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Armed, dangerous and dead
Milwaukee J-S ^ | 12 june 2014 | Kathleen Parker

Posted on 06/12/2014 5:39:46 AM PDT by rellimpank

So much for the argument that having more people armed in public places will result in fewer gun deaths.

One of the three killed recently by a Las Vegas couple, Jerad and Amanda Miller, was an armed civilian, Joseph Wilcox. Two police officers who were killed, Igor Soldo and Alyn Beck, were ambushed while having lunch. Seated in a booth, they had no chance to defend themselves, according to witnesses.

Wilcox, 31, was inside a Walmart when the Millers entered firing and ordering everyone to evacuate. Wilcox, who carried a gun, decided to confront the shooter, apparently unaware that Amanda was with Jerad. After he walked past her on his approach toward Jerad, Amanda fatally shot him.

During an ensuing gunfight with police, Amanda turned her gun on herself after Jerad was fatally shot. Whether they might have killed others had Wilcox not stepped forward — a decidedly brave if ill-advised act — we can't know. What we do know is that a civilian, perhaps emboldened to heroism because he had a gun, is dead.

Even as we honor Wilcox appropriately, his death should give pause to any who insist that having more armed citizens is the best defense against a would-be killer. Even if one person were to stop a killer in his tracks, it is not logical to extrapolate the occasional success story as proof of the argument.

It also may be unfair to extrapolate that one failure means that having guns in civilian pockets can't ever be helpful. Having an experienced, well-trained person armed with a gun in the right place at the right time might well thwart a slaughter, though inarguably, not everyone with a permit to carry meets those qualifications.

(Excerpt) Read more at jsonline.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: banglist; banglsit; rkba
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--mostly the usual drivel from the left--
1 posted on 06/12/2014 5:39:47 AM PDT by rellimpank
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To: rellimpank

Idiots,

Satan walks among us, but being armed is not evil, its just common sense.


2 posted on 06/12/2014 5:43:53 AM PDT by mylife
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To: rellimpank

One data point is no “proof”. Real researchers like John Lott (”More Guns, Less Crime”) collate hundreds of contrary incidents into real statistics.


3 posted on 06/12/2014 5:44:11 AM PDT by jiggyboy
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To: rellimpank

So the exception, rules, in the world of the MSM


4 posted on 06/12/2014 5:44:53 AM PDT by Vaquero (Don't pick a fight with an old guy. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.)
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To: rellimpank

This is just one story, leave it at that.


5 posted on 06/12/2014 5:44:54 AM PDT by BeadCounter
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To: rellimpank

Hey, every now and then the perp wins... but I still know which way I’m going to bet.


6 posted on 06/12/2014 5:45:02 AM PDT by Oberon (John 12:5-6)
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Idiot Liberal,

It was a matter of his timing.

Had he known, he could have shot them both.


7 posted on 06/12/2014 5:45:23 AM PDT by ROCKLOBSTER (June IS "Republicans Freed the Slaves" Month.)
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To: rellimpank
So the fact that his armed status stopped them in their tracks and purchased his fellow shoppers precious life-saving seconds doesn't matter apparently.

They had to waste their killing time monitoring and ambushing him, which they never would have bothered to do if he had been as automatically helpless as the rest.

Because of that delay, they were trapped in a building they could not escape from and died before they could kill anyone else.

One brave armed citizen probably saved several lives that day, while sacrificing his own.

Kathleen Parker is disgusting scum.

8 posted on 06/12/2014 5:45:45 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: rellimpank

I can see Kathleen Parker is a mental giant. Maybe she should be in charge of us?


9 posted on 06/12/2014 5:45:57 AM PDT by Future Snake Eater (CrossFit.com)
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To: rellimpank
It also may be unfair to extrapolate that one failure means that having guns in civilian pockets can't ever be helpful.

Ah, I see. The tired dodge of pretending that this is the first time something like this has ever happened, with a dash of false-choice fallacy.

10 posted on 06/12/2014 5:46:18 AM PDT by jiggyboy
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To: rellimpank

11 posted on 06/12/2014 5:46:33 AM PDT by JPG (Yes We Can morphs into Make It Hurt.)
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To: Oberon
Read my post 8.

I think the perp lost, thanks to him.

12 posted on 06/12/2014 5:46:35 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: rellimpank
During an ensuing gunfight with police, Amanda turned her gun on herself after Jerad was fatally shot. Whether they might have killed others had Wilcox not stepped forward — a decidedly brave if ill-advised act — we can't know. What we do know is that a civilian, perhaps emboldened to heroism because he had a gun, is dead.

And then the next two sentences she tries to back peddle.

Kathleen Parker, you are a Bucking Fitch.

This has the attitude of "Just lock yourself in a room and wait for the police."

13 posted on 06/12/2014 5:48:18 AM PDT by KC_Lion (Build the America you want to live in at your address, and keep looking up.- Sarah Palin)
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To: rellimpank
They've found AN incident. One lousy incident. Change the Law of the Land over ONE incident. Gotta love those libs.
14 posted on 06/12/2014 5:50:22 AM PDT by Vinnie
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To: rellimpank
Can't judge Musloids by the actions of a few, but you are free to judge everybody else that way.
15 posted on 06/12/2014 5:50:22 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum ("The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government." --Tacitus)
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To: rellimpank

Hey Kathy!

Do you suppose banning rocks would have saved Able from Cain?

Being armed increases your chance of survival, NOTHING guarantees your survival.


16 posted on 06/12/2014 5:50:46 AM PDT by G Larry (Which of Obama's policies do you think I'd support if he were white?)
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To: jiggyboy
Paris Ainsworth, shot 4 times and still managed to return fire hitting 2 of 3 assailants (one of them twice)

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

The murder rate in Detroit is down between 25% and 30% from last year because of armed citizens and a police chief who supports them.
17 posted on 06/12/2014 5:52:51 AM PDT by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin.)
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To: G Larry

Snort!!!! dead on! LOL


18 posted on 06/12/2014 5:55:23 AM PDT by mylife
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To: rellimpank

I’m pretty sure that everyone can find at least one example of someone who’s fradulently gaming one of the government entitlement programs (SSI, Welfare, etc.) Therefore, by the logic of this article, that proves that entitlement programs are only used by those trying to game the system and should be eliminated. I’m sure that argument would fly just as well with the lefty who wrote this crap!


19 posted on 06/12/2014 5:56:34 AM PDT by stremba
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To: rellimpank

The author’s premise is false. The CC holder was not well trained or otherwise ignored the training he recieved.

Do not produce a weapon until you understand the situation. When you produce the weapon, act immediately to neutralize the aggressor. If these rules had been followed, at least one of the aggressors would have been neutralized, if not both.

With that said, the perps had already slaughtered two officers of the law, it is obvious that they were ready to kill and if the CC holder did everything correctly, he still may not have survived the encounter.

Regardless of the situation, this is not a valid argument against CC. A citizen tried to do the right thing and was not successful. It is not correct to state this is a reason not to let citizens be prepared.


20 posted on 06/12/2014 5:57:22 AM PDT by dangerdoc
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To: rellimpank

Ah, Kathleen Parker...

I remember when she had columns on Townhall.com.
Then Obama got elected and she lost her f-ing mind.
It was seemed almost overnight. It was truly sickening how she bought into his schtick hook, line and sinker. She planted her lips firmly on his backside and has never taken them off.
Honestly, I’m surprised she can see to type.


21 posted on 06/12/2014 5:58:27 AM PDT by servo1969
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To: rellimpank

The shething wrote:

“Even if one person were to stop a killer in his tracks, it is not logical to extrapolate the occasional success story as proof of the argument.”

Libs live in upside down mentality. They are extreme hypocrites. They are actually, truly stupid, unable to see themselves making fools of themselves. Liberalism really is a mental disorder, deserving of psychotherapy.


22 posted on 06/12/2014 5:59:43 AM PDT by polymuser
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To: JPG

LOL!


23 posted on 06/12/2014 6:01:37 AM PDT by carriage_hill (Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading.)
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To: rellimpank
Whether they might have killed others had Wilcox not stepped forward — a decidedly brave if ill-advised act — we can't know.

Yes we do. Wilcox saved countless lives.

24 posted on 06/12/2014 6:02:53 AM PDT by Bubba_Leroy (The Obamanation Continues)
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To: rellimpank

Kathleen can’t wrap her liberal mind around real acts of heroism. They are all for causes as long as someone else does the dirty work. In her mind supporting gun control is as brave as confronting an armed nut job. That is why the Muslim extremists are their kindred spirits. The most fervent supporters of terrorism say God is great but someone else should strap on the suicide belt.


25 posted on 06/12/2014 6:03:07 AM PDT by shoff (Vote Democratic it beats thinking!)
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To: rellimpank

Kathleen Parker really is an ignoramus, isn’t she? Exceptions are found everywhere....one is tempted to believe she had this drivel already composed, ready for release whenever a case like this happened.

Too bad for her that the main principle REMAINED TRUE EVEN IN THIS CASE! To wit: the male perp was stopped by a PERSON WITH A GUN...a cop shot him.


26 posted on 06/12/2014 6:03:11 AM PDT by SoFloFreeper
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To: rellimpank
By Ms. Parker's logic there is no reason for police officers to be armed, because after all being armed didn't help either of the police officers either. The fact that Mr. Wilcox was also killed trying to stop the people who murdered the police officers says no more about the benefit to society of carrying a firearm than does the loss of the equally armed police officers.

Mr. Wilcox should be honored for his efforts, his bravery may have saved many other lives.

Ms. Parker, by contrast, should be ridiculed for her idiocy.

27 posted on 06/12/2014 6:03:46 AM PDT by freeandfreezing
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To: dangerdoc

The “training” argument is a poor one anyway. How many times have we seen articles of cops shooting fifty or even more than a hundred bullets at one guy, hitting or killing others and causing thousands of dollars of property damage as well.

The picture of that swiss-cheesed blue pick-up truck of the Christopher Dorner manhunt suddenly comes to mind as well. “Training” indeed.


28 posted on 06/12/2014 6:05:51 AM PDT by jiggyboy
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To: rellimpank
Even as we honor Wilcox appropriately, his death should give pause to any who insist that having more armed citizens is the best defense against a would-be killer.

Without the bravery of this one armed man, the list of dead would be much higher. Prayers for the family of Wilcox and his loved ones. He was an NRA soldier in the war against evil...

29 posted on 06/12/2014 6:05:54 AM PDT by GOPJ (#2 reply spot RESERVED for Tokyo Rose comments: "nothing works - give up - it's all hopeless".)
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To: rellimpank
Even if one person were to stop a killer in his tracks, it is not logical to extrapolate the occasional success story as proof of the argument.

But if one fails to stop the killer, it's proof of the counter argument.

Way to go, Socrates.

30 posted on 06/12/2014 6:05:54 AM PDT by dead (I've got my eye out for Mullah Omar.)
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To: rellimpank

I wonder how much differently this would be reported if the CCL holder had instead been an off duty LEO.


31 posted on 06/12/2014 6:07:21 AM PDT by CrazyIvan (I lost my phased plasma rifle in a tragic hovercraft accident.)
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To: rellimpank

Who shot Jerad? The article doesn’t tell us. It only says that he was fatally shot.


32 posted on 06/12/2014 6:07:32 AM PDT by MulberryDraw (Repeal it.)
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To: Oberon

The perp wins when they know who to target first. While I am an ardent open carry supporter, I also believe concealed carry is as much of a right as Constitutional carry.

In the old West, only criminals carried concealed. It was considered ungentlemanly to carry concealed. Only rogues did so. Nowadays, with so many cowards and criminals among us, carrying concealed is the only way to ensure a “fair” fight with a bad guy. Beat them at their own game.


33 posted on 06/12/2014 6:08:25 AM PDT by rarestia (It's time to water the Tree of Liberty.)
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To: servo1969
A couple of weeks ago K. Porker did write a column criticizing obama but I see she is still a flaming lib. I suspected that she had not changed into a Conservative but discovered that obama was no longer liberal enough for her.
34 posted on 06/12/2014 6:10:35 AM PDT by Ditter
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To: rellimpank
Kathleen Parker was the "conservative" half of a CNN show with Eliot Spitzer. I'm just so glad, she knows what she's talking about. She complains about using an anecdote to support the idea that more armed law-abiding people reduce the amount killing. Then she uses the anecdote about this pair killing armed law-abiding citizen that this ends the argument for increasing the number of armed citizens on the streets.

Obviously, Kathleen Parker, elitist moron, never studied the issue, never read the data collected by John Lott in his book, "More guns, less crime". I'm pleased as punch, that Kathleen has deigned to inform us, the unworthy great unwashed about her genius ideas coming out the top of her head. Fabulous.

35 posted on 06/12/2014 6:11:40 AM PDT by Jabba the Nutt (You can have a free country or government schools. Choose one.)
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To: rellimpank

The cops killed were trained professionals with guns and they are dead.

This journalist is a dope.


36 posted on 06/12/2014 6:13:59 AM PDT by Blue Collar Christian (this time)
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To: wideawake
All your points are dead on.

Kathleen Parker is disgusting scum.

When I saw that name, it taught me a new distinction between liberals and conservatives in the media.

When liberals post-Gore want a left/right format on a program, they team a doctrinaire liberal (e.g. Spitzer) with a mushy moderate (Parker or Jennifer Rubin.) When NPR has their round table, the rightists are represented they usually have mushy faux-Republican guys like David Frum or David Brooks. (Frum isn't even a moderate)

When conservatives schedule such a left-right thing, we want a fire-breathing lefty on the air, either a James Carville fire-breather, or a Paul Begalia. That is, someone who never turns on his own, and can describe his position with force and clarity (to the degree that it can be clear.)

In short, we are not afraid of the left making its case. The left is extremely unwilling, perhaps afraid, of true conservatives given access to make their case, even with a lefty there to "correct" or rebut.
37 posted on 06/12/2014 6:14:18 AM PDT by Dr. Sivana ("If you’re litigating against nuns, you’ve probably done something wrong."-Ted Cruz)
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To: rellimpank

Because one, lonely example is sufficient to indicate that armed citizens are of no value when the bad guys show up, right? (/s)


38 posted on 06/12/2014 6:15:07 AM PDT by NEMDF
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To: rellimpank

Several electric cars have caught fire.

I guess we just ban them all.

Logic: She has none.


39 posted on 06/12/2014 6:20:30 AM PDT by Noamie
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To: rellimpank

Heroic people sometimes die. They are remembered. The wimps are soon forgotten.


40 posted on 06/12/2014 6:21:04 AM PDT by allendale
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To: wideawake

In this case the Millers ordered the shoppers out and did not fire on them - they wanted to have a final show down with police, not fellow citizens.

Of course the man who tried to stop them could not have known this and did the right thing as best he could. He endangered no one but himself, and he would have done better to have looked for any other armed attackers and to have shot Miller immediately, but again, he was trying to do right and give Miller a chance to stop without injury.


41 posted on 06/12/2014 6:22:10 AM PDT by heartwood
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To: rellimpank
Wilcox, who carried a gun, decided to confront the shooter, apparently unaware that Amanda was with Jerad. After he walked past her on his approach toward Jerad, Amanda fatally shot him.

Wilcox failed to completely assess the tactical situation. Anyone could have made the same mistake, but Wilcox's actions delayed the shooters, which may well have saved lives. When they shot him, everyone else in the place was made aware of the threat.

There is no guarantee that getting involved in a situation will have a happy ending for the person who gets involved. There is personal risk, and a very real danger of injury or death as a result.

That willingness to confront, to embrace that risk and still do what needs to be done is what separates the sheepdogs from the sheep.

To treat the actions of Mr. Wilcox as less than heroic is to diminish the courage it took to confront the shooters, and a serious disservice to Mr. Wilcox's memory.

42 posted on 06/12/2014 6:24:35 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing.)
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To: dangerdoc
 Liberals are actually gloating that this CCW hero was shot. As if he deserved it.

 

Joseph Robert Wilcox was a good guy with a gun. On Sunday, it cost him his life
source: gawker.com   |   share: Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
(727)
 

 

43 posted on 06/12/2014 6:26:05 AM PDT by Responsibility2nd (NO LIBS. This Means Liberals and (L)libertarians! Same Thing. NO LIBS!!)
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To: MulberryDraw

Jerad Miller was shot by his wife, Amanda.

Amanda Miller also shot Joseph Wilcox. He went to confront Jerad Miller when Amanda shot him. Wilcox did not know she was with Jerad....she was pushing a shopping cart at the time and blended in with the other shoppers.


44 posted on 06/12/2014 6:26:21 AM PDT by Girlene (Hey NSA!)
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To: rellimpank

So was the person shot and killed by the bandits a man or woman? Media can’t even get genders straight.


45 posted on 06/12/2014 6:33:52 AM PDT by Lion Den Dan
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To: rellimpank
Good old Kathleen Parker - mouthpiece of the feckless left. I have a suggestion for you Kate - leave the guns alone. Steer clear of them. You're obviously not smart enough to be around one.
46 posted on 06/12/2014 6:39:41 AM PDT by rockrr (Everything is different now...)
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To: dangerdoc

Training!

Many years back I trained under a guy who was not just a master of his discipline but also a credentialed scholar of close quarters combat.He wrote long and boring papers on the subject.

His premise was, TSHTF at BEST you only react 50% of trained response.
Hardcore years of work; 50% is still quite a bit.
A few hours for a quickie CC class; not so much.


47 posted on 06/12/2014 6:47:07 AM PDT by DUMBGRUNT
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To: Vaquero
So the exception, rules, in the world of the MSM

Except when talking about Global Warming, or Climate Change, or Climate "Disruption." When the exceptions overwhelm their agenda, they simply rename it and repeat the same old arguments.

48 posted on 06/12/2014 7:04:11 AM PDT by immadashell (The inmates are running the asylum.)
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To: rellimpank

Stupid-assed liberals.

How many lives did that armed civilian save before he gave his own? Likely quite a few.

But we mustn’t have THAT as part of the narrative, can we?


49 posted on 06/12/2014 7:10:20 AM PDT by ScottinVA (Obama is so far in over his head, even his ears are beneath the water level.)
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To: GOPJ
Without the bravery of this one armed man, the list of dead would be much higher...

In this case, when seconds counted, the police were dead.

50 posted on 06/12/2014 7:17:06 AM PDT by immadashell (The inmates are running the asylum.)
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