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Posted on 06/29/2014 7:03:07 AM PDT by Kaslin
Flattus wrote: It's funny to watch Cons attempt to portray this disaster in Iraq as Obama's issue. Sorry, no sale. Thinking Americans know whose war this is. But it's not surprising to see you run from it.From Ron Paul's column today, referring to Necons:
"They cannot admit they were wrong about the invasion being a cakewalk that would pay for itself, so they want to blame last week's events on the 2011 US withdrawal from Iraq. But the trouble started with the 2003 invasion itself, not the 2011 troop withdrawal. Anyone who understands cause and effect should understand this."-- Welcome Our Newest Ally! Iran!
Dear Comrade Flattass,
Doctor Ron Buy Gold at Any Price Paul is an interesting man. Very smart too.
But hes no historian. Or investor.
Half the time I dont even think hes sane.
Why is it that libertarians have given themselves over to a man that they treat more as Saint Paul than they do as just another man?
Because what "Saint" Paul has written about the Iraq war isnt Gospel. It is even accurate.
The trouble in Iraq didnt start in 2003, or in 1990the First Gulf Waror with the toppling of the Shah of Iran in 1979. Or in operation Ajax in 1953 when we deposed the government of Iran and installed the Shah in its place.
Everything in history is part of what came before it.
I have no problem admitting that the Bush administration was wrong in portraying the war as a cakewalk. War should never be declared while dismissing the many disappointments and many unpleasant surprises, that Churchill warned was attendant upon any war. I said this at the time.
War rarely goes as one would wish.
As one Lt. General told me: We had a plan. And it was almost like the purposefully [screwed] it up.
If the second Bush administration made a long-lasting, salient case for American involvement in the overthrow of Saddam Hussein, I dont remember it.
But for Doctor Ron Buy Gold at Any Price Paul to sit back and say the THATS the problem in Iraq now, is either willful ignorance or lack of vision.
Heres the problem in Iraq: They have ten percent of the worlds oil reserves. And there have been, in my lifetime, three powers tussling over the control of the region.
The first is the Soviet Union, popularly styled as Russia today.
The next is Islamic militants, who you cant be rooting forI mean you can be for them, but see the insanity defense about Doctor Ron Buy Gold at Any Price Paul above.
And finally there have been secular dictators, who from time to time have received support from the U.S.
Now you may argue that we should butt out of the Middle East, as Obama and Doctor Ron Buy Gold at Any Price Paul argue, saying: Let them sort it out internally.
But that ignores one reality you cant get past: What is in the best interest of the United States of America?
My America is a great country. My America held fair and free elections in Iraq, a first in the Middle East outside of Israel. My America is a voice of peacefulrelatively speakingchange for Arabs who, just like you, covet freedom-- no matter what urban hipster doofuses like you say.
Is freedom just an American birthright that liberty snobs like you inherited from the blood bought by better men than you?
I dont think so. I think freedom is inalienable.
That means it applies to Iraqis as it does to members of inconsequential third parties like libertarians, who too often just hide their mediocrity behind non-conformity.
Real reform is accomplished by staying and fighting.
There is only one right part of this debate.
If this world is to survive the next 100 years other countries would do better to imitate the United Statesthe totality of our national experience, not the last 20 yearsthan to stick to their outmoded, old fashioned concepts of global real-politik.
The worst misfortune to fall to Iraq was Saddam Hussein.
One might argue that invading Iraq to get rid of him was a mistake. But that doesnt make leaving Iraq afterward right, either by logic or morality. Nor does it make it in the best interest of the United States.
I would like the rest of the world to enjoy the blessings that an old-fashioned butt whopping gave both Germany and Japan.
I want a world that looks more like America, not less.
That, not nuclear-free zones, or cutting carbon, or making marijuana legal, is how the next century will be decided.
And make no mistake: Withdrawing from the world wont make it safer for us. It will just mean we have fewer allies, if any, when fight comes to your front door.
Or are you too busy reading that phony Ayn Rand to know this?
Trying to bring freedom to those who’ve NEVER experienced it in MANY lifetimes is an almost impossible task...
The US should make alliances for strategic purposes and STAY out of areas that don’t directly effect us...
We should have done the world a favor and killed every living thing in Iraq & Afghanistan and told Saudi Arabia to knock it off with the exportation of violent Islam...
How's that Indian reservation called Iraq working out for us?
all will be wonderful now that we left
Didn’t the World Press get its patties in a bunch for the shenanigans at Abu Ghrab? That posted picture sure reminds me of that blissful era.
The invasion WAS a cakewalk.
It was the aftermath that Bush & co. screwed up, then 0bama put in the coffin and sealed it up.
"that would pay for itself,
If it had "paid for itself", you leftists would be bitching about how we stole Iraq's oil.
As they say, hindsight is 20/20.
It did seem worth it at the time to see if a representative style government could be established in at least one corner of a dysfunctional hell hole we call The Middle East. Isreal notwithstanding.
We only added to the likelihood of its short life by engineering "proportional" representation.
The part of that region that was ripe for western style democracy at the time was Iran, not Iraq.
It's too bad we let those people down.
we also stuck it out in Germany and Japan for a wile at the conclusion of that war....Like around 65 years....(so far). The problem in Iraq is that by avoiding little things like that we will soon have the next full scale war ready and waiting for us..
Obama gave you just what you wanted, what are you upset about?
Another day another comment from the irrelevant and often wrong Paul’s
Just don’t know why we care about what they say, think or write about anymore than we would about any insane person or group
The whole charade in Iraq officially became a farce once the U.S. allowed the Iraqi government to adopt a new constitution in 2005 in which Islam is established as the official state religion. If that was the end result of the U.S. military involvement in Iraq from 1990 onward, then I could have told them almost 25 years ago that it was a complete waste of time, lives and money.
See my last post. We didn’t defeat Germany in 1945 and then let them adopt a constitution espousing Nazism. That was a war in which the U.S. thoroughly destroyed the reigning governing structures and cultural underpinnings of its enemies.
Conservative policy in Iraq should be....its not our problem. Conservative policy in Ukraine should be....its not our problem. Conservative policy in Syria should also be.....its not our problem.
He is not long for this mortal coil, the crap he spouts won't effect him in the long run.
Iraq is going to crap under the Democrats.
Afghanistan is going to crap under the Democrats.
Syria is going to crap under the Democrats.
Libya has gone to crap under the Democrats.
The United States has gone to crap under the Democrats.
Score at the timeout:
The Republicans are no great shakes, but the math proves the point.
If we want a Western style government to succeed in Iraq, we have to establish a Western style culture in Iraq. That means eliminating islime and instantly replacing thousands of years of tribal feuds, backward notions of honor and integrity, and a completely different ethic.
It can't be done. Not in 10 years, not in 100.
As long as the barbarians don't export their savagery to us or our friends, I say let them rot in the hell of their own making. There isn't a raghead on earth worth one American life.
You meant to say it’s panties, didn’t you? The answer is, yes they did.
It was because the left didn’t let them do what needed to be done, the same they did in Vietnam
You are so right. There is no such thing as a western worldview in the ME, and that includes Turkey. We lived THERE for 6 years, and I can tell you the ME mindset is one of a kind. All those countries have the same mindset, so one has to understand the ME mindset before trying to make change in the ME.
In the fwiw department, I truly believe that you can’t force a 7th century culture into a 21st century democracy.
As is abundantly clear, the best thing to do is kill them all and let G-d sort them out.
You want to make a practical American-interest-based argument for interventions, I'll listen. But as for "freedom is inalienable": that doesn't obligate America to pay, money nor blood, to get it for anyone else.
No thankies. You never know what you’ll catch.
The Bush administration never portrayed the war as being a “cakewalk, “