Army to replace 9mm pistol with more reliable gun packing better 'knock down’ power

FoxNews ^ | July 12, 2014 | Joseph Weber

[WhiskeyX]

The Army wants to retire its supply of 9mm handguns and replace it with a more accurate and user-friendly model that also will provide soldiers with more “knock-down” power.

Army officials say their inventory of more than 200,000 semi-automatic Beretta M9 and Sig Sauer M11 pistols has become outdated, worn out and needs to be replaced with an updated model that also offers more reliability and durability.

[Gaffer]

Not dictating the caliber of the new weapon, but is instead “Performance Based Specification”....meaning it has to meet the defined mission. In this case, the article states only that it must demonstrate more knockdown power than a 9mm slug.

[2ndDivisionVet]

WWAYC?

WWAMC?

[UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide]

Israeli 50 cal

[USCG SimTech]

Not dictating the caliber of the new weapon, but is instead “Performance Based Specification”....meaning it has to meet the defined mission. In this case, the article states only that it must demonstrate more knockdown power than a 9mm slug.

You mean knockdown power like the .45 model 1911? It could knock down a shed.

[Telepathic Intruder]

Knowning current trends, they’ll give the military BB guns and turn over the existing 9mm to the police departments for free.

[DemforBush]

“They also are considering new ammunition, which has sparked considerable debate among military and civilian weapons experts, too.”

Interesting. I’m far from an expert, but it’s my understanding that one of the biggest “knockdown” issues here is the military requirement to use FMJ ammo rather than hollow-point or other expanding rounds. It would be interesting to see what they are debating when it comes to ammunition.

As for a replacement...again, I’m not an expert, but I would think a modern pistol chambered in .45 ACP would fit the bill. Especially if they make a magazine that holds more than 7 or 8 rounds for it.

[Gaffer]

Well, you’re right in the normal sense. I own quite a few of them.

However, there are rounds and calibers out there that have the equivalent delivered energy. Additionally, there are other slug designs anywhere from copper jacketed HP compressed powder to newer solid copper designs that open up like a grappling hook on impact.

I don’t think they’re gonna end up with a 45 auto cartridge because of size/weight and magazine sizes. If I had to guess, I’d say they’re gonna go with a .40 SW or maybe even a more exotic design something like a FN 5.7mm.

But, they could well end up surprising us all. Ain’t no telling with acquisition weenies.

[fso301]

replace it with a more accurate and user-friendly model that also will provide soldiers with more “knock-down” power.

While I love the 1911, I seriously doubt that a large number of servicemenbers who are issued a 92FS can out-shoot it.

There are certainly other cartridges that offer more "knock down" power but I have to say that I cannot recall reading an after action incident report in which a service-member, or surviving buddies complain of being in a close quarters situation where the 9mm was inadequate.

[SampleMan]

The problem is women. They are too small on average to effectively yield anything larger or more powerful than a 9mm service pistol.

Purhaps its better to just issue M4s, which is mainly the practice anyway.

The original replacement for the 1911A1 was the M1 Carbine. As the purpose of both weapons was to arm soldiers with a primary task other than being a rifleman (artillery, engineers, truck drivers, radio operator, mortar teams, etc.), who would still be in harms way, but couldn't be weighed down by a battle rifle.

After the M1 Carbine was fielded, it didn't totally replace the 1911A1 as intended.

I would say that a carbine is superior to a pistol in all but a very few cases.

[Mikey_1962]

That’s what we all screamed when they switched to the 9mm

Jackasses.

[230FMJ]

We learned the lesson in the Philippines over a hundred years ago that a 38 (9mm) bullet was ineffective against Moro Tribesmen (ROP), but a 45 would do the job.

[Chainmail]

Too funny! I remember the Army pushing the 9mm Beretta M92 back in '78 through an entity called the Joint Service Small Arms Program (JSSAP) at Aberdeen Proving Ground. They insisted that 9mm NATO had to be the caliber for "commonality" but what they really meant was that they wanted to get something that was usable by girls. The JSSAP wrote the requirements to exactly fit the Beretta and the other candidate weapons never had a chance from the get go.

I attended a "demonstration" at Aberdeen where white-coated Army specialists (making them "scientists", I guess) took turns firing a .38 Special revolver, a Beretta 92, and a 1911 at cardboard human silhouettes in front of barrels of water. The .38 made six neat holes which slowly drained water, the Beretta made a whole bunch of little holes, then the .45 knocked the silhouette completely off the barrel and a huge hole poured water all over the place!

We Marines stood and cheered and were told by an Army Colonel to shut up. I raised my hand and asked the colonel if "the 9mm is the same caliber the Germans lost WW II with". He got really mad and told me to shut up and sit down which really caused the proceedings to break down.

Seems to me that if you are really going to get serious about killing people that you need a serious weapon. If they can't handle a .45, they shouldn't be wearing a uniform.

[Sir Napsalot]

I’m also thinking along the same line.

In addition to supplying them with rainbow color peace = equal flags .......

[3Fingas]

I say issue everyone who would normally get a pistol, an m4 or sbr’d version of the same.

If you still want to give out pistols, try this:

http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/p220-combat-tb.aspx

[snoringbear]

“As for a replacement...again, I’m not an expert, but I would think a modern pistol chambered in .45 ACP would fit the bill. Especially if they make a magazine that holds more than 7 or 8 rounds for it.”

Well, I’m a 1911 guy; packed one everyday while in the army and now own two and often carry when I feel the need. But, designing a magazine capacity beyond seven or eight rounds will require the double stack configuration. The problem with the double stack is that the grip has to be pretty thick causing it to be unwieldy for small males and most women. Personally, when making choices, I prefer the knock down punch of the 45acp and less capacity vs less punch (requiring the double tap technique) and more capacity. Btw, if one does the math, a 15 round 9mm pistol being fired using double tap nets out to same number of take downs as a 7 round 45acp. Besides, hide and watch; new design will require politically correct double/double configuration which sucks - badly....

[junta]

FTR I love my 92 and in general I would say it is better than a 1911 which IMO are more a hobby, but you do make a good point about who or what these days we should be recruiting into the combat arms.

[trebb]

You mean knockdown power like the .45 model 1911? It could knock down a shed.

Yepper - slow and heavy so it doesn't just punch a clean hole without moving some body mass. Add hollow-point to the equation to make the body absorb all the energy and the shed don't stand a chance.

[Jimmy Valentine's brother]

The problem is women. They are too small on average to effectively yield (sic) anything larger or more powerful than a 9mm service pistol

My thoughts exactly. The 45 caliber pistol became standard issue during the Phillipine insurrection. The Moros would wrap themselves with leather thongs as armor and charge the line with thei machetes. The 38 caliber pistol was totally ineffective in stopping the enemy before they reached the front lines.