Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Why the Arab World is Caught in an Emotional Nakba, and How We Keep it There.
Tablet Magazine ^ | June 24, 2014 | Richard Landes

Posted on 06/27/2014 2:06:17 AM PDT by Seeing More Clearly Now

By ignoring the honor-shame dynamic in Arab political culture, is the West keeping itself from making headway toward peace?


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Israel; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: honor; islam; muslims; shame
Professor Richard Landes explains exceedingly well the pathology of shame and violence that define the Muslim mind and the Muslim world.
1 posted on 06/27/2014 2:06:17 AM PDT by Seeing More Clearly Now
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Fred Nerks

Your prediction has become mainstream.


2 posted on 06/27/2014 3:36:45 AM PDT by Candor7 (Obama fascism article:(http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/05/barack_obama_the_quintessentia_1.html))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Fred Nerks

The intrersting aspect unveiled by these jewish social anthropologists is actually unspoken but clearly understood. The Nakba and their “honor” will cause the Arab sects to fight each other, hopefullyto mutual distruction.

Yes, we need to keep them nose to nakba...as long as possible.


3 posted on 06/27/2014 3:44:29 AM PDT by Candor7 (Obama fascism article:(http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/05/barack_obama_the_quintessentia_1.html))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Seeing More Clearly Now

Till muslims renounce violence in the name of their allah they deserve NO respect or understanding, period!


4 posted on 06/27/2014 3:49:46 AM PDT by existentially_kuffer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Candor7

Interesting philosophical inquiry... since the gospel of Jesus Christ solves the problem of being unable to endure a humiliating ordeal, even one that is undeserved, in order to effect a change to the good. No other faith speaks to that directly, though the karma concepts of Hinduism and Buddhism attempt to approach it.


5 posted on 06/27/2014 4:07:07 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Embrace the Lion of Judah and He will roar for you and teach you to roar too. See my page.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: existentially_kuffer

Which attitude is basically a Westernized “honor trap.”


6 posted on 06/27/2014 4:07:54 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Embrace the Lion of Judah and He will roar for you and teach you to roar too. See my page.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Candor7

Shhhh...this is as allah wills it.


7 posted on 06/27/2014 4:44:43 AM PDT by Fred Nerks (fair dinkum)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: dennisw; Cachelot; Nix 2; veronica; Catspaw; knighthawk; Alouette; Optimist; weikel; Lent; GregB; ..
Middle East and terrorism, occasional political and Jewish issues Ping List. High Volume

If you’d like to be on or off, please FR mail me.

..................

8 posted on 06/27/2014 5:20:58 AM PDT by SJackson (wish I had known more firsthand about...problems of American businesspeople as a Senator G McGovern)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Seeing More Clearly Now

Honor? In the Arab world? You might as well ask a tuna about sunstroke.


9 posted on 06/27/2014 5:43:27 AM PDT by IronJack
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: IronJack

You are not familiar with pre/non Christian forms of honor. It basically revolves around self, if something makes you look good, it is honorable. If something makes you look bad it is not honorable.

If you can kill the thing that makes you look bad, you can reclaim your honor.

No my FRiend, they are well versed in old world honor, and it can get you killed if you travel where it holds sway.


10 posted on 06/27/2014 6:30:20 AM PDT by dangerdoc ((this space for rent))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Seeing More Clearly Now

Nobody is keeping them from making headway. If the West understood the honor and shame and its pathologies perfectly, they would still make no headway towards peace or anything else. To do that, they’d have to cast off their Arabness.


11 posted on 06/27/2014 6:46:14 AM PDT by Eleutheria5 (End the occupation. Annex today.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: dangerdoc

Christianity is an offense to the concept of honor. Our God, the very God that spoke the world into existence, took on the form of man, lived in that form with all the indignities of flesh then allowed himself to be stripped, beat, mocked then killed hanging on a cross with criminals.


12 posted on 06/27/2014 6:46:28 AM PDT by dangerdoc ((this space for rent))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: dangerdoc

So we’re not talking about “honor” in the chivalric sense, but the childish obsession with “saving face” that is a hallmark of stunted cultures.


13 posted on 06/27/2014 7:13:10 AM PDT by IronJack
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Seeing More Clearly Now; SJackson

This should be a “must read.” It explains things very well.


14 posted on 06/27/2014 7:20:47 AM PDT by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: dangerdoc

“You are not familiar with pre/non Christian forms of honor. “

Hate to break it to you, but what you are calling “Christian honor” predates Christianity by 1500-2000 years or so.

Started with a guy name Abe.


15 posted on 06/27/2014 7:22:35 AM PDT by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: IronJack

Chivalry, developed in a small part of the world and is a relatively modern invention.

The concept of honor that you refer to as saving face, is much older and more common. I would refer to it as non Christian rather than stunted culture. Those stunted cultures were thriving when the ancestors of those who invented Chivalry were still running through the woods naked and eating raw meat. I’m not trying to say they are better, they are not, but they are the norm for humanity, and exaggerated by the moon god religion.


16 posted on 06/27/2014 7:24:41 AM PDT by dangerdoc ((this space for rent))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Jewbacca

Point taken, I ask your forgiveness.

 


17 posted on 06/27/2014 7:30:54 AM PDT by dangerdoc ((this space for rent))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: dangerdoc

Now that you mention it, you’re probably right about the history of “honor.” The concept of saving face certainly goes back as far as the Trojan War, which was Menelaus’ way of avenging his humiliation by Paris.

Still, that vengeance marks cultures more tribal than civilized. Although I suppose you could describe nationalism (and even imperialism) as saving face writ large.


18 posted on 06/27/2014 8:03:57 AM PDT by IronJack
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: dangerdoc; HiTech RedNeck
Interesting philosophical inquiry... since the gospel of Jesus Christ solves the problem of being unable to endure a humiliating ordeal, even one that is undeserved, in order to effect a change to the good.

Christianity is an offense to the concept of honor. Our God, the very God that spoke the world into existence, took on the form of man, lived in that form with all the indignities of flesh then allowed himself to be stripped, beat, mocked then killed hanging on a cross with criminals.

Exactly. J.P. Holding points out that you really can't understand the Bible unless you understand the honor/shame paradigm. However, it is through the Messiah that God ultimately works the process of breaking down human pride (the craving for worldly honor) and the fear of shame. He did so by taking the same that we rightly feel and placing it all on Yeshua (Jesus) on the Cross, while taking Yeshua's proper honor as the unique Son of God and gifting it to us.

In addition, I would argue that the giving of the Spirit has transformed society gradually away from honor/shame and to an inner awareness (conscience) of right and wrong. One of the challenges we face today is that we've come to take conscience for granted and don't realize how little a role it plays in most cultures, whether you're talking about Arab culture, Asian culture, or black street culture.

Shalom

19 posted on 06/27/2014 8:19:56 AM PDT by Buggman (returnofbenjamin.com - Baruch haBa b'Shem ADONAI!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Seeing More Clearly Now
SHAME, THE ARAB PSYCHE, AND ISLAM
20 posted on 06/27/2014 8:42:30 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: dangerdoc; IronJack

When someone from Asia or the Islamic culture talks about honor, he’s more likely to be thinking about “face”, his esteem and reputation among his peers. Typically, “honor” among Muslims can translate as “a reputation as somebody not to be f-—ed with”.


21 posted on 06/27/2014 8:51:52 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: SunkenCiv; ImaGraftedBranch

Ping.


22 posted on 06/27/2014 9:01:31 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007 (Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: PapaBear3625

To some extent but as a culture, they are walking around with a huge chip on their shoulder. At the dawn of islam, they took a big chunk of the world and although they couldn’t take all of Europe, they got a chunk and were able to look down on the dark age europeans.

Christendom eventually kicked them out of Europe and displaced them as a world power. That loss of honor is a burden to their psyche to this day. They hate us and the only way they can regain that honor is by putting their collective boot on our neck.


23 posted on 06/27/2014 9:10:47 AM PDT by dangerdoc ((this space for rent))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: dangerdoc

No forgiveness needed, but you can certainly have it if you want it.

Just being defensive about my little tribe.


24 posted on 06/27/2014 9:20:41 AM PDT by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: PapaBear3625

I agree. And I reiterate my view that that is a primitive, tribal notion of honor, vastly different than the chivalric code that encompasses moral integrity, purity of motive, and faithfullness to principle even in the face of adversity.

To so many other cultures, truth and honor are negotiable commodities. What’s true on Monday may be false by Tuesday. That’s partly responsible for the abject cowardice demonstrated by so many Arab “soldiers,” who will turn tail and run at the first sign of a setback. And the hyperbolic denials of reality by buffoons like Baghdad Bob. And the duplicitous treachery of our so-called allies in Iraq and Afghanistan, who work beside our troops every day and then one day smuggle in a bomb and murder a dozen of them.

Contrast that with the courage and sacrifice of our men, like the SEAL team in “Lone Survivor” or the recent Medal of Honor recipient Kyle Carpenter (it’s no coincidence it’s called the Medal of HONOR). We could not be the people we are if all we thought of honor was that it was about saving face. That’s the kind of “honor” that permeates the ghetto culture and results in people being shot because they “dissed” someone with a bigger gun, a faster draw, and a shorter temper.


25 posted on 06/27/2014 9:41:47 AM PDT by IronJack
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: dangerdoc
To some extent but as a culture, they are walking around with a huge chip on their shoulder. At the dawn of islam, they took a big chunk of the world and although they couldn’t take all of Europe, they got a chunk and were able to look down on the dark age europeans. Christendom eventually kicked them out of Europe and displaced them as a world power. That loss of honor is a burden to their psyche to this day. They hate us and the only way they can regain that honor is by putting their collective boot on our neck.

Exactly. Their Islamic writings paint the Muslims in general, and Arabs in particular, as a superior people, favored by Allah.

The contrast between that perception and the current reality invites a high degree of cognitive dissonance, which can only be resolved by a self-perception as a superior warrior, and the Westerners' technologically-superior culture just making them more suitable as slaves.

26 posted on 06/27/2014 10:35:36 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: IronJack
To so many other cultures, truth and honor are negotiable commodities. What’s true on Monday may be false by Tuesday. That’s partly responsible for the abject cowardice demonstrated by so many Arabrength “soldiers,” who will turn tail and run at the first sign of a setback. And the hyperbolic denials of reality by buffoons like Baghdad Bob. And the duplicitous treachery of our so-called allies in Iraq and Afghanistan, who work beside our troops every day and then one day smuggle in a bomb and murder a dozen of them.

That's part of the Islamic way of war. They're not really suited for the Western style of war. They are a "raid culture" militarily. They will attack at weakness, and fade away in the face of strength. Their objective is to survive, and thus they win by not losing. They inflict losses on the enemy over the long term, until the enemy gets tired of bleeding.

It's proven to be a winning strategy for them. WHO is currently increasing in power in Afghanistan and Iraq?

I recommend reading the review of The Quranic Concept of War by a member of the US Army Institute of Strategic Studies.

27 posted on 06/27/2014 10:52:23 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: Candor7

http://www.meforum.org/441/why-arabs-lose-wars


28 posted on 06/27/2014 7:08:04 PM PDT by Fred Nerks (fair dinkum)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: PapaBear3625
Oddly enough the Arabs feel no shame when the decapitate their own nor the infidels......

What I do believe is they have been taught by their instructors, parents, teachers and the Koran since childhood to hate and kill.....not to mention the physical and psychological abuse they do to each other and their children as they grow. Thus their personalities are prevented from developing as God intended....so too how their view of life overall is strictly and restricted through the lens of Islam.

Therefore the outcome we see consistently playing out in the East...and in any country where Muslims infiltrate...as one of abuse, crime, death and ultimately destruction....it can go no other way and almost impossible to change the mindset by any human means/p>

29 posted on 06/27/2014 7:18:42 PM PDT by caww
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: caww
Oddly enough the Arabs feel no shame when the decapitate their own nor the infidels......

In the Quranic moral code, to kill an apostate or an infidel who refuses to submit is a GOOD thing. It is REQUIRED of them.

They would feel shame if they failed to kill.

30 posted on 06/28/2014 4:40:46 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: Fred Nerks

“Change is unlikely to come until it occurs in the larger Arab political culture, although the experience of other societies (including our own) suggests that the military can have a democratizing influence on the larger political culture, as officers bring the lessons of their training first into their professional environment, then into the larger society. It obviously makes a big difference, however, when the surrounding political culture is not only avowedly democratic (as are many Middle Eastern states), but functionally so. Until Arab politics begin to change at fundamental levels, Arab armies, whatever the courage or proficiency of individual officers and men, are unlikely to acquire the range of qualities which modern fighting forces require for success on the battlefield. For these qualities depend on inculcating respect, trust, and openness among the members of the armed forces at all levels, and this is the marching music of modern warfare that Arab armies, no matter how much they emulate the corresponding steps, do not want to hear.”

Colonel Norvell De Atkine, U.S. Army(retired):

http://www.meforum.org/441/why-arabs-lose-wars


31 posted on 06/28/2014 6:25:41 AM PDT by Candor7 (Obama fascism article:(http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/05/barack_obama_the_quintessentia_1.html))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: PapaBear3625

As I have mentioned...it is the intense and brutal indoctrination of Islam/hate/and glorifying death to their population, from childhood and throughout, which robs them of the mind and heart God intended they should have...therefore impossible for them to “feel” anything close to “normal” emotions for Islam teachings destroy the natural responses they would otherwise have.

What they do is a matter of choosing to “Obey” thier leaders and the Koran..and their brains have been so fried they lack critical thinking skills to do otherwise.


32 posted on 06/28/2014 8:19:50 AM PDT by caww
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: AdmSmith; AnonymousConservative; Berosus; bigheadfred; Bockscar; cardinal4; ColdOne; ...

Thanks Ultra Sonic 007. Have we ruled out stupidity? Gullibility? Inbreeding? Lack of an actual school system? Poor nutrition? “Crazy with the heat”?


33 posted on 06/28/2014 10:11:23 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson