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Army to replace 9mm pistol with more reliable gun packing better 'knock down’ power
FoxNews ^ | July 12, 2014 | Joseph Weber

Posted on 07/13/2014 2:21:40 AM PDT by WhiskeyX

The Army wants to retire its supply of 9mm handguns and replace it with a more accurate and user-friendly model that also will provide soldiers with more “knock-down” power.

Army officials say their inventory of more than 200,000 semi-automatic Beretta M9 and Sig Sauer M11 pistols has become outdated, worn out and needs to be replaced with an updated model that also offers more reliability and durability.

(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: army; banglist; pistol
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1 posted on 07/13/2014 2:21:41 AM PDT by WhiskeyX
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To: WhiskeyX

Not dictating the caliber of the new weapon, but is instead “Performance Based Specification”....meaning it has to meet the defined mission. In this case, the article states only that it must demonstrate more knockdown power than a 9mm slug.


2 posted on 07/13/2014 2:26:15 AM PDT by Gaffer
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To: WhiskeyX

WWAYC?

WWAMC?

3 posted on 07/13/2014 2:34:19 AM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out for himself.)
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To: WhiskeyX
Israeli 50 cal

4 posted on 07/13/2014 2:38:36 AM PDT by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (HELL, NO! BE UNGOVERNABLE! --- ISLAM DELENDA EST)
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To: Gaffer
Not dictating the caliber of the new weapon, but is instead “Performance Based Specification”....meaning it has to meet the defined mission. In this case, the article states only that it must demonstrate more knockdown power than a 9mm slug.

You mean knockdown power like the .45 model 1911? It could knock down a shed.

5 posted on 07/13/2014 2:48:42 AM PDT by USCG SimTech (Honored to serve since '71)
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To: WhiskeyX

I’ll take the Sig’s if they don’t want them.....


6 posted on 07/13/2014 2:51:44 AM PDT by F15Eagle (1Jn4:15;5:4-5,11-13;Mt27:50-54;Mk15:33-34;Jn3:17-18,6:69,11:25,14:6,20:31;Ro10:8-11;1Tm2:5-6;Ti3:4-7)
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To: WhiskeyX

Knowning current trends, they’ll give the military BB guns and turn over the existing 9mm to the police departments for free.


7 posted on 07/13/2014 2:51:51 AM PDT by Telepathic Intruder (The only thing the Left has learned from the failures of socialism is not to call it that)
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To: WhiskeyX

“They also are considering new ammunition, which has sparked considerable debate among military and civilian weapons experts, too.”

Interesting. I’m far from an expert, but it’s my understanding that one of the biggest “knockdown” issues here is the military requirement to use FMJ ammo rather than hollow-point or other expanding rounds. It would be interesting to see what they are debating when it comes to ammunition.

As for a replacement...again, I’m not an expert, but I would think a modern pistol chambered in .45 ACP would fit the bill. Especially if they make a magazine that holds more than 7 or 8 rounds for it.


8 posted on 07/13/2014 2:53:29 AM PDT by DemforBush (Whoever double-crosses me and leaves me alive, he understands nothing about Tuco.)
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To: USCG SimTech

Well, you’re right in the normal sense. I own quite a few of them.

However, there are rounds and calibers out there that have the equivalent delivered energy. Additionally, there are other slug designs anywhere from copper jacketed HP compressed powder to newer solid copper designs that open up like a grappling hook on impact.

I don’t think they’re gonna end up with a 45 auto cartridge because of size/weight and magazine sizes. If I had to guess, I’d say they’re gonna go with a .40 SW or maybe even a more exotic design something like a FN 5.7mm.

But, they could well end up surprising us all. Ain’t no telling with acquisition weenies.


9 posted on 07/13/2014 2:57:02 AM PDT by Gaffer
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To: WhiskeyX
replace it with a more accurate and user-friendly model that also will provide soldiers with more “knock-down” power.

While I love the 1911, I seriously doubt that a large number of servicemenbers who are issued a 92FS can out-shoot it.

There are certainly other cartridges that offer more "knock down" power but I have to say that I cannot recall reading an after action incident report in which a service-member, or surviving buddies complain of being in a close quarters situation where the 9mm was inadequate.


10 posted on 07/13/2014 3:04:23 AM PDT by fso301
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To: WhiskeyX
The problem is women. They are too small on average to effectively yield anything larger or more powerful than a 9mm service pistol.

Purhaps its better to just issue M4s, which is mainly the practice anyway.

The original replacement for the 1911A1 was the M1 Carbine. As the purpose of both weapons was to arm soldiers with a primary task other than being a rifleman (artillery, engineers, truck drivers, radio operator, mortar teams, etc.), who would still be in harms way, but couldn't be weighed down by a battle rifle.

After the M1 Carbine was fielded, it didn't totally replace the 1911A1 as intended.

I would say that a carbine is superior to a pistol in all but a very few cases.

11 posted on 07/13/2014 3:36:48 AM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: USCG SimTech

That’s what we all screamed when they switched to the 9mm

Jackasses.


12 posted on 07/13/2014 3:38:36 AM PDT by Mikey_1962 (Democrats have destroyed more cities than Godzilla)
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To: Mikey_1962

We learned the lesson in the Philippines over a hundred years ago that a 38 (9mm) bullet was ineffective against Moro Tribesmen (ROP), but a 45 would do the job.


13 posted on 07/13/2014 3:58:39 AM PDT by 230FMJ (...from my cold, dead, fingers.)
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To: WhiskeyX
Too funny! I remember the Army pushing the 9mm Beretta M92 back in '78 through an entity called the Joint Service Small Arms Program (JSSAP) at Aberdeen Proving Ground. They insisted that 9mm NATO had to be the caliber for "commonality" but what they really meant was that they wanted to get something that was usable by girls. The JSSAP wrote the requirements to exactly fit the Beretta and the other candidate weapons never had a chance from the get go.

I attended a "demonstration" at Aberdeen where white-coated Army specialists (making them "scientists", I guess) took turns firing a .38 Special revolver, a Beretta 92, and a 1911 at cardboard human silhouettes in front of barrels of water. The .38 made six neat holes which slowly drained water, the Beretta made a whole bunch of little holes, then the .45 knocked the silhouette completely off the barrel and a huge hole poured water all over the place!

We Marines stood and cheered and were told by an Army Colonel to shut up. I raised my hand and asked the colonel if "the 9mm is the same caliber the Germans lost WW II with". He got really mad and told me to shut up and sit down which really caused the proceedings to break down.

Seems to me that if you are really going to get serious about killing people that you need a serious weapon. If they can't handle a .45, they shouldn't be wearing a uniform.

14 posted on 07/13/2014 3:58:45 AM PDT by Chainmail (A simple rule of life: if you can be blamed, you're responsible.)
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To: Telepathic Intruder

I’m also thinking along the same line.

In addition to supplying them with rainbow color peace = equal flags .......


15 posted on 07/13/2014 4:10:23 AM PDT by Sir Napsalot (Pravda + Useful Idiots = CCCP; JournOList + Useful Idiots = DopeyChangey!)
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To: WhiskeyX

I say issue everyone who would normally get a pistol, an m4 or sbr’d version of the same.

If you still want to give out pistols, try this:

http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/p220-combat-tb.aspx


16 posted on 07/13/2014 4:13:03 AM PDT by 3Fingas (Sons and Daughters for Freedom and Rededication to the Principles of the U.S. Constitution)
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To: DemforBush

“As for a replacement...again, I’m not an expert, but I would think a modern pistol chambered in .45 ACP would fit the bill. Especially if they make a magazine that holds more than 7 or 8 rounds for it.”

Well, I’m a 1911 guy; packed one everyday while in the army and now own two and often carry when I feel the need. But, designing a magazine capacity beyond seven or eight rounds will require the double stack configuration. The problem with the double stack is that the grip has to be pretty thick causing it to be unwieldy for small males and most women. Personally, when making choices, I prefer the knock down punch of the 45acp and less capacity vs less punch (requiring the double tap technique) and more capacity. Btw, if one does the math, a 15 round 9mm pistol being fired using double tap nets out to same number of take downs as a 7 round 45acp. Besides, hide and watch; new design will require politically correct double/double configuration which sucks - badly....


17 posted on 07/13/2014 4:14:57 AM PDT by snoringbear (E.oGovernment is the Pimp,)
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To: Chainmail

FTR I love my 92 and in general I would say it is better than a 1911 which IMO are more a hobby, but you do make a good point about who or what these days we should be recruiting into the combat arms.


18 posted on 07/13/2014 4:15:44 AM PDT by junta ("Peace is a racket", testimony from crime boss Barrack Hussein Obama.)
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To: USCG SimTech
You mean knockdown power like the .45 model 1911? It could knock down a shed.

Yepper - slow and heavy so it doesn't just punch a clean hole without moving some body mass. Add hollow-point to the equation to make the body absorb all the energy and the shed don't stand a chance.

19 posted on 07/13/2014 4:16:49 AM PDT by trebb (Where in the the hell has my country gone?)
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To: SampleMan
The problem is women. They are too small on average to effectively yield (sic) anything larger or more powerful than a 9mm service pistol

My thoughts exactly. The 45 caliber pistol became standard issue during the Phillipine insurrection. The Moros would wrap themselves with leather thongs as armor and charge the line with thei machetes. The 38 caliber pistol was totally ineffective in stopping the enemy before they reached the front lines.

20 posted on 07/13/2014 4:32:44 AM PDT by Jimmy Valentine's brother ("When leftists donÂ’t get their way, they start shooting people and bombing buildings." - rr)
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To: snoringbear

Never heard of the double tap with the .45.
I love the 1911 but I had an occasion to shoot a Sig 220. Really nice.
IMO the Beretta 92 is too big for the caliber. Kinda a ‘60s era Cadillac with a V6 engine.

One of the reasons for going 9 mm was commonality with allies.
Well, Zer0 has seen to that, no more allies.


21 posted on 07/13/2014 4:39:16 AM PDT by Vinnie
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To: WhiskeyX

Go with the 10mm Auto. ;^)


22 posted on 07/13/2014 4:40:53 AM PDT by Red Steel
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To: Chainmail
"the 9mm is the same caliber the Germans lost WW II with I love that. Never thought about that aspect of German ammunition.
23 posted on 07/13/2014 4:43:30 AM PDT by wally_bert (There are no winners in a game of losers. I'm Tommy Joyce, welcome to the Oriental Lounge.)
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To: F15Eagle

“I’ll take the Sig’s if they don’t want them.....”

Better stil re-barrel them to shoot .357 SIG or .40 S&W. Or replace them with .40 S&W capable SIGS . My 229 will shoot all three. All you need are the barrels ( and in the case of 9mm, a new mag.


24 posted on 07/13/2014 4:47:21 AM PDT by vette6387
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To: Jimmy Valentine's brother

Same problem drug-crazed individuals the cops had to deal with here in the US. Those individuals could take 5 or 6 hits of 9mm ammo and keep on going.


25 posted on 07/13/2014 4:52:57 AM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (Pubbies = national collectivists; Dems = international collectivists; We need a second party!)
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To: WhiskeyX

460 Rowland. It’s what the 45 wanted to be when it grew up.


26 posted on 07/13/2014 4:54:14 AM PDT by dangerdoc ((this space for rent))
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To: wally_bert

People were much smaller back then, and the bullets seemed larger.


27 posted on 07/13/2014 4:57:26 AM PDT by urbanpovertylawcenter (the law and poverty collide in an urban setting and sparks fly)
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To: USCG SimTech
You mean knockdown power like the .45 model 1911? It could knock down a shed.

Added bonus...its made in the United States.

28 posted on 07/13/2014 4:57:30 AM PDT by mac_truck ( Aide toi et dieu t aidera)
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To: DemforBush

The M1911 .45 was used forever and did the trick


29 posted on 07/13/2014 5:02:26 AM PDT by jsanders2001
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To: Vinnie

“Never heard of the double tap with the .45.”

Well, I re-read my post. Guess I didn’t make my statement very clearly. Intent was; 45acp only requires one shot while 9mm requires double tap to do the same results. Sorry, guess I shoulda “double tapped” :)

Btw, in addition to owing a couple of 45acp’s, actually LH Randall’s, decided to make them shooters vs collectables laying in my gun safe, I own the Beretta 92F. I agree that the grip is fatter than it needs to be. Having said though it’s my wife gun of choice we we re-qualify for our CHL’s. Just a side note, she usually shoots max score while I usually have a few flyers. It’s the gun’s fault of course :)


30 posted on 07/13/2014 5:04:55 AM PDT by snoringbear (E.oGovernment is the Pimp,)
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To: Telepathic Intruder
Government bow wows in the Department of Energy or Education will get the 9 MMs. Better to enforce their unconstitutional edicts...
31 posted on 07/13/2014 5:07:14 AM PDT by Eric in the Ozarks (Rip it out by the roots.)
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To: WhiskeyX

More government stupidity. Nothing wrong with the 9mm. Instead of guns, how about ammo for training. Oh, and a single gun simply won’t work for everyone either given the fit in the hand etc. a handgun should be the last resort.


32 posted on 07/13/2014 5:08:58 AM PDT by voicereason (The RNC is like the "One-night stand" you wish you could forget.)
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To: trebb
Yepper - slow and heavy so it doesn't just punch a clean hole without moving some body mass. Add hollow-point to the equation to make the body absorb all the energy and the shed don't stand a chance.

If we toss the Geneva Convention bit which prohibits hollow points, the .357 Sig might be a good choice. More power and heavier bullet than 9mm+P+, not as bulky as .45 ACP.

33 posted on 07/13/2014 5:13:25 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
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To: DemforBush

If I am not mistaken, hollow points are not allowed per Geneva Convention. Which makes the gov’s purchase of billions of hp rounds more interesting.


34 posted on 07/13/2014 5:15:35 AM PDT by demshateGod (The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.)
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To: DemforBush

If I am not mistaken, hollow points are not allowed per Geneva Convention. Which makes the gov’s purchase of billions of hp rounds more interesting.


35 posted on 07/13/2014 5:15:35 AM PDT by demshateGod (The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.)
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To: SampleMan
The problem is women. They are too small on average to effectively yield anything larger or more powerful than a 9mm service pistol.

The problem is the Hague Convention of 1899, Declaration III, which prohibits the use in international warfare of bullets which easily expand or flatten when making contact with the target. There are many excellent 9mm hollow point loads that perform as well as a .45 in most situations.

36 posted on 07/13/2014 5:31:09 AM PDT by Labyrinthos
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To: 230FMJ

I wondered how long it would take for someone to post the historical reason for using the 45. Good for you.


37 posted on 07/13/2014 5:34:33 AM PDT by Morgan in Denver (Democrats: The party of projection politics. The end justifies the means. Do or say anything.)
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To: USCG SimTech

I reload for both. Energy level for 9mm and .45 are about the same and an order of magnitude less than a battle rifle.

FMJ ammo really limits what a pistol can do anyway. You are a little better off with the .45 but the difference in one shot stops is only about 10%.

If you must use a FMJ round, there are some more current cartridges that would offer improvement over both the 9mm and .45.


38 posted on 07/13/2014 5:36:54 AM PDT by dangerdoc ((this space for rent))
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To: SampleMan

“The problem is women. They are too small on average to effectively yield anything larger or more powerful than a 9mm service pistol.”

The MOLLE and MOLLE II gear is impressive in that it can fit either an Anglo male soldier or an Anglo female/Latino male; very versatile. I prefer the older ALICE stuff myself (don’t like Velcro), but the whole modular concept that was improved with MOLLE is exceptional.


39 posted on 07/13/2014 5:36:56 AM PDT by kearnyirish2 (Affirmative action is economic warfare against white males (and therefore white families).)
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To: SampleMan

how in the world are you comparing a rifle as a replacement to a pistol??

The .45 was created because the .38 was not powerful to knock down Moros in the PI

The Springfield A3.03 was the weapon of choice from WWI to WWII, being used effectively by the Marines in the first 2 years of the war

Claiming that a carbine was a replacement for a pistol??
Then why did tankers carry pistols and why did officers carry pistols??


40 posted on 07/13/2014 5:38:07 AM PDT by RaceBannon (Lk 16:31 And he said unto him If they hear not Moses and the prophets neither will theybe persuaded)
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To: Chainmail

I vote for the 44 mag, then they can just issue 44 special ammo to the girls and the Fags.


41 posted on 07/13/2014 5:43:22 AM PDT by Beagle8U (Unions are an Affirmative Action program for Slackers! .)
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To: RaceBannon

Rick Jason carried a carbine.


42 posted on 07/13/2014 5:47:22 AM PDT by PeaRidge
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To: Gaffer
Performance Based Specification

That is code for ... the selection will be political, not technical.

43 posted on 07/13/2014 5:48:35 AM PDT by MosesKnows (Love many, trust few, and always paddle your own canoe.)
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To: UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide

Sold!


44 posted on 07/13/2014 5:49:41 AM PDT by onedoug
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To: WhiskeyX

Hope they sell all the old 9mm’s to the public....I’ll take a few of the Sig’s.......

Not a chance......

And, as I said before - answer is simple: return to the 1911 - only a modern one.........


45 posted on 07/13/2014 5:53:10 AM PDT by Arlis
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To: Chainmail

Re: If they can’t handle a .45, they shouldn’t be wearing a uniform.

Bingo! And this same rule applies to everyone, whether they are a male, gay or a woman.


46 posted on 07/13/2014 5:54:59 AM PDT by Red in Blue PA (When Injustice becomes Law, Resistance Becomes Duty.-Thomas Jefferson)
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To: WhiskeyX

Guess this will help persuade me for the .40 Springfield XD-S rather than the 9mm


47 posted on 07/13/2014 6:00:03 AM PDT by bestintxas (Every time a RINO bites the dust a founding father gets his wings)
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To: snoringbear

I don’t agree with the people claiming the 45 is too much for women. My wife, all 5 ft 4 and 105 lbs of her, loves her S&W 1911 - full size, not a commanders version.


48 posted on 07/13/2014 6:02:03 AM PDT by ThunderSleeps (Stop obarma now! Stop the hussein - insane agenda!)
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To: F15Eagle

I was just thinking I would volunteer to help with the “recycling”


49 posted on 07/13/2014 6:02:38 AM PDT by Mom MD
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To: WhiskeyX

Gotta be able to knock down the American citizens easily.


50 posted on 07/13/2014 6:02:58 AM PDT by Old Yeller (Anything is possible, if you don't know what you're talking about.)
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