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Gay marriage: Top US Presbyterian Council Approves Same-Sex Weddings
Guardian (UK) ^ | June 19, 2014

Posted on 06/19/2014 6:49:42 PM PDT by Steelfish

Gay marriage: Top US Presbyterian Council Approves Same-Sex Weddings Substantial majority on national assembly votes to recognise unions of 'two people' and let ministers hold ceremonies

19 June 2014

The top legislative body of the Presbyterian church in the US has voted by a large margin to recognize same-sex marriage as Christian in the church constitution, adding language that marriage can be the union of "two people," not just "a man and a woman".

The amendment approved by the Presbyterian General Assembly requires approval from a majority of the 172 regional presbyteries, which will vote on the change over the next year. But in a separate policy change that takes effect at the end of this week's meeting delegates voted to allow ministers to preside at gay weddings in states where the unions are legal and local congregational leaders approve. Nineteen states and the District of Columbia recognize same-sex marriage.

(Excerpt) Read more at theguardian.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: homosexualagenda; pcusa; religiousleft
An example of what happens when heretic brands of Christianity get to interpret Scripture accord to their own lights.
1 posted on 06/19/2014 6:49:42 PM PDT by Steelfish
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To: Steelfish
marriage can be the union of "two people," not just "a man and a woman".

Why only two? Why only people? Not very inclusive or affirming, are they?

2 posted on 06/19/2014 6:52:08 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (Conservatism is the political disposition of grown-ups.)
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To: Steelfish

They done lost the Savior way back. All else is details.


3 posted on 06/19/2014 6:53:45 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Embrace the Lion of Judah and He will roar for you and teach you to roar too. See my page.)
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To: Jeff Chandler

“My Three Gay-Married Sons!”


4 posted on 06/19/2014 6:54:13 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Embrace the Lion of Judah and He will roar for you and teach you to roar too. See my page.)
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To: Steelfish

You cannot legislate the Word of God.

It is what it is and is forever settled.

Heretics.


5 posted on 06/19/2014 6:56:10 PM PDT by bobo1 (progressives=commies/fascists)
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To: HiTech RedNeck

Sadly, that is the truth. They replaced with the Truth with man’s the whims of a corrupt culture.


6 posted on 06/19/2014 6:59:26 PM PDT by Army Air Corps (Four Fried Chickens and a Coke)
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To: Steelfish

And the Presbys are big into the divest, boycott from Israel campaigns all the while their numbers are shrinking and pushing their anti-God agenda.

Presbyterian Church (USA) disinvestment from Israel controversy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presbyterian_Church_%28USA%29_disinvestment_from_Israel_controversy

Presbyterian Church takes step towards divesting from Israeli military-linked companies
http://mondoweiss.net/2014/06/presbyterian-divesting-companies.html

Reform leader urges Presbyterians to reconsider divestment from Israel, meet Netanyahu instead
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.600060

With Declining Ranks, Does a Presbyterian Boycott of Israel Even Matter?
http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/06/19/with-declining-ranks-does-a-presbyterian-boycott-of-israel-even-matter/


7 posted on 06/19/2014 7:00:02 PM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (Pubbies = national collectivists; Dems = international collectivists; We need a second party!)
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To: Jack Hydrazine

That’s just the fizzle on the cake.


8 posted on 06/19/2014 7:05:21 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Embrace the Lion of Judah and He will roar for you and teach you to roar too. See my page.)
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To: Steelfish

My grandmother went to a Presbyterian church from the 1960s through the 80s (just that I know of) and she would turn over in her grave over this.


9 posted on 06/19/2014 7:29:11 PM PDT by sickoflibs (King Obama : 'The debate is over. The time for talk is over. Just follow my commands you serfs""')
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To: Steelfish

My guess is a ploy to get younger members,


10 posted on 06/19/2014 7:29:58 PM PDT by sickoflibs (King Obama : 'The debate is over. The time for talk is over. Just follow my commands you serfs""')
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To: Steelfish

Might as well fold up that so called “church”.


11 posted on 06/19/2014 7:32:19 PM PDT by wetgundog (" Extremism in the Defense of Liberty is no Vice")
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To: Steelfish

Freakshow


12 posted on 06/19/2014 7:33:24 PM PDT by icwhatudo (Low taxes and less spending in Sodom and Gomorrah is not my idea of a conservative victory)
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To: Steelfish
>> marriage can be the union of "two people" <<

Polygaphobes!! Hateful bigots! What right do they have to tell THREE people they're not allowed to LOVE each other?! How would they like it if the polygamy community didn't allow THEIR marriages between two people!

< sarcasm>

13 posted on 06/19/2014 7:42:44 PM PDT by BillyBoy (Looking at the weather lately, I could really use some 'global warming' right now!)
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To: bobo1

Thank you for encouraging me to look up the difference between heretic and apostate (and schismatic, along with them).

Heresy is a sin because of its nature it is destructive of the virtue of Christian faith. Its malice is to be measured therefore by the excellence of the good gift of which it deprives the soul. Now faith is the most precious possession of man, the root of his supernatural life, the pledge of his eternal salvation. Privation of faith is therefore the greatest evil, and deliberate rejection of faith is the greatest sin. St. Thomas (II-II, Q. x, a. 3) arrives at the same conclusion thus: “All sin is an aversion from God. A sin, therefore, is the greater the more it separates man from God. But infidelity does this more than any other sin, for the infidel (unbeliever) is without the true knowledge of God: his false knowledge does not bring him help, for what he opines is not God: manifestly, then, the sin of unbelief ( infidelitas) is the greatest sin in the whole range of perversity.”


14 posted on 06/19/2014 7:59:08 PM PDT by SpirituTuo
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To: Steelfish
Abandoning Christianity .....

The Church never can and never will give satisfaction—and the homosexualist knows it, for he knows the words against him are ineradicable—to the declared and impenitent homosexual, the person who, through an act of the vermiculate will, has identified his person with a sin, whether he demands acceptance of his sin through "love," or vindication through identification of his perceived enemies as bigots. Whether he presents himself as an object of love or indignation, what he demands in either case is acceptance not of the person, but of the sin-bound and sin-defined person. He demands the declaration of spiritual authority that there is nothing objectively disordered about this binding of man to sin, and assurance that this monstrous amalgam can indeed enter the kingdom of heaven. This can never happen among Christians until they abandon Christianity, which is at war with every sin, and whose indelible constitution places all perversions of the perfect man at the muzzle of its canons.

Just Christians (On Homosexuality & Christian Identity)

15 posted on 06/19/2014 8:00:35 PM PDT by Qiviut ( One of the most delightful things about a garden is the anticipation it provides. (W.E. Johns)
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To: Steelfish

Doesn’t prophesy say that in the last days many shall fall away from the faith?

Or maybe the Presby’s never had faith to lose in the first place, I don’t know.


16 posted on 06/19/2014 8:03:03 PM PDT by Paulie
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To: Steelfish

(to recognize same-sex marriage as Christian in the church constitution)

God will not be mocked.......


17 posted on 06/19/2014 8:07:39 PM PDT by 48th SPS
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To: Steelfish

Going to require a radically revised Romans Chapter 1. Modern MetroPresby version.


18 posted on 06/19/2014 8:25:21 PM PDT by epluribus_2 (he had the best mom - ever.)
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To: sickoflibs

There are plenty of good Presbyterian denominations. Presbyterian Church of America, the Evangelical Presbyterian Church, and the Cumberland Presbytherian Church. They are all growing; the PC-USA is shrinking.

Problem is that the press lauds them because they are a failed church, and they are also the oldest with the prettiest buildings.


19 posted on 06/19/2014 8:26:43 PM PDT by CaspersGh0sts
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To: sickoflibs
My guess is a ploy to get younger members,

What's the point of getting younger members if the church is no longer a Christian church? I have been convinced for quite a few years that the Presbyterian church has become apostate. I am not Presbyterian, but if I was I would be out the door and off the membership roll before God judges these apostates who insist on calling themselves Christians just as if they actually believed in the Lord Jesus Christ and respected His holy institution of marriage between man and woman.

if they don't believe what God has to say about homosexual debauchery in His Word (hint, hint,--- he aint in favor of it) then they should simply stop calling their social club a Church and go whole hog into human-animal hook-ups of all kinds. And why stop with same-sex so-called "marriage"? Why not man-dog marriage, or pig-woman hook-up, or any other combination of livestock and humans? Or for a little variety, maybe fish-man or lobster-woman?

I started to say that God must be laughing at their nonsense, but on 2nd thought I think it's much more likely that He's crying. Why? Because His sinless Son died in their place to save them from hell, and they're making a mockery of one of His most sacred institutions, i.e., marriage for life between one man and one woman.

20 posted on 06/19/2014 8:53:00 PM PDT by epow ("In the beginning GOD created the heavens and earth" Genesis 1:1)
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To: Steelfish

One way to empty the churches is to fill the leadership with homosexuals. It’s a plan.


21 posted on 06/19/2014 8:58:11 PM PDT by LoneRangerMassachusetts (The meek shall not inherit the Earth)
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To: Steelfish

“An example of what happens when heretic brands of Christianity get to interpret Scripture accord to their own lights.”

It is actually an example of what happens when heretics ascend to church leadership.... a plague that has infected all denominations, including the Catholic Church.

Statistics show over 50% of clergy are addicted to porn.


22 posted on 06/19/2014 9:12:16 PM PDT by stars & stripes forever (Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord.)
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To: Gamecock

can’t you sue them to stop using the term Presbyterian?


23 posted on 06/19/2014 10:53:47 PM PDT by Cronos (Obama’s dislike of Assad is not based on Assad’s brutality but that he isn't a jihadi Moslem)
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To: epow

to be fair, it is the PCUSA — the largest Presbyterian denomination, but one of at least 30 in the USA. There are smaller denominations that abhor gay marriage.


24 posted on 06/19/2014 10:55:28 PM PDT by Cronos (Obama’s dislike of Assad is not based on Assad’s brutality but that he isn't a jihadi Moslem)
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To: Steelfish

When you see the abomination of desolation standing in the Holy place....

“For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now”

Is the abomination gay marriage, that makes desolate due to it’s very nature, and the church is the Holy place? I’d have to read more scripture regarding this but if it fits, we are warned the tribulation is close at hand.


25 posted on 06/19/2014 11:23:08 PM PDT by kelly4c (http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/post?id=2900389%2C41#help)
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To: kelly4c

No worries. The Gates of Hell shall not prevail against the ONE, TRUE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, AND APOSTOLIC faith. We have seen the rot of Protestantism now starting to fray and decay and wither away with just about every single Protestant denomination now formally interpreting Scripture as “sanctifying” gay marriage. Without belief in the Eucharist, the rest is all desiderata. With Belief, there is life everlasting: Hence:

“I am the living bread which came down from heaven.”


26 posted on 06/19/2014 11:53:37 PM PDT by Steelfish (ui)
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To: Steelfish; Mrs. Don-o; don-o

Ping

See 26

I don’t make stuff up.

And I certainly would not lie to you two.

Some catholic posters here post inflammatory articles about a liberal non catholic sect to bash non Catholic sects in general

I happen to find PCUSA apostate as well but know they are hardly indicative of say my sect ..rural Southern Baptists

Until FR I never knew they’re were Catholics who held non Catholics in such low regard

I sure knew none in the South where we got along and public schools always had fish on Fridays

A learning curve.


27 posted on 06/20/2014 12:05:57 AM PDT by wardaddy (we will not take back our way of life through peaceful means.....i have 5 kids....i fear for them)
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To: Cronos

Like the Redskins?


28 posted on 06/20/2014 3:32:55 AM PDT by Gamecock (#BringTheAdultsBackToDC)
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To: wardaddy; Mrs. Don-o
Some catholic posters here post inflammatory articles about a liberal non catholic sect to bash non Catholic sects in general

Inflammatory? On the Religion Forum? Surely you jest.

The fact that "some" (actually any) post intemperately is a shame and a scandal and, imo, is not God pleasing. Then we have to wrestle with what is and is not temperate.

In one way, it's like that Supreme Court Justice said, "I know it when I see it." And, it definitely has do do with whose ox is being gored. We fallible and sinful humans lack pure motives. Some of us struggle with that and do try to consider both the content and effect of our words. Some of us recoil at the very thought that we could EVER be wrong.

The Missus posts more in this forum than do I. I read a great deal of what she posts because I admire both what she says and how she says it. When I commented "You're so busted" (on a previous thread) I believe it was in reaction to some challenging, possibly off base comment you had made that I anticipated her to dissect and refute with her usual skill and precision.

That's all that was. I ask forgiveness for any offense I caused.

Back to the tenor of discussion on the RF - I have thought it might be worthwhile to have a thread to discuss how to discuss. Maybe begin with a refresher course in the conventions of courtesy in real life and how those might be translated into the cyber world. That alone could improve interactions a lot.

Then we might remind ourselves of the basics of logic and how to make and support a position. We might all resolve to take greater care to find the right word, especially when a hot word that pops in our mind, in the heat, seems so perfect.

Of course such a thread would require the reading comprehension that we used to get in high school. There are so many comments here that demonstrate an appalling lack of it.

29 posted on 06/20/2014 4:58:11 AM PDT by don-o (He will not share His glory and He will NOT be mocked! Blessed be the name of the Lord forever!)
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To: epow
RE :”What's the point of getting younger members if the church is no longer a Christian church? I have been convinced for quite a few years that the Presbyterian church has become apostate. I am not Presbyterian, but if I was I would be out the door and off the membership roll before God judges these apostates who insist on calling themselves Christians just as if they actually believed in the Lord Jesus Christ and respected His holy institution of marriage between man and woman.”

Liberals have learned to play that game, as they have all the other rhetorical games.

They just tell the young people that the conservative Christians are the hypocrites citing Jesus talking about forgiveness(gays) , giving (voting for those who tax ) to the poor and how the rich conservatives cant get into heaven because they oppose government programs to help the poor.

30 posted on 06/20/2014 5:19:52 AM PDT by sickoflibs (King Obama : 'The debate is over. The time for talk is over. Just follow my commands you serfs""')
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To: wardaddy
I sure knew none in the South
Well yeah... because there are a lot fewer Catholics in most areas of the south. Catholics learn to keep their heads down to avoid persecution from various denominations that are in the south in large numbers and are very anti Catholic.
31 posted on 06/20/2014 5:59:37 AM PDT by TalonDJ
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To: Qiviut
Thanks for posting this quote and this link to Touchstone. A very strong, I'll even use the word "manly" statement.

It's so rare.

32 posted on 06/20/2014 6:13:13 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("By all that you hold dear on this good earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West" - Aragorn)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

The article beautifully states what the choice is .... the sin or the faith. Unfortunately, way too many are choosing the ‘sin’.


33 posted on 06/20/2014 6:37:37 AM PDT by Qiviut ( One of the most delightful things about a garden is the anticipation it provides. (W.E. Johns)
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To: don-o; wardaddy
Wardaddy, I just read the posts from Catholics repeatedly bashing Protestants in general, which you linked to. I am aghast and I am going to have a word with those people.

Let's try, all of us, to abstain from maligning others with broad, derogatory generalizations; and when they appear on the forum, let's try to correct our *own* co-religionists. Otherwise it turns into one of those bar-room brawls which end up with bruising, body-wide inflammation and bloody pixils.

Let's not do that to the Body of Christ.

About the tagline: maybe I should read this meditatively from time to time.

34 posted on 06/20/2014 6:40:41 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("Faith with love is the faith of Christians; without love, it is the faith of demons." - Ven. Bede)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

I’m with you.

My simple belief is that anyone truly accepts Christ as their savior....as the son of God sent here to live as us and die for our sins in our human physical form and endure all that pain to absolve us if we believe

To basically truly make all things new...
And try to at least acknowledge lifes roadmap given us

Has a decent shot at everlasting life at his side

And yes...there is the same vitriol directed at Catholics here from some non Catholics...no question


35 posted on 06/20/2014 8:56:25 AM PDT by wardaddy (we will not take back our way of life through peaceful means.....i have 5 kids....i fear for them)
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To: TalonDJ

Southerners persecute Catholics?

There are sects....hardcore charismatics might think old southern baptist me is apostate by their strict fundamentalism but they hardly persecute

You must be a Yankee.

I’m almost 60.

Grew up in a town of 200,000 with around 8 catholic schools and 10 catholic churches in metro area

Parochial schools played in our sports leagues and so forth

Fish on Fridays in all public schools to cover catholic kids

I hear you Yankees harp on this...likely because early 1900s Klan which was up north as much or more than down here was suspicious of Catholics....like Hugo Black

That was sure not relevant in my lifetime.

New England wasps disliked earlier Catholics....is that still an issue

In the coastal south Catholics are pretty prevalent.... even the majority frequently

They are viewed no different down here than anyone and better than say Kingdom Hall or UCC

What you suggest is a canard to be honest.


36 posted on 06/20/2014 9:08:39 AM PDT by wardaddy (we will not take back our way of life through peaceful means.....i have 5 kids....i fear for them)
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To: wardaddy

Where you ever Catholic in the south? No? Then my anecdotes beat your anecdotes.


37 posted on 06/23/2014 10:00:09 AM PDT by TalonDJ
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To: wardaddy

Until FR I never knew they’re were Catholics who held non Catholics in such low regard

...my, but you have very selective vision when it comes to that sort of thing...

...entire threads are launched with the express purpose of defaming Catholics on this forum, but somehow you fail to notice that...

...personally, I am opposed to the whole practice of carving up other denominations, but when my religion is attacked for no reason other than to attack, I will respond...


38 posted on 06/24/2014 7:18:57 AM PDT by IrishBrigade (')
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To: IrishBrigade

I have also pointed out what you claim as well but that is hardly a defense...the other side does it

however I’m not sure the anti Catholics here are condemned to Hell by their very definition...although your clergy are defamed by some no question

there are Catholics here wo claim anyone outside their faith is Hell bound...I sure never thought that about catholics and actually admired last two Popes ideologically more than not

several posters on this forum post almost nothing else but the slander of non catholics

thread after thread

please tell me you are not one of those yankees that view protestants as one big same thing...that is like viewing as latinos as Mexercans

its funny...I never viewed myself as protestant until here...I viewed myself as Christian in general and Baptist by church

Catholics and Baptists have divergent views on that matter...

like I said though...despite this self serving scare tactic that the south is awash in Catholic strange fruit..I never experienced any of the divisiveness I see here between Catholics and non Catholics

and we had plenty Catholics...in coastal areas Catholics often dominate by numbers

it seems like all this fear of non Catholics and chauvinism of Catholics towards non Catholics comes from up north where yall are the majority and have this fear of the hinterland as Catholic hating

that is simply untrue

last week I spent it with an American Catholic and his Polish Catholic wife on 30-A on the beach in Florida panhandle...his granddad helped found the first diocese in Collier county FL 80 years ago

part of my extended family and half my wifes are Catholic ...this sort of talk had never ever come up

if you feel persecuted here then be glad you’re not Mormon


39 posted on 06/24/2014 10:13:09 AM PDT by wardaddy (we will not take back our way of life through peaceful means.....i have 5 kids....i fear for them)
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To: Steelfish

>> “sanctifying” gay marriage.

Sanctifying sodomy.


40 posted on 06/24/2014 10:18:36 AM PDT by Gene Eric (Don't be a statist!)
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To: wardaddy; IrishBrigade

The contention is too often gratuitous, but on occasion reasonable concerns are raised.


41 posted on 06/24/2014 10:22:13 AM PDT by Gene Eric (Don't be a statist!)
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To: TalonDJ

My extended family is part Catholic and my wife’s family is half Catholic...(her mother’s)

I grew up in a neighborhood in West Jackson MS where there were more Catholics..Italians and Syrian/Leb.. than any other single group...in the 60s...they attended St Marys (since ghetto eaten) and we interacted in sports and other events.like dances and all played same Little League

aside from just regular neighborhood fun together...

My private high school girlfriend was Catholic and I attended mass with her...never heard her folks...dad a doctor...talk some here do

We had a lakehouse in Tensas parish Louisiana...attended mass there since my paternal extended side which was Catholic did

I lived in latin America and the Caribbean and West Africa for nearly 20 years where Catholic church was again my only option

I think I as a non Catholic southerner with Catholic family am just as qualified or maybe more so than you to comment on how Catholics are treated in Dixie.

If you have evidence of persecution of Catholics by Southern Baptists since WWII then please bring it out

Otherwise you’re acting like a liberal clamoring for me too! victimhood

you’re bringing back memories that parrallel that of Jews for me

in the South I never thought Jews were different other than loud moms and church on friday nite

but when I lived in Manhattan I got a new perspective

Catholics like you are giving me a new perspective about Catholics here on FR

it’s not very nice to be honest....and I try to be polite and never demonize Catholicism and I have spoken frequently of aspects of the traditions of Catholicism and the political history I admire but I do think the behavior of some Catholics here is poor form...unprovoked at times

but yes...in this parity age we must qualify all we say....there are catholic bashers here

but I do see the bashing of non Catholics unprovoked too

if it’s proselytizing...it’s not working

in any event ...none of this will ever be settled on this earth and there are far bigger fish to fry


42 posted on 06/24/2014 10:31:19 AM PDT by wardaddy (we will not take back our way of life through peaceful means.....i have 5 kids....i fear for them)
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To: wardaddy; TalonDJ; Mrs. Don-o

I’m mystified by the claim of Catholics being persecuted in the South.

Husband’s cousin married a few years ago...not long after they began having kids, they converted to Catholicism. No one in this evangelical family thought anything of it. When we all get together, religion isn’t an issue that’s discussed, unless it’s the general Godless direction of the country.

My best friend in high school was Catholic, and I loved spending time at her house with that big family (11 kids) running in and out. This would have been late seventies to early eighties, definitely a less PC time, but again, religion was never an issue.

I was born here in Virginia and raised here, and no one thinks twice about Catholics.

On the other hand, I was posting to a FR Catholic the other day who informed me that a non-Catholic who accepts Jesus, is baptized, and lives his or her life for the Lord is practicing a false religion.

I have a good friend who is Italian Catholic and a longtime Freeper. She would have a problem with that statement.

Go figure.


43 posted on 06/25/2014 1:25:19 PM PDT by CatherineofAragon ((Support Christian white males---the architects of the jewel known as Western Civilization).)
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To: CatherineofAragon
I'm a Catholic who's live in Tennessee for 26 years and have never been persecuted, nor heard of any other Catholic being persecuted.

More like, if I show up at a Baptist church, I'm almost fellowshipped to death!

44 posted on 06/25/2014 4:27:54 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Lord, save Your people and bless Your inheritance; give victory to the faithful over their adversary)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

LOL

And you’ll be fed potato salad and fried chicken until you pop.


45 posted on 06/25/2014 4:43:34 PM PDT by CatherineofAragon ((Support Christian white males---the architects of the jewel known as Western Civilization).)
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To: CatherineofAragon

Oh, those devilish Baptists! BBQ chicken, AND fried chicken, AND potato salad! Followed up by a huge hunka chunka chocolate cake!

Now that's what I call persecution!

46 posted on 06/25/2014 4:51:39 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Lord, save Your people and bless Your inheritance; give victory to the faithful over their adversary)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Can I have a helping of that persecution, please? Or maybe two?


47 posted on 06/25/2014 4:53:49 PM PDT by CatherineofAragon ((Support Christian white males---the architects of the jewel known as Western Civilization).)
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To: CatherineofAragon

Oh, insidious is what they are, those beaming Baptist ladies --- leading innocent Catholics like me to to ruin!

48 posted on 06/25/2014 5:10:01 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("Nothing is easier to resist than another person's temptation." - Oscar Wilde)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

I just want to stare at that picture for a while. Anybody would embrace ruin for a slice of that.


49 posted on 06/25/2014 5:17:54 PM PDT by CatherineofAragon ((Support Christian white males---the architects of the jewel known as Western Civilization).)
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To: CatherineofAragon
Yeah, like it's supposed to be "Lead us NOT into temptation." Talk about the decline of morals and the upsurge in hedonism...

"It's their fault, Lord. Their fault. Not my fault..."

50 posted on 06/25/2014 6:11:58 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("Nothing is easier to resist than another person's temptation." - Oscar Wilde)
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