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IRS Email Jeopardy: The agency had a legal obligation to retain the records it lost
The Wall Street Journal ^ | June 24, 2014 | Wall Street Journal Editorial Page

Posted on 06/24/2014 6:36:48 PM PDT by JOHN ADAMS

The IRS is spinning a tale of bureaucratic incompetence to explain the vanishing emails from former Tax Exempt Organizations doyenne Lois Lerner and six other IRS employees. We have less faith by the minute that there is an innocent explanation for this failure to cooperate with Congress, but even if true it doesn't matter. The IRS was under a legal obligation to retain the information because of a litigation hold.

(Excerpt) Read more at online.wsj.com ...


TOPICS: Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: email; irs
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1 posted on 06/24/2014 6:36:49 PM PDT by JOHN ADAMS
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To: JOHN ADAMS

Kelly file just mentioned they were able to recreate the IRS emails to Lerner. It’s her emails to WH and DOJ that are missing. We need confirmation of this And distribution if true.


2 posted on 06/24/2014 6:41:14 PM PDT by hoosiermama (Obama: "Born in Kenya" Lying now or then or now)
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To: JOHN ADAMS

They would rather some bureaucrat fall on his/her sward over the minor problem of failing their legal obligation to backup the suspect emails then have the emails exposed.


3 posted on 06/24/2014 6:43:42 PM PDT by doc1019
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To: JOHN ADAMS

There is no evidence, that the L. Lerner e-mail messages are lost.


4 posted on 06/24/2014 6:44:49 PM PDT by First_Salute (May God save our democratic-republican government, from a government by judiciary.)
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To: JOHN ADAMS

The libs keep gasping, “But Bush ‘lost’ 5 million emails!” Not that 2 wrongs make a right, but this deflection needs to be met head on. How?


5 posted on 06/24/2014 6:45:23 PM PDT by Fester Chugabrew (Even the compassion of the wicked is cruel.)
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To: JOHN ADAMS
hate the WSJ firewall.

I miss Taranto's Best of the Web

6 posted on 06/24/2014 6:46:33 PM PDT by mcenedo (lying liberal media - our most dangerous and powerful enemy)
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To: JOHN ADAMS

Obama has a legal obligation to uphold the Constitution.

Doesn’t seem to matter, huh?


7 posted on 06/24/2014 6:47:34 PM PDT by ClearCase_guy ("Harvey Dent, can we trust him?" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBsdV--kLoQ)
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To: hoosiermama

They probably don’t have the e-mails sent outside the IRS, such as ones sent to private e-mail accounts.


8 posted on 06/24/2014 6:50:23 PM PDT by lepton ("It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into"--Jonathan Swift)
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To: lepton

At today’s hearing it was dropped by Issa that a universal subpoena was sent to the WH. Iirc that includes all WH emails


9 posted on 06/24/2014 6:54:21 PM PDT by hoosiermama (Obama: "Born in Kenya" Lying now or then or now)
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To: hoosiermama

I was referring to the recovery process. Inter office e-mails can theoretically be obtained from the sender and any recipient...with a global search within the office. Any e-mails sent outside to private e-mail addresses cannot be obtained in the same manner.


10 posted on 06/24/2014 6:57:31 PM PDT by lepton ("It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into"--Jonathan Swift)
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To: lepton

Thanks for clarification


11 posted on 06/24/2014 7:00:03 PM PDT by hoosiermama (Obama: "Born in Kenya" Lying now or then or now)
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To: lepton

Makes no sense whatsoever, as they are not in control of emails sent out; only those coming in.


12 posted on 06/24/2014 7:01:07 PM PDT by FredZarguna (Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!)
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To: JOHN ADAMS

Much like a murder weapon being run over by a blow torch.


13 posted on 06/24/2014 7:03:59 PM PDT by MaxMax (Pay Attention and you'll be pissed off too! FIRE BOEHNER, NOW!)
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To: FredZarguna

What? E-mail has both an inbox and a Sent folder. Searches can be done on each.


14 posted on 06/24/2014 7:05:00 PM PDT by lepton ("It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into"--Jonathan Swift)
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To: Fester Chugabrew

This has less to do with who is in power than the question of the abuse of power itself. No administration of any party should be allowed to use the IRS or any agency to intimidate, silence and punish their political critics and adversaries. Our democratic ways, and our first amendment rights are literally at stake over this.


15 posted on 06/24/2014 7:08:56 PM PDT by monkeyshine
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To: JOHN ADAMS
doa...

Every IT person in the country has been saying this since the bogus story came out. I'm glad someone is making an issue of it, but it needs to get much louder. Lots of people need to lose their jobs and/or be prosecuted for this. Unfortunately, it's going to be some lowly IT guys that end up the scapegoat for this treachery and deceit

16 posted on 06/24/2014 7:19:20 PM PDT by FunkyZero (... I've got a Grand Piano to prop up my mortal remains)
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To: mcenedo
hate the WSJ firewall.

Why do you hate the WSJ firewall?

17 posted on 06/24/2014 7:21:04 PM PDT by kiryandil (turning Americans into felons, one obnoxious drunk at a time (Zero Tolerance!!!))
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To: FredZarguna

it has to do with how they configure the archives. “Sent Items” and “Deleted Items” are typically ignored where space becomes an issue. However, this does not relieve them (government) of their obligation and mandates that private businesses are not bound to. Those (sent items) should have been archived just like all other mail. The excuses are ludicrous and everyone knows it. When people started squawking about the archive mandate, they changed up the story... nothing unexpected. We know they are going to lie about it because they know there isn’t anyone with spine enough to call them to the mat and hold them accountable. It’s nothing short of infuriating


18 posted on 06/24/2014 7:24:58 PM PDT by FunkyZero (... I've got a Grand Piano to prop up my mortal remains)
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To: lepton
They probably don’t have the e-mails sent outside the IRS, such as ones sent to private e-mail accounts.

...Utah Rep. Jason Chaffetz needled Koskinen about a short-term data backup that the IRS had in place in 2011 when Lerner's hard drive crashed, but never used.

'It's actually a disaster recovery system,' the IRS commissioner testified, 'and it backs up for six months in case the entire system goes down ... That was the rule in 2011. Policy.'

Chaffetz wanted to know 'why didn't they just go to that six-month tape?'

Koskinen replied that it is a disaster recovery tape that has all of the emails on it, and is a very complicated tape to actually extract emails [from], but I have not seen any emails to explain why they didn't do it. So I It would be difficult, but I don't know why they didn't do it.'...

They had/have them ALL from her work computer, but "it's complicated".

BTW - real IT professionals don't get to use the "it's complicated" excuse.

If you work for IRS IT, it's a different story, apparently. Good thing federal government workers have a 95%+ retention rate, because the private sector doesn't hire "pretend" IT "professionals"...

19 posted on 06/24/2014 7:28:29 PM PDT by kiryandil (turning Americans into felons, one obnoxious drunk at a time (Zero Tolerance!!!))
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To: JOHN ADAMS

What is on a server and what is on her hard drive? Her inbox and sent are on the server. Anything she’s typing or hasn’t sent is on her hard drive. So if her computer is recycled and the hard drive is crushed, then nothing is really lost. Is it? Someone should talk to the contractor people who were maintaining the email server.


20 posted on 06/24/2014 7:40:56 PM PDT by OrioleFan (Republicans believe every day is July 4th, Democrats believe every day is April 15th.)
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To: mcenedo
hate the WSJ firewall

Do a Google search for:

legal obligation to retain the information because of a litigation hold

21 posted on 06/24/2014 7:42:44 PM PDT by TChad (The Obamacare motto: Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.)
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To: JOHN ADAMS

The IRS scandal seems to be an ongoing consequence-free crime.


22 posted on 06/24/2014 7:54:03 PM PDT by TChad (The Obamacare motto: Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.)
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To: mcenedo; TChad
TChad posted the solution:

You have to trick the WSJ computers into thinking you're just doing a Google or Bing search.

If their computer (or most other paywall computers) sees an incoming link from Free Republic or another site, the paywall automatically goes up.

Frustration sets in.

Fortunately, our site requires the correct title. So, I merely copied the title and Googled it (IRS Email Jeopardy: The agency had a legal obligation to retain the records it lost). HOWEVER! The REAL correct title is only "IRS Email Jeopardy". When I clicked on the link in my Google search the first time, the WSJ paywall computerknew that the search had come from a link title, and threw up the paywall.

I looked at the Google search results, and ascertained that the true title was "IRS Email Jeopardy", and did a search on that.

Bingo.

I checked a Google search on "Taranto's Best of the Web" for you. Works like a champ.

In some browsers (like Firefox), you can actually highlight to copy a title, right click, and on the context menu is that beautiful little line Search Google for "..." whatever you highlighted.

Time saver deluxe.

23 posted on 06/24/2014 8:00:32 PM PDT by kiryandil (turning Americans into felons, one obnoxious drunk at a time (Zero Tolerance!!!))
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To: lepton
You are confusing the local desktop copy with the actual destination, which is on a remote server. A copy of your sent items is kept and archived under your control; that is what you are talking about. The IRS wants people to believe this is the only copy, and therefore a hard drive crash on a single machine -- Lois Lerner's -- could delete all the emails.

This is false.

In addition to the local copy, received emails are also retained and archived on your incoming email server, and sent emails are retained and archived on the email servers of the recipients. There are almost certainly local email copies of the various correspondents as well.

Unless deleted from all desktops, all servers, and all archives these mails still exist. The IRS is simply lying.

24 posted on 06/24/2014 8:05:26 PM PDT by FredZarguna (Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!)
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To: FunkyZero
As both a Unix and VM system programmer, processing center manager, and system administrator for many years, I can tell you that it does not depend on how they "configure" the archives.

Under normal circumstances, these emails would exist in the following places: 1) The local desktop of the sender. This is where the [supposedly] crashed hard drive lives, and where the IRS wants you to believe the emails have been lost. 2) The email server serving the recipient clients. 3) The email server serving the sending clients [these are distinct machines if the senders and receivers are in different organizations.] 4) Multiple local desktop copies of senders and recipients involved in these threads. 5) By Federal law, nearline storage of the server archives -- both source and destination and/or digital tape storage of the source and destination servers. 6) By Federal law, paper backups of correspondence involving taxpayers or litigants. 7) The NSA.

The IRS wants you to believe that destruction of a single hard drive and failure to maintain archives according to Federal law (oh, well...) accounts for all of the copies of these emails. It does not. The IRS is thumbing its nose at Congress, the American People, and the law.

25 posted on 06/24/2014 8:14:01 PM PDT by FredZarguna (Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!)
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To: FredZarguna

Huh? Both sent and received emails are stored on email servers.


26 posted on 06/24/2014 8:17:34 PM PDT by Durus (You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality. Ayn Rand)
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To: FredZarguna

Well said and ignore my last.


27 posted on 06/24/2014 8:21:25 PM PDT by Durus (You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality. Ayn Rand)
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To: Durus

So what? The destination servers are not under IRS control, unless the recipient is at the IRS. That is one of the many, many, many reasons which I have dealt with in numerous posts, why this whole thing is a flimsy, outrageous lie. [See the posts two or three above this one.]


28 posted on 06/24/2014 8:23:04 PM PDT by FredZarguna (Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!)
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To: Durus

Heh. Ignore mine, too.


29 posted on 06/24/2014 8:24:14 PM PDT by FredZarguna (Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!)
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To: kiryandil

Why only keep backups for 6 months? Tape is cheap.


30 posted on 06/24/2014 8:32:03 PM PDT by The_Media_never_lie (The media must be defeated any way it can be done.)
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To: JOHN ADAMS

What really dismays me is that there is no one in the irs with enough integrity to step forward and tell what happened. We can survive obama, what we can’t survive is the weight of those who support and cover for him. If we go under, that will be what drags us under.


31 posted on 06/24/2014 8:33:59 PM PDT by RobinOfKingston (Democrats--the party of Evil. Republicans--the party of Stupid.)
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To: FredZarguna

the archiving software commonly used is a client application that is installed or exists on either an MTA routing server or an MX gateway. This intercepts every message passing through it and decides whether to archive it or not based on the administrators selections. I’ve configured the software in the past, I know how it works and it does indeed matter what is selected as well as how long the archives are stored before they are purged. You can create policies for global use or smaller groups of individuals and have customized archiving rules applied to the given groups or even individual users. There may be lower-end applications out there that do not give you these options, but I don’t know who would use something like that.


32 posted on 06/24/2014 8:50:46 PM PDT by FunkyZero (... I've got a Grand Piano to prop up my mortal remains)
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To: FunkyZero

That is another level which has nothing to do with whether the servers themselves are backed up.


33 posted on 06/24/2014 8:53:26 PM PDT by FredZarguna (Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!)
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To: kiryandil

-—’It’s actually a disaster recovery system,’

If the IRS had proper leadership and respect for the people, they would have considered this sorry crapalooza a disaster to recover from.


34 posted on 06/24/2014 9:02:47 PM PDT by sgtyork (Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy)
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To: FredZarguna
Of course it is a different level. This is not a backup mechanism, it is document retention. There are entire software package suites that are purpose build for this. If you type a message and click send, the message router copies the email to the archives. It is completely out of the control of the user and in an environment this large. 99% of the admins can't even access it because it's a legal issue...

The options are limited, but quite granular. You can even choose to strip or keep file attachments, set storage limits, archive length, which user folders to ignore or include, etc...

Server backups are another facet of this whole lie. I can believe that their rotations overwrote the backups from 2 years ago, that is completely feasible... but not the archive system.

35 posted on 06/24/2014 9:09:54 PM PDT by FunkyZero (... I've got a Grand Piano to prop up my mortal remains)
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To: FunkyZero
I can believe that their rotations overwrote the backups from 2 years ago, that is completely feasible...

It really isn't.

36 posted on 06/24/2014 9:22:39 PM PDT by FredZarguna (Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!)
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To: The_Media_never_lie
Why only keep backups for 6 months? Tape is cheap.

Because they're lying?

Tape was cheap 15 years ago, when we were archiving our files.

They're lying like rugs. Tyrannical rugs.

37 posted on 06/24/2014 9:23:02 PM PDT by kiryandil (turning Americans into felons, one obnoxious drunk at a time (Zero Tolerance!!!))
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To: FredZarguna

She apparently had a lap top in addition to her office computer that “broke”

Yesterday I went to the local library signed in my email account and brought up emails from two years ago in the sent folder.

Even needed help with password

We need a hacker that’s smarter than a fifth grader


38 posted on 06/25/2014 12:35:48 AM PDT by hoosiermama (Obama: "Born in Kenya" Lying now or then or now)
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To: Fester Chugabrew
Those emails were hosted on an RNC server, not an official US Gov’t server.

That server was used, as intended, for political emails, so that WH appointees would not violate the Hatch Act.

Emails were found to have been sent to/from a .gov server but no additional info was made public.

The RNC did not keep any emails from 51 officials that used the email system, which did not violate any laws.

It was never 5 million emails nor 22 million emails - those numbers came from DNC operatives.

Obama’s executive branch is accused of willfully violating numerous laws regarding preservation of emails on official gov’t servers, of violating the Hatch Act by ignoring it and passing privileged personal info illegally to outside political sources.

Different world entirely.

39 posted on 06/25/2014 1:53:22 AM PDT by texas booster (Join FreeRepublic's Folding@Home team (Team # 36120) Cure Alzheimer's!)
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To: Fester Chugabrew
For fun and games, read this WaPo ever-so-balanced article on all of those political “crimes”.

Then compare it to current reporting and this administration's actions.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/17/AR2007041701984.html?nav=rss_politics

40 posted on 06/25/2014 1:57:54 AM PDT by texas booster (Join FreeRepublic's Folding@Home team (Team # 36120) Cure Alzheimer's!)
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Waterboard Lois and I’ll bet she surrenders her secret trove of backed up data. Not that I’d advocate anything illegal to discover something else illegal. The end does not justify the means. But just sayin’


41 posted on 06/25/2014 3:04:47 AM PDT by USCG SimTech (Honored to serve since '71)
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To: kiryandil

Another big lie: it is extremely complicated to extract LL’s emails from the backups. Show me an IT guy who says retrieving backup emails is extremely complicated. Bet one cannot be found.


42 posted on 06/25/2014 4:51:38 AM PDT by The_Media_never_lie (The media must be defeated any way it can be done.)
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To: First_Salute
There is no evidence, that the L. Lerner e-mail messages are lost.

Absolutely correct. The only "evidence" that any emails are even missing are the assertions of the IRS. They have never provided any correspondence, logs, work orders, etc., related to "hard drive crashes" or "lost email".

Not only does their story not pass the smell test, their cover story for that story stinks worse.

43 posted on 06/25/2014 5:00:02 AM PDT by kevkrom (I'm not an unreasonable man... well, actually, I am. But hear me out anyway.)
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To: JOHN ADAMS

Glad this was in the WSJ...
Nothing to see here or it would have been reported in the NYT (owned by the OMG). We need to focus more on American Idol or reality TV. You guys are too serious about real news. Take a chill pill and relax.


44 posted on 06/25/2014 7:25:58 AM PDT by ncfool (Hilary 2016 Procol Harum or Boko Haram. What difference does it make?)
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To: JOHN ADAMS

When the government does something like this, it’s always just “Ooops, our bad.” When a citizen does the exact same thing, it’s swat teams, arrests, and worse. That’s what happens when you have a feral regime for a government.


45 posted on 06/25/2014 7:37:34 AM PDT by zeugma (It is time for us to start playing cowboys and muslims for real now.)
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To: JOHN ADAMS

“the agency” had a legal obligation?

“the agency” can’t be held accountable.

PERSONS must be held legally/criminally accountable.


46 posted on 06/25/2014 7:38:39 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: kiryandil
Tape is cheap, though these days hard disks are cheaper in a relative sense.

Back when I was a tape monkey in a data center, here's the system I used.

The most data you could lose was the intra-day work that happened since the end of one backup and  the end of another. We could go back 5 years for stuff that was not even financial/legal stuff, but just data that it was possible we might want for research purposes.

I do essentially the same thing at home now with an external drive, except it uses Rsync to limit the amount of data required to maintain the different rotations. I occasionally swap out the external drive, though probably not as often as I should. If I were smart, I'd do that right after the monthly is done.

None of this is rocket science, and all of the above was using 9-track tape, stored offsite until the week it was being returned to be used. 

When they say they've "lost" the emails, they are blatantly lying. They may have actively searched out and destroyed the evidence of thier crimes, but it wasn't simply 'lost' in a hardware failure.

 

47 posted on 06/25/2014 8:01:54 AM PDT by zeugma (It is time for us to start playing cowboys and muslims for real now.)
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To: JOHN ADAMS

EVERYBODY knows they’re lying.

These hearings are just for show.

Wake me up when someone gets arrested for breaking the law.


48 posted on 06/25/2014 8:14:50 AM PDT by privatedrive
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To: FunkyZero

If you get to the “lowly” IT guys, you will probably find them not to be political. Most I have known to were not political.


49 posted on 06/25/2014 3:35:25 PM PDT by The_Media_never_lie (The media must be defeated any way it can be done.)
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To: kevkrom
They have never provided any correspondence, logs, work orders, etc., related to "hard drive crashes" or "lost email".

Talk to The Hand of the IRS, you sniveling peasant.

50 posted on 06/25/2014 3:58:49 PM PDT by kiryandil (turning Americans into felons, one obnoxious drunk at a time (Zero Tolerance!!!))
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