Skip to comments.The not-so-great debate: Dr Michael Brown dismantles 'gay' apostate Matthew Vines
Posted on 06/29/2014 7:08:09 PM PDT by NetAddicted
Can you be gay and Christian? Matthew Vines says you can and hes created a viral video and best-selling book defending his view. This Saturday on Up for Debate, Vines joins host Julie Roys to debate author and leading evangelical apologist, Dr. Michael Brown. Is gay monogamy an option for Christians? Is it unloving to reject gay marriage?
Watch as BarbWire contributor Dr. Michael Brown debates self-described gay evangelical Matthew Vines, one of Americas leading false teachers of gay liberation theology. The question (as if there were one) is whether God blesses sodomy-based gay relationships.
In this spectacular Moody Radio debate, presented on both audio and video, Dr. Brown summarily, though lovingly, dismantles the apostate arguments of a clearly frustrated and grossly overmatched Vines.
The ultimate question is whether we will interpret our sexuality through the lens of the Scriptures or whether we will interpret the Scriptures through the lens of our sexuality. See more at: http://www.onenewsnow.com/perspectives/michael-brown/2014/06/07/kirsten-powers-gets-it-dangerously-wrong-on-the-bible-and-homosexuality#sthash.S9FBW5yo.dpuf The ultimate question, asks Dr. Brown, is whether we will interpret our sexuality through the lens of the Scriptures or whether we will interpret the Scriptures through the lens of our sexuality. The answer, of course, is in the question.
I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.
Read more at http://barbwire.com/2014/06/29/great-debate-dr-michael-brown-dismantles-gay-apostate-matthew-vines/#C7PxbKqKBc3lCGmF.99
there is no scripture which encourages homo behavior. When ever marriage is mentioned it is man/woman. Even tho polygamy is in the bible, it is not as God ordained instead it is something Jews appropiated from pagans surrounding them.
Unfortunate that so many Christians are easily swayed by apostates. A guess as a reason why is they are sinning and want to continue in it.
The Bible is enough of an “expert” for me—
Thus said the LORD:
Sodom and Gomorrah, Genesis 18:20-19:22 [from which we get our word “sodomy.”
The Law, Leviticus 18:22; 20:13
The New Testament, Romans 1:26-32; 1 Corinthians 6:9
That’s a big assumption what these people are who reject God’s teaching and lead others astray.
God is judging America by removing the presence of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit leads to conviction of sin and repentance.
Only when people are convicted of their sin can they repent.
Pray for them and for us all who live in this declining nation.
You are using the word “Christian” rather loosely.
True Christians on the contrary are NOT easily swayed by apostates.
True Christians have repented for the forgiveness of their sins and believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who paid the penalty for the sins of the world, as the Bible says, both in the Old Testament and the New Testament.
You must be born again in order to enter the kingdom of God.
Read John, Chapter 3.
As long as believers in Christ are on this earth, the Holy Spirit will be here, because the Holy Spirit indwells believers permanently since their being “delivered from the domain of darkness and transferred to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whome they have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. Colossians 1:13-14
A person, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of his/her salvation and having also believed, was sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit of promise, who was given as a pledge of his/her inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 1:13-14
I don’t what the Bible says about it, but it’s easy enough to know that homosexuality is not normal. This has been known for 20,000+ years and ?10,000,000,000? people ago.
It’s not normal for a member of any species to behave in such a manner that would cause the entire species to go extinct if the behavior was widespread.
This is true. But there were in America’s past decades where ‘great awakenings’ took place. They took place with an admission of sin and repentance.
What of a nation that doesn’t believe sin exists?
America is in decline and will get worse. Soon churches will be shut down by the IRS (lose tax exempt status) if they are unwilling to perform sodomite marriages. Christians can lose their businesses for not baking cakes for these anti-Christ unions.
God is removing his Spirit from the world and will do some completely after the Rapture, which comes closer every day.
The Whore of Babylon is currently rising (ISIS).
Matthew 24:24 - For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Just curious. What does the bible say about divorcees, since half of the US Christians are divorcees.
It’s black and white. You can be a homosexual and still be a Christian. However, you can’t condone PRACTICING it as not a sin and still be a Christian.
I believe there are celibate homosexual Christians.
IF IT WERE POSSIBLE.
PLUS, it is talking about Israel during the time of the end.
I guess the headline writer stopped short of saying Brown ripped Vines a new one...
It has been very troubling to see so many of the Christian artists (musicians) come out as gay. They HAVE to know what they are doing and how it affects the Christian youth.
I pray that they, themselves, are just deceived and will come to their senses, but in the meantime, it behooves parents to be up on everything and everyone their kids listen to.
God says in His Word that when Jesus Christ returns to this earth, He is going to judge ALL nations, including Israel.
Salvation is on an individual basis, not on a national basis. Therefore, whoever is truly repentant and believes in Jesus for the forgiveness of his sins is born again, indwelt and sealed by the Holy Spirit. He has died to sin, his sins were buried with Christ, and he has been raised up to walk in newness of life. Read Ephesians 2:1-10.
Whether it was during an “awakening,” or any other time the above is true.
Yes, I certainly agree that American is in decline and that it will get worse. We are reaping what we have sowed.
The Holy Spirit is removed when the church, in whom He dwells, is removed.
Vines is a lightweight in the ring with Dr. Brown.
I dont what the Bible says about it, but its easy enough to know that homosexuality is not normal. This has been known for 20,000+ years and ?10,000,000,000? people ago.
Its not normal for a member of any species to behave in such a manner that would cause the entire species to go extinct if the behavior was widespread.
So true. If not for modern medicine and condoms, the entire species would have died of AIDS or something similar if it was normal behavior.
God has said it is an abomination before Him.
He has commanded His people not to do it. That means they have a choice. Many have come out of the homosexual lifestyle after repenting from it and receiving God’s forgiveness through Christ.
Michael Vines has fallen into the trap of the deceived, wanting Scripture to be redefined by his own sexual proclivity. He is not open to Biblical interpretation, but instead, trying to set up a straw man argument that he feels no one can deny.
Living in holiness means keeping the uses of sexual function for what God planned them to be.
Great compassion should be extended to all in the throes of sexual temptations. The situation could be compared to that of an electrical junction box where some of the wiring insulation is missing. You are going to get short circuits, and possibly great damage as well as malfunction. But the cure is to call in the electrician to fix it, not marveling at the spritzensparken and letting it melt down.
This could be a quibble of terminology. This isn’t really a “celibate homosexual.” It is a “celibate person having abnormal feelings.”
God isn’t judging anybody for how they feel. (Taunting people about how they feel is Satan’s game.) God only judges people for what they do.
I’ll tell you what it doesn’t say. It does not call it an abomination. In fact God allowed it, but only because of the hardness of His people’s hearts—not because He condoned it. The death penalty was never required for it, and it was never called unnatural.
Homo, on the other hand is referred to as an abomination, it’s the only sin in the Bible that is described as causing the earth itself to want to vomit. It did, under the old law require the death penalty, and was labled an abomination and one of the things God Himself hated most; in the New Testament, it is referred to as unnatural.
There are degrees of sin; and to compare man defiling the very image of God with another man to divorce is almost funny.
Nature itself says homosexuality isn’t right. Although, you may want to point out the dog that humps everything in sight, including other male dogs (which doesn’t make the dog gay)—I get this gay animal claim all the time... You can’t compare humans to animals. What separates us from them, other than God Himself, is the ability to withstand our urges. I’m predisposed to punchng someone I don’t agree with in the nose. But, if I do it I’m held accountable. Even though I was born that way and it’s “just who I am”! There are societal and natural norms that acceptable and not acceptable. Homosexuality is only accepted because of man’s tendency to do that which is wrong. Just becuase there is a consensus, it doesn’t make it right. If that were the case, man-made global warming would be a fact. I’m not saying men/women aren’t predisposed to be attracted to their own sex as a result of their environment, upbringing, etc. What I’m saying is just because they’re predisposed to a certain activity, doesn’t mean they have to act on it. Or, are you going to start excusing peodiphiles, animal “lovers”, murderers, etc.? They’re “predisposed” to a certain activity and only acting on their preference....
A huge problem for homosexual males is that one or both partners are not monogamous. Instead, they actively want to have sex with other males as often as they can. Gay male partners have a neurotic obsession with whether their significant other is cheating on them. It does not matter whether the accusation is true or not; the fear is always there. Nine times of 10 male homosexual couples do not stay together for long periods of time because either one or both are about as many couplings as possible. [Female homosexuals, by contrast, tend to have much more stable, loving, and long term relationships with a partner.]
In so far as gay males raising children — boy children — this is nothing more than pedophiles recruiting young boys and men into their perverted homosexual-pedophile lifestyle. Invariably, the majority of pedophiles have been molested by older males at some point in their early development. [This can happen with female homosexuals too, but females are far, far less aggressive molesters than males.]
Normalizing homosexual marriage is all about giving the perversion of child molestation a patina of dignity. It is all about recruiting a new generation of homosexuals and pedophiles. That is why I find Mr. Matthew Vines totally repulsive and repugnant. He is a servant of Satan and not Christ or God the Father.
I haven’t heard of any do you have examples.
God no longer judges countries. Jesus changed all that. and that was a great debate. it tuned me up.
Where in the world did you get that idea? God judges nations and always will until He rules them all.
Men Account for Almost All Sexual Abuse of Children Cases
An essay on adult sex offenders in the book Sexual Offending Against Children reported:”It is widely believed that the vast majority of sexual abuse is perpetrated by males and that female sex offenders only account for a tiny proportion of offences. Indeed, with 3,000 adult male sex offenders in prison in England and Wales at any one time, the corresponding figure for female sex offenders is 12!”
Kee MacFarlane, et al., writing in Sexual Abuse of Young Children: Evaluation and Treatment report:”The large majority of sexual perpetrators appear to be males (Herman and Hirschman, 1981; Lindholm and Willey, 1983).”
A report by the American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children states: “In both clinical and non-clinical samples, the vast majority of offenders are male.”
A study in the Journal of Sex Research states that “pedophilia does not exist, or is extremely rare, in women.”
A Significant Percentage of Child Sexual Abuse Victims are Boys
According to the Journal of Child Psychiatry: “It was commonly believed fifteen years ago that girls were abused in excess of boys in a ratio of about 9 to 1, but contemporary studies now indicate that the ratio of girls to boys abused has narrowed remarkably. . . . The majority of community studies suggest a . . . ratio . . . in the order of 2 to 4 girls to 1 boy.” Another study found that “some authors now believe that boys may be sexually abused as commonly as girls (Groth, 1978; O’Brien, 1980).”
A study of 457 male sex offenders against children in Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy found that “approximately one-third of these sexual offenders directed their sexual activity against males.”
Sexual Abuse of Boys is Underreported
The actual percentage of child sexual abuse victims who are boys very likely exceeds the above estimates. Many researchers echo the view of the Journal of Child Psychiatry study, which refers to the “under-reporting of the incidence and prevalence of sexual abuse in boys.”
Dr. Robert Johnson, in Medical Aspects of Human Sexuality, reports: “The vast majority of cases of male sexual molestation is not reported. As a result, these young men keep both the incidents and their feelings to themselves.”
The Department of Justice report on child sexual exploitation explains why the percentage of boy victims is underestimated: “Adolescent boy victims are highly likely to deny certain types of sexual activity. . . . They are embarrassed and ashamed of their behavior and rightfully believe that society will not understand their victimization. . . . No matter what the investigator does, most adolescent boys will deny they were victims.”
The Journal of Child Psychiatry adds: “Boys are usually encultured into an ethos where self-reliance, independence and sexual prowess are valued, while showing hurt or homosexuality are denigrated. . . . This may lead to powerful repression or deletion of the experience, with failure to report.”
Homosexuals Comprise Less than 3 Percent of the Population
Relying upon three large data sets: the General Social Survey, the National Health and Social Life Survey, and the U.S. census, a recent study in Demography estimates the number of exclusive male homosexuals in the general population at 2.5 percent, and the number of exclusive lesbians at 1.4 percent.
A study of the sexual behavior of men in the United States based on the National Survey of Men (a nationally representative sample comprised of 3,321 men aged twenty to thirty-nine, published in Family Planning Perspectives), found that “2 percent of sexually active men aged twenty to thirty-nine . . . had had any same-gender sexual activity during the last ten years. Approximately 1 percent of the men (1.3 percent among whites and 0.2 percent among blacks) reported having had exclusively homosexual activity.
J. Gordon Muir, writing in The Wall Street Journal, discusses a number of studies that have found that homosexuals comprise between 1 to 3 percent of the population.
In a survey of studies on homosexuals in different populations, the Archives of Sexual Behavior reported a random sample of Hawaii State residents interviewed by telephone. The study found “just about 3 percent of males and 1.2 percent of females as having engaged in same-sex or bisexual activity.” However, this relatively higher number is attributed to the fact that the study was not limited to exclusive homosexuals, but included all those who at some time in their lives engaged in same-sex activities.
Homosexual Pedophiles are Vastly Overrepresented in Child Sex Abuse Cases
Homosexual pedophiles sexually molest children at a far greater rate compared to the percentage of homosexuals in the general population. A study in the Journal of Sex Research found, as we have noted above, that “approximately one-third of [child sex offenders] had victimized boys and two-thirds had victimized girls.” The authors then make a prescient observation: “Interestingly, this ratio differs substantially from the ratio of gynephiles (men who erotically prefer physically mature females) to androphiles (men who erotically prefer physically mature males), which is at least 20 to 1.”
In other words, although heterosexuals outnumber homosexuals by a ratio of at least 20 to 1, homosexual pedophiles commit about one-third of the total number of child sex offenses.
Similarly, the Archives of Sexual Behavior also noted that homosexual pedophiles are significantly overrepresented in child sex offence cases:
The best epidemiological evidence indicates that only 2 to 4 percent of men attracted to adults prefer men (ACSF Investigators, 1992; Billy et al.,1993; Fay et al.,1989; Johnson et al.,1992); in contrast, around 25 to 40 percent of men attracted to children prefer boys (Blanchard et al.,1999; Gebhard et al.,1965; Mohr et al.,1964). Thus, the rate of homosexual attraction is 6 to 20 times higher among pedophiles.”
The stark imbalance between homosexual and heterosexual child molestationswas confirmed in the Archives of Sexual Behavior study itself, which divided 260 pedophile participants into three groups: “152 heterosexual pedophiles (men with offenses or self-reported attractions involving girls only), 43 bisexual pedophiles (boys and girls), and 65 homosexual pedophiles (boys only).” In other words, 25 percent of the offenders were homosexual pedophiles—or 41 percent if those who molest girls as well as boys are included.
Other studies report an unusually high percentage of child molestations by homosexual pedophiles:
A study on pedophilia in the Psychiatric Journal of the University of Ottawa reported: “According to the literature, findings of a two-to-one ratio of heterosexual to homosexual pedophiles have been documented.”
The Journal of Sex Research reports a study that included “199 offenders against female children and 96 offenders against male children. . . . This would indicate a proportional prevalence of 32 percent of homosexual offenders against children.”
A study of male child sex offenders in Child Abuse and Neglect found that fourteen percent targeted only males, and a further 28 percent chose males as well as females as victims, thus indicating that 42 percent of male pedophiles engaged in homosexual molestation.
I’m sure the homosexual response will be: “Nuh-UH!” Instead of listening to the lies of the left that are supported by feelings only, and not supported by evidence or studies, we should probably listen to the studies that called homosexuality what it is until 1972: a mental problem.
An oft referenced stat (%50) that isn't correct. But let's not quibble. I am trying to draw your inference. Why don't you just state it clearly?
Here is what the bible says about divorce--no divorce after consummation (sexual intercourse). See Matthew 1. Moses permitted "divorce" if iuncleaness was found BEFORE finalizing the contract. Joseph was considering divorcing Mary when he discovered her pregnancy, presumed to be due to fornication before his betrothal (marriage) to her. But this was the only permissible divorce--not after adultery (sex if one or both parties are married). The bible solution for that is death for the adulterer/ess. Only then is the surviving spouse permitted to remarry (see Romans 7:1-4)
There is in fact a far lower divorce rate among Christians. I'll post the study reference.
No sodomite will inherit the kingdom of God. If one is a homo/sodomite (which the bible defines as being reprobate, given over/up by God), then he or she is not saved. Romans 1:26-32. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11. I am tempted to conclude that they may in fact be unsavable at this point--Romans 1 describes the sodomite is so far gone, burning in their disgusting conduct, that they are abandoned by God's influence to draw them to faith and salvation.
Vines uses the typical Leftist world view: all civilizations before the last few years (including God) were woefully stuck in Dark-Aged thinking until the very first “enlightened ones” spontaneously came onto the scene in the 21st Century to repudiate the entire foundation of world history.
What arrogant hubris.
I dont what the Bible says about it, but its easy enough to know that homosexuality is not normal. This has been known for 20,000+ years and ?10,000,000,000? people ago.
...this is the only argument that need be advanced in order to seal the debate...but to invoke religious arguments leads to false interpretations, as it has always done, and will always do...and it allows such charlatans as Vines to preach a phony gospel, and win supporters...
...the real question in this debate is not whether we go extinct...anyone with two functioning brain cells understands that context...but whether we, as a society, can absorb this deviancy in a small subset of our population, and continue on...our resiliency suggests that of course we can...but the corollary argument demands that we work to eliminate that deviancy from spreading, by framing the issue
so as to best reveal its errant nature...
...spouting Scripture won’t get that done, I’m afraid...
where under the new covenant does God refer to nations being judged? What is the violation, what is the judgment and what is the punishment?
wow. are you inferring that my statement that “God doesn’t judge nations any more” implies that i condone anything our nation does politically? nice try. Jesus has paid the price on the cross for all of this sin you describe. the price has been paid. in full. now each individual needs to acknowledge what that event means to them.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
Where are the footnotes published? I’m in an argument with some people about the number of homosexual pedophiles..
Homosexuals are abandoned by G-d? Whoa! Take THAT, Matthew Vine.
Sorry Cuban leaf but you’re wrong on that. You CANNOT be homosexual and still call yourself a Christian. You cannot be for both light and dark at the same time in your chosen identity. Darkness has no business mixing with light. In the end it comes down to the “serving two masters” scenario that Jesus mentioned in the bible. A REAL Christian does not identify with sin after choosing to identify with Christ...it doesn’t work that way. This is why Jesus also said there would be many who will say to him “Lord Lord didn’t we speak in your name” etc who will ultimately be spit out for being lukewarm...homosexual so called Christians being just one type of them.
Imagine if you will, a man who does not find women attractive but is attracted to men. Imagine he comes from a childhood that arguably can be given credit for this flaw in his character.
Now, you are sharing the “good news” with him. He accepts the Lord as his personal savior and goes on living a life of celebacy and praying daily for the Lord to make him heterosexual. But it has not happened yet.
Ignoring any other details out of scope, is this man saved?