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Ex-US Sen. Howard Baker Jr. dies
AP via Yahoo News ^ | 6/26/14 | DONNA CASSATA and ERIK SCHELZIG

Posted on 06/26/2014 11:16:33 AM PDT by Kartographer

Former Sen. Howard H. Baker Jr., a moderate Republican known as the politician who inquired what President Richard Nixon knew during the 1973 Senate Watergate hearings, has died. He was 88.

(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...


TOPICS: Front Page News; Politics/Elections; US: Tennessee
KEYWORDS: howardbaker; obituary
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1 posted on 06/26/2014 11:16:33 AM PDT by Kartographer
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To: Kartographer

A Pi Kappa Phi reports to the Chapter Eternal.


2 posted on 06/26/2014 11:18:36 AM PDT by AppyPappy
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To: Kartographer

RIP


3 posted on 06/26/2014 11:20:09 AM PDT by laplata (Liberals don't get it .... their minds are diseased.)
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To: AppyPappy

Baker was a decent guy but while he went on vacation Kennedy went to work to scuttle the Bork nomination.


4 posted on 06/26/2014 11:21:08 AM PDT by Steelfish (ui)
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Comment #5 Removed by Moderator

To: Kartographer

RIP.


6 posted on 06/26/2014 11:26:07 AM PDT by ScottinVA (If it doesn't include border security, it isn't "reform." It's called "amnesty.")
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To: Steelfish

I was at CPAC in ‘78 and ‘79 and in one of those I remember Congressman John Ashbrook from Ohio saying...”And if you’re from Tennessee you should tell Howard Baker, “I’ll never vote for you again.”” I was from Tennessee and Ashbrook seemed to look right at me. This was in the wake of the Panama Canal giveaway led by Howard Baker. Soon Ashbrook died suddenly and mysteriously while Baker went on to be the toast of the establishment GOP.


7 posted on 06/26/2014 11:26:37 AM PDT by Monterrosa-24 (...even more American than a French bikini and a Russian AK-47.)
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To: Kartographer

for a moment there i was confusing him with James Baker...


8 posted on 06/26/2014 11:49:15 AM PDT by latina4dubya (when i have money i buy books... if i have anything left, i buy 6-inch heels and a bottle of wine...)
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To: Monterrosa-24

Howard Baker also was a good part of the reason why President Reagan was unable to abolish the Department of Education, which had been established during President Carter’s term of office.


9 posted on 06/26/2014 11:58:33 AM PDT by Piranha (Power is not only what you have but what the enemy thinks you have - Saul Alinsky)
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Comment #10 Removed by Moderator

To: shalom aleichem

Shame on you.


11 posted on 06/26/2014 12:13:15 PM PDT by don-o (He will not share His glory and He will NOT be mocked! Blessed be the name of the Lord forever!)
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To: Kartographer

“A moderate republican”?
Not to kick warrented dirt on a dead man but he was the poster child of a RINO.
May he rest in peace after discovering the errors of his ways.


12 posted on 06/26/2014 12:27:32 PM PDT by Joe Boucher ((FUBO) obammy lied and lied and lied)
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To: Kartographer

It’s past time for a generational change that will improve things in America. The “go along to get along” compromisers are culpable in creating the Frankenstein Government that is abusing Americans today.


13 posted on 06/26/2014 12:31:04 PM PDT by txrefugee
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To: Kartographer

He was a decent man and condolences to his family. As a senator he was no ball of fire and took it on the chin many times from the RATS.


14 posted on 06/26/2014 12:54:03 PM PDT by kenmcg (b)
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To: Kartographer

Baker’s death means the last living senator of the seven who were part of the Watergate Committee is Connecticut’s Lowell P. Weicker, Jr. He’s 83.


15 posted on 06/26/2014 1:00:44 PM PDT by Borges
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To: Joe Boucher

Forgive my French, but don’t be a dick. The man is dead. Have some respect. I’m sure you’re perfect and will have nothing to account for when you’ve passed.


16 posted on 06/26/2014 1:04:31 PM PDT by bigdaddy45
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To: Piranha

He’s also the one guy most responsible for saving the Reagan presidential legacy in the wake of Iran Contra. Reagan would have still filled out his term, but he wouldn’t have rebounded in popularity as he did.


17 posted on 06/26/2014 1:08:18 PM PDT by tanknetter
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To: JohnBovenmyer

Maybe you could leave that up to GOD, or maybe I missed the coronation announcement.


18 posted on 06/26/2014 1:27:18 PM PDT by billhilly (Its OK, the left hated Bush.)
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Comment #19 Removed by Moderator

To: billhilly; tanknetter; bigdaddy45; Borges; kenmcg; txrefugee; Joe Boucher; don-o; ...

Howard Baker was a decent and honorable man in exactly and precisely the same way Lindsey Graham is a decent and honorable man.

RIP Mr. Baker.


20 posted on 06/26/2014 2:07:56 PM PDT by ckilmer (q)
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Comment #21 Removed by Moderator

To: Monterrosa-24
I was at CPAC in ‘78 and ‘79 and in one of those I remember Congressman John Ashbrook from Ohio saying...”And if you’re from Tennessee you should tell Howard Baker, “I’ll never vote for you again.”” I was from Tennessee and Ashbrook seemed to look right at me. This was in the wake of the Panama Canal giveaway led by Howard Baker. Soon Ashbrook died suddenly and mysteriously while Baker went on to be the toast of the establishment GOP.

Baker & the late Congressman John Duncan Sr made a lot of East Tennessee people mad too over a late night bill authorizing completion and final land acquisition of Tellico Dam.

The federal government forced sale of total parcels if even so much as a square foot of land was on the lakes boundaries and the other 100 acres were not. TVA instead of doing as in year past buying up to flood stage and offering to buy people out completely took the 100 acres or however the person owned at county appraisal price. This was some of the states best farm land.

What happened next rubbed salt in the wounds far worse. That land was practically given away to high dollar developers for planned communities in some cases with million dollar lots. Even TVA had admitted that Tellico Lake was not needed & was not cost effective or cost justifiable for what increase it would give to Ft Loudon Dam. By then nuclear was the future.

Somebody with lots of clout and political connections in DC had big plans and said I want it so make it happen. Baker like Duncan SR likely started out working for the people. It seems after folk stay in DC so long in office they forget where they came from, {Baker and Duncan grew up in the same rural community} who put them there, and who they are supposed to represent. Sad ending to what could have been a great statesman's career.

22 posted on 06/26/2014 5:30:51 PM PDT by cva66snipe ((Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?))
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To: Kartographer

RIP.


23 posted on 06/26/2014 8:05:15 PM PDT by fieldmarshaldj (Resist We Much)
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To: fieldmarshaldj; Clintonfatigued; AuH2ORepublican; BillyBoy

RIP, a lot of haterade on this thread.


24 posted on 06/26/2014 8:12:47 PM PDT by Impy (RED=COMMUNIST, NOT REPUBLICAN)
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To: Impy; GailA; wardaddy; sickoflibs; AuH2ORepublican; Clintonfatigued; BlackElk; NFHale; BillyBoy

Baker was at the vanguard of the early GOP alignment in TN in the ‘60s, taking advantage of a brutally ugly internecine Democrat battle that continued for 2 years. When Sen. Estes Kefauver unexpectedly died at the age of 60 in 1963, Gov. Frank Clement positioned himself to succeed him (although he didn’t outright have himself appointed). Clement appointed an old-timer Dem apparatchik, Hub Walters, to occupy the seat until the 1964 special.

Clement thought he’d waltz right into the seat, but 5-term Congressman Ross Bass upended him in a surprise in the primary for the remaining two years of the term.

Howard Baker, Jr., son of a recently deceased Congressman, could’ve run for his dad’s seat in 1964 (which his stepmother was occupying) and held it for perpetuity, but he opted for the risky move of running statewide. At that time, no Republican had ever won a popular election for the Senate (and not since 1920 had a Republican won the Governorship). He fared well against Bass, who won the special in November (because of the anti-GOP backlash, and LBJ carried TN).

Ex-Gov. Clement, however, never really stopped running, and carried on against Bass for the next two years straight. This time around, Clement narrowly upended Bass in the primary. He likely believed he was going to be ensconced in the seat for the next 30 years (he was just 46 at the time), but TN was moving to the GOP (absent JFK’s assassination, there’s a good chance the GOP would’ve captured both Senate seats with Baker and Dan Kuykendall). Clement ended up faltering badly for the fall campaign after going all in to win the nomination, and with LBJ massively unpopular by 1966, Baker scored the upset. As for Clement, 3 years later on the brink of declaring for the Governorship again for 1970, he died in a car crash in 1969, he was only 49.

It’s curious I never had much of an opinion of Baker by the time he retired in 1985 (since he honestly believed he would be the 1988 Presidential nominee after his failed attempt in 1980, and wanted to be free to run while not in the Senate). Of course, I was still a yoot lib at that time (1984), soon to change by 1986. Although he was not a Conservative, he and the TN GOP of that time tended to be the bulwark of integrity against the corrupt, good ole boy Democrat hegemony still deeply enshrined in our state, so that was in his favor (even Lamar! was considered that as well).

If he was serving into the ‘90s or the ‘00s (since he would’ve been able to keep the seat as long as he had wanted), I would likely have soured on him as I became more politically aware. I’d have preferred more of Sen. Bill Brock, who was considered the more hard-charging Conservative of the ‘70s (who alas lost to the execrable Jim Sasser in 1976 in a revenge of the Gorebots, Sr. in this instance).

Love him or hate him, he did play a substantial role in moving the state towards the GOP supermajority we have today.


25 posted on 06/26/2014 8:59:15 PM PDT by fieldmarshaldj (Resist We Much)
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To: Impy
He WAS a squishy moderate and borderline RINO but damn. As Fieldmarshaldj pointed out, at least he built the TN GOP into dominant force it is today.

I'm surprised the way freepers react sometimes when a polarizing figure dies.

I'm no Nelson Mandela fan and totally disagree with his leftist beliefs but from the dead Nelson Mandela threads you'd think he was Lucifer incarnate. A lot of the current ANC members are FAR worse than Mandela, who at least sought to be a unifying figure after apartheid. (and "Archbishop Desmond Tutu" is a media creation that has next to no power in South Africa's Christian hiarcy, but gets fawning media coverage because he spouts leftist talking points). The Mandela = Pure Evil stuff was presented as a way to offset the media "portraying Mandela as a saint" (and I agree the media coverage was 100% positive with zero mention of Mandela's negatives).

Then ironically, when Ariel Sharon died, the RIP Sharon threads treated HIM like a 100% perfect saint and gushed about "the lion of judah". Every topic of his life only mentioned his military service and his political career was whitewashed. I guess we were supposed to forget or ignore that he was one of the worst PM's in Israeli history and became a turnout traitor that wanted to cave to Islamists demands and tried to single handily take over the country with a "centrist" party that was the Israel equivalent of John McCain and Joe LIEberman creating a "National Unity Party" to do the bidding of the Washington media. I remember when Sharon was PM and every conservative on here despised him. Then he dies 8 years later after being in a coma and he's suddenly portrayed as a General Patton type universally beloved inspirational hero.

26 posted on 06/26/2014 9:25:32 PM PDT by BillyBoy (Looking at the weather lately, I could really use some 'global warming' right now!)
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To: BillyBoy

Well I guess Mandela wasn’t “pure” evil, but if were up to me, he and his ex-wife would have been executed a long long time ago. The coverage was just sickening, when Ted Cruz praised him and then said in the same week that he wanted to repeal the 17th amendment that got him elected, I almost plotzed. His successors have been worse, and that’s tremulously sad. Zuma thinks taking a shower after sex can wash the HIV away (that’s what he did after he raped an HIV-positive woman), what a dipstick. Unfortunately I have to conclude the country was better off during apartheid, such is the epic failure of ANC rule.

” Israel equivalent of John McCain and Joe LIEberman creating a “National Unity Party” to do the bidding of the Washington media. “

Yeah, screw him. I mean he I give a “RIP” to but when all was said and done he probably did more bad than good in his life by forming “Kadima”. Being a war hero doesn’t excuse turning into a lousy politician.


27 posted on 06/26/2014 10:50:06 PM PDT by Impy (RED=COMMUNIST, NOT REPUBLICAN)
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To: Impy
>> Yeah, screw him. I mean he I give a “RIP” to but when all was said and done he probably did more bad than good in his life by forming “Kadima”. Being a war hero doesn’t excuse turning into a lousy politician. <<

That's the irony of many on our side complaining about the biased coverage of Mandela treating him like a perfect saint when he died, then coming up with our own "beloved saint" idealized fantasy a month later when Sharon died. Every conservative internet story I saw on Sharon's passing treated him as a flawless war hero.

I felt the same way when numerous Republicans (rightfully) denounced the Dems for standing by Holder after he lied to Congress, but continued to treat Alberto Gonzales as a "inspiration" and "latino role model" after HE had lied and disgraced the office. (fortunately many conservative activists said otherwise, but the GOP establishment continued to treat Alberto as a respected GOP leader).

No excuse for hypocrisy and double standards whether its on the right or left.

28 posted on 06/27/2014 12:01:45 AM PDT by BillyBoy (Looking at the weather lately, I could really use some 'global warming' right now!)
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To: ckilmer

Graham is garbage.


29 posted on 06/27/2014 9:27:29 AM PDT by Joe Boucher ((FUBO) obammy lied and lied and lied)
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To: fieldmarshaldj
Met the man just once but once was enough. It was at a meeting of the Young Republican National Executive Committee function where we were expected to line up and shake his hand. One cannot wage war on every issue and so I showed up and shook his hand as a social "obligation." I then went straight back to my hotel room and to a long hot shower to get rid of that feeling of uncleanness that resulted from contact with Howard Baker.

I know that, as to the dead, if we cannot say something nice, we should say nothing at all. Just can't help it.

Your description of Baker as a force for integrity surprises. I had always thought of him as being in the second tier of GOP corruption. Lowell Weicker occupied the entire first tier of GOP corruption. Familiarity in that case certainly breeds contempt on the part of even former Connecticut folks like me.

To me, the major significance of Howard Baker's death is that it will be one less vote for LAMAR!!! Alexander now and one less for Corker later.

30 posted on 06/27/2014 10:51:56 AM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline, Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Society: Rack 'em Danno!)
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To: Kartographer
a moderate Republican

What was "moderate" about him?

31 posted on 06/27/2014 3:40:30 PM PDT by Theodore R. (Liberals keep winning; so the American people must now be all-liberal all the time.)
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To: Kartographer

It’s interesting that HHB won his last Senate term on the day that Lamar! was first elected governor and on the day that Good Neighbor Thad won his first Senate term.


32 posted on 06/27/2014 3:54:45 PM PDT by Theodore R. (Liberals keep winning; so the American people must now be all-liberal all the time.)
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To: BlackElk

I know somebody who says much the same thing about another old compromiser, Richard G. Lugar, “R”-IN.


33 posted on 06/27/2014 3:56:06 PM PDT by Theodore R. (Liberals keep winning; so the American people must now be all-liberal all the time.)
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To: fieldmarshaldj

Good analysis, dj, but I am surprised that you were ever on the leftist side. Surely it wasn’t fascination of Brezhnev.


34 posted on 06/27/2014 3:57:56 PM PDT by Theodore R. (Liberals keep winning; so the American people must now be all-liberal all the time.)
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To: Theodore R.

Let’s add former Senator John (the 8th or 10th husband of Liz Taylor) Warner of VA to the list of the useless.


35 posted on 06/27/2014 3:59:37 PM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline, Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Society: Rack 'em Danno!)
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To: fieldmarshaldj
It’s curious I never had much of an opinion of Baker by the time he retired in 1985 (since he honestly believed he would be the 1988 Presidential nominee after his failed attempt in 1980, and wanted to be free to run while not in the Senate).

Interestingly, he pretty much gave up another presidential run to become Reagan's Chief of Staff for his last two years.
36 posted on 06/27/2014 5:34:26 PM PDT by Galactic Overlord-In-Chief (Our Joe Wilson can take the Dems' Joe Wilson any day of the week)
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To: BlackElk; Theodore R.; Clintonfatigued; GailA; wardaddy; cva66snipe; Clemenza; AuH2ORepublican; ...

Sometimes, what an elected official is at the state level is not necessarily what they are at the federal level. As an example, I’ll give you the illustrious Maine Twins. While we had/have no use for Snowe and Collins when both were there, and some said they might as well switch parties, by Mainer standards, neither could win a Democrat primary since the ME Democrats are practically a Stalinist bunch, and the two women are viewed as though they’re Jesse Helms or Sarah Palin (although when Paul LePage got elevated to Governor, one of the best in the nation, that shattered that, since a bonafide actual Conservative hadn’t occupied that office in the modern era).

Where this applies to Baker was that when he came on the scene, he was moving TN’s politics back a bit to the right, at least with respect to our Senators. 2 decades before, up until 1949, the state had two Conservative Democrats occupying both seats, Tom Stewart and Kenneth McKellar (who had been in the Senate since 1917 and the House before that since 1911, when Taft was President, and like Fred Thompson, was a native Alabaman). McKellar had been around so long that he probably could’ve been considered an old Bourbonite who politically came of age during the first Cleveland term and was still around for the cusp of Eisenhower.

McKellar would probably be at home in the Tea Party today (to some degree, at least). He didn’t like the TVA being a government-owned entity and wanted it sold (what was always bizarre to me was that his colleague, the Socialist Republican from Nebraska, George W. Norris, was obsessed with the TVA and pushing for it. Why a Nebraska Senator was so concerned over Tennessee’s affairs, I have no idea. One of the main TVA dams and lakes is named for Norris).

With the left-wing FDR disciples taking over the TN Democrat party and away from the old Boss Crump of Memphis, who mightily controlled the party for years, they had big targets in McKellar and Stewart. Elected in 1938 & 1939, respectively, were the young thirtysomethings Estes Kefauver from Chattanooga and Albert Gore, Sr. in the adjacent rural district to the northwest (ostensibly from Carthage by way of the tiny hamlet of Granville on the Cumberland). Kefauver decided to take the first lead to depose Sen. Stewart in 1948, which he was successful in doing, and was soon thrust into the national limelight. McKellar, by then, was in his 80s and became the President Pro Tempore of the Senate (which had him one rung closer to the Presidency during Truman’s first term).

Most states would’ve been proud to have and keep McKellar in a powerful position, but with a now forty-something Congressman Gore watching as Kefauver jumped ahead of him to the Senate, despite having a smidge more seniority, he decided to go for the brass ring in 1952, campaigning partly on the issue against privatizing TVA. At 83, it was hard for McKellar to outhustle the Old Gray Fox, who would’ve sold his soul for power (actually, he did, to Armand Hammer). The irony, too, was that Gore lived in some fancy hotel in DC, where Junior grew up, born during his time in the House in DC, and not Tennessee (I always surmised Junior affected his accent, which should’ve sounded no more “Southern” than Pat Buchanan).

With the defeat of McKellar and Stewart, two old-guard types, our poor state was saddled with two egomaniacs who coveted the Presidency with an almost unequaled ferocity. Both battled for the VP slot in 1956, with it going to Kefauver (I think even the Dems were put off by Gore, Sr’s rabidness, his pursuit to get the slot now the stuff of legend). Curiously, both managed to get the jump on a certain young Senator from Massachusetts, who was also jockeying for the slot. Mind you, none of them likely believed Ike would be defeated, it was all about who would get the slot for 1960. As far as I know, I don’t think JFK even considered either of them for 1960 to be #2, preferring the more subdued Stuart Symington of Missouri (only having to take that certain fella from Texas, whom they still couldn’t believe wanted the job).

Both Gore and Kefauver had to be mindful of the fact that TN was beginning to slip away from the Democrats at the Presidential level (although my state was fairly solidly Democrat, unusual as an ex-Confederate state, it had a solid Republican bloc in the Eastern counties (and some western TN River counties) going back to Reconstruction that held even after, and could serve as a good base for if the old Confederate counties in Middle & West TN were to soften up). Even in the 1920s, the GOP made gains and voted for Harding in 1920 and Hoover in 1928 (though it went for West Virginian Davis in 1924 over Coolidge). The Depression wiped out the gains, of course. By 1952 and even in 1956 with Kefauver on the ticket, the state went for Eisenhower. Kefauver, unbeknownst to him, ran his last Senate race in 1960 and was surely disappointed to see TN go with Nixon.

Gore, Sr., however, was already unpopular enough with the Conservatives that they recruited ex-Gov. Prentice Cooper (father of my current Congressman Jim Cooper) to challenge Gore in the 1958 primary, which turned into a fiasco (Cooper ran as a segregationist hardliner, which didn’t go over well — and made Sr. look like a pro-Civil Rights type, which was also not quite so). With Kefauver’s death in 1963 and seeing his own national ambitions to be President evaporated, Gore, Sr. was terrified at the GOP lurch in TN. Kefauver’s old House seat went Republican in 1962 with Bill Brock (his grandfather had briefly served as a Democrat Senate appointee in the 1920s opposite McKellar), after the Democrats decided to purge Kefauver’s successor, a Conservative Dem, Jim Frazier, sitting in the seat for a JFK liberal (whose own father had also once been Senator).

Making a play for at least two other House seats, as well as both Senate seats in 1964, to try to go for an outright majority, Gore, Sr., the “great racial moderate” decided to turn into a rabid hard-line seg to make George Wallace blush. Not only voting against the 1964 Civil Rights Act, but filibustering it as well, he tossed his Black supporters under the bus in an appeal for the ultra-redneck vote. It momentarily worked in defeating Memphis GOP Conservative Dan Kuykendall, but the sympathy vote for JFK/LBJ was more likely the reason that Gore and Ross Bass were carried across (LBJ getting 56% in TN, Nixon having gotten 53% in 1960, with a substantial % of the Black vote).

With Howard Baker’s ascendance in 1966 to the other Senate seat, he looked to be the ethical and decent alternative to the old pol Gore, Sr. (now closing in on 3 decades in federal office). One of the liberal historical myths pushed by the revisionist media is portraying Gore, Sr. as that great Civil Rights leader (more to bolster Junior) while ignoring that he totally shredded whatever credibility he had on the subject in 1964. By 1970, he was in big trouble, having tried going back to being a “big liberal” again now that the left held sway in the primary. Conservatives didn’t trust him, Blacks were very wary of him. He came within a hair’s breadth of losing renomination, and Bill Brock finished the job in November.

Add to the fact that in the 1970s, TN Democrats were rife with corruption, and it made Baker look like a tower of moral rectitude, locally and nationally (his 1972 opponent was none other than Ray Blanton, who later defeated Lamar! for Governor in 1974, and proceeded to turn his office into arguably the most criminal in the nation by selling pardons and other chicanery. The Dem Speaker of the House, frantic of the damage Blanton was doing, and worried he would pardon hardened criminals en masse in his last week in office, swore in Lamar! early in 1979). Lamar!’s opponent in 1978 was banker Jake Butcher (and friend of Jimmy Carter’s who helped to bring the World’s Fair to Knoxville in 1982), who himself would later go to prison.

With all of this going on with TN Democrats, it’s easy to see why Baker was revered and appeared to be the bulwark against the corruption (along with his performance during the Watergate schtick). Whatever his more liberal inclinations were on the national scene and privately, it never shook his standing in TN (although taking a closer glance at TN and where we were in the early ‘80s as a party, you begin to see the cracks showing, as the party’s leaders were statist and old, and our standing was below that pre-Watergate. Our three leading federal members in 1984 were Baker (elected in 1966), Rep. Jimmy Quillen (elected 1962) & John Duncan (1964), with the only other being freshman Don Sundquist (who had barely beaten Bob Clement for a Middle-West TN seat that was heavily GOP).

The state legislative class wasn’t much to speak of, either. When it came time for someone to step up and run for Baker’s seat, Lamar! outright refused, leaving a hapless Baker flunkie and legislator, Victor Ashe (future Knoxville Mayor and Dubya’s Ambassador to Poland), who was obliterated by then-Congressman Gore, Jr., running as a “moderate” in those days (but soon positioning himself to jump into the 1988 Presidential race to avenge his father, who was still alive then). The Dems in the ‘80s in TN had the younger blood and more go-getter types (Gore, Jr., Jim Cooper, elected at 28 over Howard Baker’s daughter Cissy in 1982, Bob Clement, Harold Ford, Sr., et al). The state was drifting back to the Dems because of the GOP atrophy, and by 1987 (to last until 1995), we reached a nadir unequaled since the 1950s, with the Dems in control of everything (save the Presidential vote, and that fell in 1992 with the Bush, Sr-Perot split).

Anyway, as you can see, I temper my remarks on Baker, and he was part of a much larger story of the time. While I would have preferred more hard-charging Conservatism on his part with an eye towards recruiting and growing a farm team of future players, the situation we faced in TN in that era made these characters a little more heroic than they should’ve been, especially looking at them via what we face at present (and this state was badly in need in ridding it of the corruption of the good ole boy Democrat system — much in the way we need to rid it of the GOP establishment statism and corruption now). Yes, we could’ve and should’ve done better, and some of the mishaps set us back 2 decades (and with the legislature, 4 decades), but it is what it is. Baker and his ilk were the good guys then, now not so much.


37 posted on 06/28/2014 1:12:02 AM PDT by fieldmarshaldj (Resist We Much)
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To: Galactic Overlord-In-Chief

Forgot to ping you to #37... probably wrote too long a post. :-P


38 posted on 06/28/2014 1:12:42 AM PDT by fieldmarshaldj (Resist We Much)
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To: fieldmarshaldj
With Jake Butcher he supported Blanton. His brother CH the other half of the two failures {the other was uninsured Southern Industrial Banking Corp} supported Alexander. They played both sides. By mid June 1982 it was obvious the Worlds Fair was a bust and some investors were going to loose big time as did some very foolish landlords and persons converting carports into apartments to rent at several hundred dollars a night. The Airstream camper parks about 5-6 with several hundred in each park all were empty from day one-closing.

The building of Norris was another matter. Norris Dam was originally basically built to get more electrical power into Knoxville. It's completion was 1936 IIRC. But with the dam came the town of Norris then hose of a number of TVA Offices. It was supposed to be the modern model city and it was federally owned to start out with. City of Norris {a high school, post office, store, and gas station, at that time} had electricity. The persons living along the main highway US 441 running from Norris Dam to Knoxville was not allowed power. TVA claimed it would spoil the scenic quality. I'm talking persons living a half mile out of Norris all the way to Knoxville. After WW2 a local vet began a campaign to get electricity ran up the highway into rural homes near Norris. He had to write congressmen and senators to accomplish it. Power was finally ran in the late 1940's early 1950's to those and other homes. You won't find that history anywhere it was one of my family members involved.

Norris Lake and the boundaries of it including several dikes upstream up stream of the main dam were Civilian Conservation Corps built. Perhaps that can explain the Nebraska senators big interest. Even the high school was named for him and the graduates called Senators. Senator Snipe hows that? LOL. Lot's of supply contracts including huge cans of food, tools, and other goods were purchased. Lot's of money changed hands.

Norris Dam four years later would become a huge local player in the Manhattan Project and also considered a big risk. It's about 20 miles upstream of modern day Oak Ridge.

The War Dept became concerned that an enemy spy could come in and put together an attack using a stolen plane out of Knoxville loaded with explosives and fly into the dam causing a major flood at Oak Ridge. There are old gun placement foundations below the dam for about 2 miles and about a mile downstream a tower and cable still stretch across the river. It was used by the Army to take a hand powered cart across the river to relieve the gunners on watch on the bluff.

FDR's New Deal propaganda in this region was built on a lie portraying very self sufficient people who had been in the region before the nations founding as backward stupid poverty stricken peasants.

If a person understands what they are looking for they can go into the places where TVA bought the communities up and find factories, schools, stores, gas stations, you name it. The Powell and Clinch Rivers were well established thriving communities. It was one of the main water routes and lead to within a few miles of the Cumberland Gap Trail. When the dam was built it cut off a large portion of those communities.

Don't get me wrong. Everyone welcomed electrical power and understood what it would take to bring it. It was how it was done and kept being done that brought wrath upon TVA.

The last straw for many was the Tellico Lake Project in the 1970's & 80's which they built just because they could. This was also the first court test of The Endangered Species Act. Nobody cared about the snail darter. It was used as a tool to bring a federal agency back into control. TVA for decades had abuses much like the EPA today. They wanted and they took. Why Baker and Duncan pushed the bill we'll likely never know. Up till then the dam project was dead. TVA had conceded it wasn't needed. I do know this though. That land became very high dollar communities and the original owners had land taken away that was not a part of the lake.

39 posted on 06/28/2014 4:04:27 AM PDT by cva66snipe ((Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?))
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To: cva66snipe; fieldmarshaldj; Mrs. Don-o; SoConPubbie; SharpRightTurn; noprogs; navymom1; ...

Thanks for the great posts on Tennessee history.

Ping the Beat Lamar! list


40 posted on 06/28/2014 4:16:35 AM PDT by don-o (He will not share His glory and He will NOT be mocked! Blessed be the name of the Lord forever!)
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To: cva66snipe

Thanks for telling more about the TVA backstory.


41 posted on 06/28/2014 4:27:26 AM PDT by fieldmarshaldj (Resist We Much)
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To: Kartographer

He came to Kingsport to speak at our Jaycee annual banquet.

I’ll never forget the comment of my friend’s wife..... “but he’s so short”

My beef was over the damming of the Little T river. TVA made a list of dams back under Roosevelt and the last one was on the Little T. Other than to cross it off the list, many didn’t think it was needed. It flooded the ancestral Cherokee village lands.

TVA condemned and then purchased thousands of acres of prime agricultural land. Then after the dam flooded TVA sold some of the unflooded land. Howard Baker was part of a syndicate that bought it and developed condos and hotels.

Sleezy political act.


42 posted on 06/28/2014 4:33:54 AM PDT by bert ((K.E. N.P. N.C. +12 ..... Obama is public enemy #1)
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To: ckilmer

Must you salt the wounds of the suffering citizens of South Carolina?


43 posted on 06/28/2014 5:33:27 AM PDT by RipSawyer (May the force be with you against the farce.)
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To: fieldmarshaldj

Well said. The Democrat stranglehold on this state was severe until the 60s and 70s. The levels of corruption in the Democrat Party in this state are legendary. The change that took place from the mid 1960s through the 80s was so severe that now even our Democrats have to be pretty conservative to get elected anywhere but in Memphis or Nashville.

Baker was a moderate, and it’s long past time for Lamar to go, but they were a huge improvement on what Tennessee politics had been producing.


44 posted on 06/28/2014 6:26:26 AM PDT by cdcdawg
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To: fieldmarshaldj

Nice history lesson and being a MS native it was educating

Aside from the state intricacies....the South moved to the once hated GOP becuse Dems moved so far left on social issues creating a distinction formerly more gray

McGovern really cemented this and Carters fiasco betrayal

But there were already signs with Ike and Nixon and Barry and Nixon again

My parents were social with the Bakers..dad always said Howard was a lawyer first


45 posted on 06/28/2014 10:08:59 AM PDT by wardaddy (we will not take back our way of life through peaceful means.....i have 5 kids....i fear for them)
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To: bert
My beef was over the damming of the Little T river. TVA made a list of dams back under Roosevelt and the last one was on the Little T. Other than to cross it off the list, many didn’t think it was needed. It flooded the ancestral Cherokee village lands.

Little T {Little Tennessee} already had dams on it built mainly by ALCOA before TVA was formed. But those lakes were back up in the mountains and did not destroy the Cherokee Indian tribe sites and farms that Tellico Lake did. Chilhowie was the last dam on it before Tellico Dam. For those who don't know the area from Chilhowie Lake to upstream Fontana Lake is US 129 The Dragon. The Dragon is a relocated road built when ALCOA built the dams through the area.

Tellico Dam has Zero generation capacity. A channel of sorts was built to connect Tellico Lake with Ft Loudon Lake and Ft Loudon Dam is the generation plant. Before Tellico Lake the Little T emptied into the river below Ft Loudon into Watts Bar Lake. I'm 56 but I remember seeing the burial mounds and farms that were flooded.

One of the biggest ironies of FDR's propaganda about the lakes was to stop soil erosion. My dad grew up in Knoxville in the Lonsdale area and would spend his summers and school weekends in a community called Tampico on the Holston river just below Cherokee Dam before it was built. Him and his brother through the week camped on the river in the summer as kids. On weekends dad would ride a bike from Knoxville to Tampico to camp. About 30-35 miles one way.

Dad showed me where huge river bottom fields once stood that a family he knew farmed and they camped on. The rivers natural water flow was about a third or less of that of what the turbines put out. The rivers below the dams are far wider than the river were themselves. Over time it took out {washed away} the river bottom fields below every dam built. These were very fertile fields the farmers depended on. Again the progress wasn't what angered people it was the lies they used.

46 posted on 06/28/2014 12:12:23 PM PDT by cva66snipe ((Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?))
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To: cva66snipe

I have hiked several times from the Twenty Mile Ranger station up the mountain to Gregory Bald. It is on the Dragon

The thing to do is to go from the camp site up the ridge before sunset and look out across the valley below and see Maryville and Knoxville light up. You can see all the way over Rockwood to the plateau rising behind.

The quiet the stillness with all that light activity is unique..... and then there it is. The hum begins. The generators at the Chilhowee dam come on line.


47 posted on 06/28/2014 12:27:00 PM PDT by bert ((K.E. N.P. N.C. +12 ..... Obama is public enemy #1)
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To: bert

I hiked To Gregory Bald a couple times from the back of Cades Cove when I was a teen. I also hiked into Eagle Creek down to Shuckstack Rock a couple of times for some fishing trips. First time was when the little kids was lost up there. We started up from Cades Cove next morning and didn’t know what was going on. Last hike I took was about 18 years ago up to Thubderhead via Spence Field & Rocky Top. My legs and feet wouldn’t get me but a couple miles on a flat trail now.


48 posted on 06/28/2014 2:32:23 PM PDT by cva66snipe ((Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?))
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To: BlackElk

I know it sux but old Red Plaid Shirt is in zero danger of losing his seat

Carr is running a poorly funded ineffectual campaign

There is a reason a heavier hitting conservative..more so than Lamar...Is not challenging him but im not yet sure what it is...


49 posted on 06/28/2014 8:39:54 PM PDT by wardaddy (we will not take back our way of life through peaceful means.....i have 5 kids....i fear for them)
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To: fieldmarshaldj

Very informative.

Norris was a jag off, profile in courage my eye.


50 posted on 06/28/2014 11:06:08 PM PDT by Impy (RED=COMMUNIST, NOT REPUBLICAN)
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