pacific, Southeast Asia, and China. About the only serious concern in the Pacific Theater was protecting Australia — which was not peopled by Asians but Caucasians.


37 posted on 06/08/2014 9:36:57 AM PDT by tom h
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To: tcrlaf
You posted just before mine at #31..

Good comments, thanks for the insight..

38 posted on 06/08/2014 9:37:34 AM PDT by ken5050 ("One useless man is a shame, two are a law firm, three or more are a Congress".. John Adams)
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To: tom h

The best alternative fiction was the movie, “It Happened Here”, made on a shoestring budget, it did a good job of looking at what a Nazi occupation of England would have been like.


39 posted on 06/08/2014 9:39:11 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: C. Edmund Wright

Except the Nazis were completely overwhelming the Soviet Army as they had achieved complete surprise. With the population of Ukraine, in particular, getting behind the Nazis as a liberating force rather than an invading one (until the Nazis started doing their whole Nazi thing), they could’ve had a chance.

Not sure what the logistics situation would’ve looked like if Nazis hadn’t relied on Soviet rail or had been free of the Ukrainian sabotage in the rear. There’s also the question of what the war would have looked like if Hitler had ceded Stalingrad and focused on more important strategic matters.


40 posted on 06/08/2014 9:39:46 AM PDT by Future Snake Eater (CrossFit.com)
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To: C. Edmund Wright
how would Stalin have used Hitler and the Americans beating each others brains out first?

Very astute question. Given Stalin's maniacal tendencies, the "what ifs" seem boundless.

41 posted on 06/08/2014 9:40:36 AM PDT by Jagdgewehr (It will take blood.)
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To: tom h

Consistent with your scenario, Admiral Rader advocated that Germany seize Gibraltar, the Med and North Africa, and Egypt, then extend their forces down the east coast of Africa and interdict the flows of Mid East oil and Allied supplies to Russia, and sever England’s lines of communication with India. This would have accrued substantial gains for Germany and Japan, potentially to the point of knocking Russia out of the war. If so, Germany’s position as supreme in Europe would have been secure.


42 posted on 06/08/2014 9:41:12 AM PDT by Rockingham
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To: ken5050
Interesting consideration. Prior to the invasion in June 1941, Stalin was speculating as to what Hitler's expectations were in Soviet Russia openly with the Politboro. Based on Mein Kampf, they suspected it was the Ukraine, the Pripet Marshes, and the Baltic States, which would allow for German domination of the Baltic Sea.

A tome I read about Stalingrad said that Stalin, in a weak moment within the first 60 days of the invasion, was willing to concede these in a peace treaty if Hitler would stop the offensive. It was the Bulgarian Ambassador who assured Stalin, that, ultimately, Russia would prevail, if they just had the willpower, in a war of attrition.

43 posted on 06/08/2014 9:41:54 AM PDT by tom h
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To: C. Edmund Wright

It is because of how close he came to winning the atomic race that I put that reservation into the mix. Had Hitler not attacked the Russians at all, he would have likely won at El Alamein. This would have been a very serious blow as it would have solidified much of North Africa and supplies of Oil for Germany / Italy. The cascade effect would have been to deny the Allies a launching point into Italy.

Further, it was Stalin who kept pressuring to open up a second front on German. Had that not been in play, it would have taken at least another year before the Allies would have had the strength to push into Western Europe. Thus giving more time for the development of any number of technical advances including bombers that could strike the US (Amerika bomber program).

Had Hitler pulled off a Doolittle type raid and been able to strike at the docks of Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore, etc. I suspect that even if only minor damage occurred, the US would have pulled back some of it’s support for England to shore up defenses in the US. If the damage had been significant, it could have knocked the US out of supporting England for a good 6 months.

Had this happened, I’m sure that England would have had a second blitz and possibly even had to repel a ground attack by Germany. Significant damage would have far more likely had the atomic bomb been completed by the Germans first.


44 posted on 06/08/2014 9:42:03 AM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: tcrlaf

Seems like you are analyzing in a vacuum. Without the eastern front war, all those tanks, all those men, all those artillery pieces and planes that the Russians destroyed…..would have been available for North Africa / France / etc.

Moreover, the Generals who lost faith in Hitler due to his Russia decision, would not have done so. AND, this would have extended the war, and Hitler might have gotten the bomb before we did. That could have been game, set, match.

In War, something delayed is something CHANGED, period.


45 posted on 06/08/2014 9:43:15 AM PDT by C. Edmund Wright (Do NOT suffer fools gladly…and message boards are full contact arenas)
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To: Doctor 2Brains
ya, und scheiss, aber meh krank... my Deutsch IS pretty sick and it's been a looong time

but i can still order beer and get my face slapped

46 posted on 06/08/2014 9:44:19 AM PDT by Chode (Stand UP and Be Counted, or line up and be numbered - *DTOM* -vvv- NO Pity for the LAZY - 86-44)
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To: Rockingham
That's the fascinating point. Had Hitler secured Europe, first and foremost, there might have been NO D-Day. He might have had to retreat hundreds of miles in Russia in an effort at reconciliation, keeping only the Baltic States and part of the Ukraine. But he would not have bled his troops dry on the Russian front.

But he didn't. As he said in Mein Kampf, international Jewry and Bolshevism were his mortal enemies, not the Anglo Saxons. So he continued prosecuting the war on Russia to the demise of his nation.

47 posted on 06/08/2014 9:44:45 AM PDT by tom h
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To: taxcontrol

All of that’s true - and all of that would have forced us to do things differently. We might have never seen the demotions of Patton and McAurthur. The USS North Carolina, the first warship produced post Pearl, might have gone east instead of west.

Whole different ballgame…..anyway you shake it out.


48 posted on 06/08/2014 9:45:54 AM PDT by C. Edmund Wright (Do NOT suffer fools gladly…and message boards are full contact arenas)
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To: Future Snake Eater

(until the Nazis started doing their whole Nazi thing)

Very true, and very humorously said!


49 posted on 06/08/2014 9:46:24 AM PDT by Doctor 2Brains
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To: null and void

That’s fascinating if such minute quantities of boron are enough to actually kill a reaction. Aryans aren’t either particularly stupid or particularly bright, but it’s notable that the scholasticism of science has featured a lot of Jewish people. Jews are a bookish people by faith. From partial Jewish background I can vouch that Jews are some of both the brightest and most stubborn people in this world.


50 posted on 06/08/2014 9:47:53 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Embrace the Lion of Judah and He will roar for you and teach you to roar too. See my page.)
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