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Did a Russian soldier's trigger finger blow MH17 out of the sky. US says separatists would struggle
Daily Mail UK ^ | 23:34 EST, 18 July 2014 | Associated Press (AP)

Posted on 07/18/2014 11:52:02 PM PDT by Zhang Fei

U.S. Ambassador Samantha Power told an emergency meeting of the U.N. Security Council on Friday that the United States cannot rule out that Russia helped in the launch of the surface-to-air missile that shot down a Malaysia Airlines jet over eastern Ukraine, killing all 298 people on board.

Power said the U.S. believes the plane was likely downed by an SA-11 missile fired from an area in eastern Ukraine controlled by pro-Russian separatists. She said Russia has provided SA-11s and other heavy weapons to the separatists.

Britain's U.N. Ambassador Mark Lyall Grant, who called the emergency meeting, was more emphatic on assessing blame for the crash. And Ms Power it is likely that Russian military personnel were at the controls of the missile battery that downed the airliner.

New intelligence seen by the New York Times, suggest a surface to air missile on Monday shot down a Ukranian military plane from inside Russia’s borders – just days before MH17 was blown apart. It is possible that the same battery was then moved into Ukraine, where it shot down the Malaysian airlines jet liner.

(Excerpt) Read more at dailymail.co.uk ...


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KEYWORDS: mh17; russia; squirrel
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1 posted on 07/18/2014 11:52:03 PM PDT by Zhang Fei
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To: Zhang Fei

Is this the same pootie Pooh that Bush had his soul Mate moment with?


2 posted on 07/18/2014 11:54:39 PM PDT by DariusBane (Liberty and Risk. Flip sides of the same coin. So how much risk will YOU accept? Vive Deco et Vives)
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To: DariusBane

The very same.


3 posted on 07/19/2014 12:00:59 AM PDT by Lurker (Violence is rarely the answer. But when it is it is the only answer.)
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To: DariusBane
Is this the same pootie Pooh that Bush had his soul Mate moment with?

Between Putin, Karzai, Chalabi and Maliki, it's clear that Bush's ability to read people extends only to fellow Americans. BTW, Lois Lerner was appointed to Director of Exampt Organizations in 2006. I have no idea if GWB had any hand in this, but this was obviously a mistake. In this, and many other ways, GWB was a disaster for the GOP. Unfortunately, the alternatives were Gore, Kerry and McCain.

4 posted on 07/19/2014 12:03:25 AM PDT by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
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To: DariusBane

Given the choice between dumb (Bush), evil (Gore), evil (Kerry) and dumber (McCain), I will always choose dumb (Bush).


5 posted on 07/19/2014 12:05:13 AM PDT by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
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To: Zhang Fei

I will hold to my original opinion;

This was a clear case of:

“Hey comrade, hold my bottle of vodka and Watch THIS....”


6 posted on 07/19/2014 12:17:42 AM PDT by bakeneko
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To: Zhang Fei

SA-11?

That’s some mighty interesting hardware to be in the hands of a rebel.


7 posted on 07/19/2014 12:27:25 AM PDT by Antihero101607
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To: Zhang Fei

It this the same Irish woman, married to Cass Sunstein, who has is bringing her vast military prowess to bear? Amazing that suddenly this worthless woman, architect of intervention WITHOUT national interest is being listened to by any conservative. Shes a blithering idiot.


8 posted on 07/19/2014 12:27:47 AM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office.)
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To: DesertRhino

She is part of the “Responsibility To Protect” brigade.


9 posted on 07/19/2014 12:32:00 AM PDT by RushIsMyTeddyBear (Great vid by ShorelineMike! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOZjJk6nbD4&feature=plcp)
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To: DesertRhino
It this the same Irish woman, married to Cass Sunstein, who has is bringing her vast military prowess to bear? Amazing that suddenly this worthless woman, architect of intervention WITHOUT national interest is being listened to by any conservative. Shes a blithering idiot.

The nice thing about being a bigwig at the Federal level is you have the intelligence resources of other government agencies at your disposal. All you have to do is ask. You do realize Bush did not personally plan Operation Enduring or Iraqi Freedom, don't you?

10 posted on 07/19/2014 12:32:39 AM PDT by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
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To: Zhang Fei

I don’t see what difference it makes. A Russian missile fired by a Russian with Putin’s backing, no matter where he was.


11 posted on 07/19/2014 12:39:42 AM PDT by ozzymandus
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To: Antihero101607
SA-11? That’s some mighty interesting hardware to be in the hands of a rebel.

My guess is that the Russians are operating a no-fly zone with Russian SAM batteries in parts of Eastern Ukraine, manned by Russian regulars, but not networking them in with the full suite of eyes and ears so they can maintain plausible deniability. That way, foreign intel can't pin down, via signal intercepts, the fact that Russian troops are fighting an illegal war in Ukraine. The problem with not giving SAM operators all of the info they need is this - they shoot down things they shouldn't, like the MH17.

12 posted on 07/19/2014 12:41:15 AM PDT by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
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To: Zhang Fei

These types of missiles are, while not cutting edge, still sophisticated enough that it takes some knowledge and training to operate. The idea that the Putin’s gangsters and thugs didn’t assist Putin’s proxies in Ukraine is absurd. It is a measure of just how successful the Ukrainians have been in beating back Putin’s proxies that the former KGB thug authorized the use of missiles capable of taking down an aircraft at 33,000 feet. For Putinistas, this should be a moment of pride. Putin had been seen as wavering from his goal of reestablishing the Soviet/Russian empire. This is good evidence for them that he’s doing it on the sly, wink, wink, nod, nod. He’s still got that ambiguity going with plausible denial. His dupes and fans can still say he had nothing to do with it.


13 posted on 07/19/2014 12:43:13 AM PDT by elhombrelibre (Against Obama. Against Putin. Pro-freedom. Pro-US Constitution.)
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To: Antihero101607

I think the Ukranians have about sixty of them. From what I’ve read these systems are about as tough to run as a Nintendo 64 ‘Battletanx’ missiles.
As George Orwell wrote, one of the first casualties of war is truth.
With Obamagumbe, his minions, our alphabet MSMs and the Guardian and other gems like these saying one thing, I’m not jumping on any bandwagon until I see some hard evidence.


14 posted on 07/19/2014 12:50:05 AM PDT by tumblindice (America's founding fathers: all armed conservatives)
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To: tumblindice
From what I’ve read these systems are about as tough to run as a Nintendo 64 ‘Battletanx’ missiles.

Not so. These are not fire-and-forget systems. They have to be guided into the target. You have to be technically proficient to operate them. A guy I know who was a Soviet bloc SAM operator, while a draftee, is as sharp as a tack. I don't think he was assigned to the SAM battery by accident.

15 posted on 07/19/2014 12:57:15 AM PDT by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
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To: Zhang Fei

I’d agree with your assessment. When the Russians put together this whole anti-EU-treaty strategy back in November of 2013...I doubt if they went down the various sequential problems that would occur. This military boss in eastern Ukraine who was a big-Putin player....he’s likely hiding out and worried about either the KGB or some mafia unit coming in to whack him. He’s got a few days of life left in him...before they corner him.

As for the rest of this? If you look at economic issues of the past week, and general Europe discontent over the aircraft shot-down....I’d say the Russian stock-market will take a five-to-ten percent loss by the end of the month. It might trigger a bunch of players to leave that market and actually go to a twenty-percent loss by the end of August. Discontent with Putin? I’d say that whoever dreamed up the Ukraine strategy....really screwed up.


16 posted on 07/19/2014 1:11:51 AM PDT by pepsionice
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To: tumblindice

Fascinating.


17 posted on 07/19/2014 1:21:52 AM PDT by Antihero101607
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To: Zhang Fei

U.S. Ambassador Samantha Power - I stopped right there.


18 posted on 07/19/2014 1:30:55 AM PDT by Perdogg (Ted Cruz-Rand Paul 2016)
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To: Zhang Fei; tumblindice
~Not so. These are not fire-and-forget systems. They have to be guided into the target. You have to be technically proficient to operate them. A guy I know who was a Soviet bloc SAM operator, while a draftee, is as sharp as a tack. I don't think he was assigned to the SAM battery by accident.~ That is how this exact Buk operator's station looks from inside. Not exactly a Nintendo arcade but it is not much more difficult than MS Flight Simulator. It is fire-and-forget indeed. You don't have to manually guide your missile to target, it is radar-guided. And you don't actually need to learn all the buttons to fire a missile and hit aircraft with that.
19 posted on 07/19/2014 1:31:33 AM PDT by wetphoenix
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To: DariusBane

At least with Bush poo tie pooh wasn’t invading other countries and laughing at the US openly.


20 posted on 07/19/2014 1:51:23 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: Zhang Fei; Roscoe Karns
Well, the short answer is *Yes*


21 posted on 07/19/2014 1:57:31 AM PDT by Liberty Valance (Keep a simple manner for a happy life :o)
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To: wetphoenix

If you believe some punk rebel drive this Sam battery, set it up, and shot down the plane all by himself without Russian training and assistance then I have a bridge to sell you.


22 posted on 07/19/2014 1:58:47 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: DariusBane

When Bush was pres he could manage Putin & now with Obama Putin is off the leash and dominating in his region.


23 posted on 07/19/2014 2:08:44 AM PDT by RginTN
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To: driftdiver

It’s Eastern Europe. Back to late 1980s you had to hit three pop-up targets with a dozen rounds between 100 and 150 yards, one of these in full-auto just to graduate a secondary school and be eligible to high-school or college there. They taught kids how to IED a tank using chemicals and equipment one can find in store or how to aim at moving chopper to hit pilot. Tech students were brought from universities to summer camps and taught how to operate these SAMs including fire drills at drones. Give your neighbor’s mail-order bride AK and she would field-strip it in half-minute blindfolded if she isn’t shy enough to keep her skills secret.


24 posted on 07/19/2014 2:13:46 AM PDT by wetphoenix
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To: Zhang Fei

Bush’s “compassionate conservative” was simply nonsense to confuse folks.
No Bush is a conservative and while president both grew the hell big bloated worthless gubmint.
Soooo, lets elect another non-conservative Bush?
Hell no!!


25 posted on 07/19/2014 2:29:32 AM PDT by Joe Boucher ((FUBO) obammy lied and lied and lied)
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To: Zhang Fei

Clandestine Soviet-Russian anti-aircraft or air defense troop units engaged American air forces in combat in Korea and Vietnam.


26 posted on 07/19/2014 2:29:32 AM PDT by WhiskeyX
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To: driftdiver

One minor thing - the one time Putin did was in 2008 (Georgia), when Bush was a lame duck.


27 posted on 07/19/2014 2:40:41 AM PDT by PghBaldy (12/14 - 930am -rampage begins... 12/15 - 1030am - Obama's advance team scouts photo-op locations.)
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To: wetphoenix

You seem to think they are super soldiers when most of them are lazy drunks created by decades of socialism.


28 posted on 07/19/2014 2:49:23 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: driftdiver

~You seem to think they are super soldiers when most of them are lazy drunks created by decades of socialism.~

Many are lazy drunks but they are capable to use weapons, including advanced systems, and more competent in terms of warfare than, say, average American EBT-card holder or Arab terrorists employing spray-and-pray doctrine.
Look at the Balkan Wars and all the wars in FSU during Soviet collapse. They were particularly bloody and involved all sorts of advanced machinery.


29 posted on 07/19/2014 2:56:45 AM PDT by wetphoenix
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To: wetphoenix

Yes, and people forget that Ukraine is not just one big farm: Many people there are technically proficient, computer-wise, too. 2 weeks of training and “good to go”?Not only that, a good number also have had training on a variety of Russian equipment: The militaries used to work closely together, and Ukraine uses the BUK missiles to this day. I’d guess that at least 1/3 of the Ukraine military in the east of the country defected to the separatists - it’s one of the large problems the Ukrainian forces had and to some degree still have.

Still, if Putin handed over a BUK battery to the rebels without hands-on Russian army (clandestine) supervision, he was a fool. Even then, there was the guy on TV* talking about the likely operators’ “dangerous incompetence”: A BUK and a bottle of vodka an hour earlier is not a good combination...

*Related to me by my wife - some “military analyst” I guess, probably on FOX, but I’m not sure of the network.


30 posted on 07/19/2014 3:06:03 AM PDT by Paul R. (Leftists desire to control everything; In the end they invariably control nothing worth a damn.)
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To: Paul R.

In fact rebels has bragged they’ve overrun an air defense base capturing two Buks in late June, though it was reported both were in bad condition.


31 posted on 07/19/2014 3:14:32 AM PDT by wetphoenix
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To: wetphoenix
While the 9K37 Buk system dates from circa 1979, this SAM system has been continually upgraded since then, and the latest versions introduced around 2003 are VERY potent SAM systems that can intercept most targets from low-flying cruise missiles to slower trajectory short-range ballistic missiles. It's possible that the missile that shot down MH 17 was Buk M2 system, and that system is more capable than the famous S-76 Dvina (NATO designation SA-2 Guideline) system from the 1960's.

Being such a sophisticated system, it takes a lot of training to properly operate them, especially in terms of target recognition. It's possible if the separatists were operating them, they didn't know how to use the target recognition system fully, and as such when they fired a missile at what was supposedly another Ukrainian Air Force An-26 military transport, it ended up hitting a commercial jet airliner instead with tragic results.

(By the way, I've read that two Singapore Airlines jets were flying fairly close by at the time MH 17 was shot down. Just a few minutes' change in the time the missile was was and we could be right now trying to explain why a Singapore Airlines Airbus A380-800 carrying circa 455 passengers and flight crew was shot down in the second-worst single plane crash in aviation history.)

32 posted on 07/19/2014 3:21:23 AM PDT by RayChuang88 (FairTax: America's economic cure)
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To: Zhang Fei
He asked why Ukraine allowed civilian aircraft to fly over an area where military clashes and airstrikes were taking place...

Someone should ask him why Russia allows civilian aircraft to fly over Donetsk which is bordered on 3 sides by Russia.

33 posted on 07/19/2014 3:35:23 AM PDT by Uncle Chip
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To: bakeneko

I can see that happening.
A little boredom a little vodka and a new toy.


34 posted on 07/19/2014 3:36:09 AM PDT by sopwith (LIVE FREE OR DIE)
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To: wetphoenix

35 posted on 07/19/2014 3:48:30 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: Zhang Fei

While I would be the first to agree that GWB made mistakes in office but, when will people get over bashing Bush and put it to rest? The fish that needs to “fry” continues to occupy the White House. Odumbo has done more harm, and continues to do more harm to this nation than anything Bush ever tried to do or did.


36 posted on 07/19/2014 4:05:35 AM PDT by DaveA37
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To: RayChuang88

~Being such a sophisticated system, it takes a lot of training to properly operate them, especially in terms of target recognition. It’s possible if the separatists were operating them, they didn’t know how to use the target recognition system fully, and as such when they fired a missile at what was supposedly another Ukrainian Air Force An-26 military transport, it ended up hitting a commercial jet airliner instead with tragic results.~

It is a regimental level highly automated system. In Russia it is operated by tankmen, not air defence forces. Target recognition is not a strong point of this thing because main idea behing BUK is to deny airspace in warzone over certain area for safe deployment of ground troops it’s assigned to protect.

You can read only basic info on your target like radar signature, altitude, airspeed and course from interface in base model and it is extremely easy to use.

Of course, competent operator can distigtuish between small attacking fighter-bomber and airliner based on limited indicators above but it is not the case for a noob who are still able to lock on and hit target like it is a video game.


37 posted on 07/19/2014 4:09:16 AM PDT by wetphoenix
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To: wetphoenix

I’m guessing the GO button is under the flap on the panel with nothing else around it? The switch or keyhole next to it is the ARM switch? My Russion Missile knowledge comes from Spys Like Us, and I’d be Chevy Chase with the rock. I don’t doubt that someone could learn to select a target from the screen and fire in a 10 minute session. Knowing what to shoot at would be harder. The kind of scenario where an airline gets shot down.


38 posted on 07/19/2014 4:27:28 AM PDT by NYFriend
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To: wetphoenix

Where do you get serviceable missiles?


39 posted on 07/19/2014 4:33:49 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: Zhang Fei

I’m not sure what difference it would make who actually fired the missile that brought down the aircraft. I don’t know anyone who believes that this incident involved the deliberate downing of a civilian aircraft (every indication is that the culprits thought they were shooting at a military jet) ... which means the Ukrainians/Russians will simply join a growing list of military forces — including the United States — who have done this sort of thing.


40 posted on 07/19/2014 4:34:01 AM PDT by Alberta's Child ("What in the wide, wide world of sports is goin' on here?")
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To: Zhang Fei

“New intelligence seen by the New York Times, suggest a surface to air missile on Monday shot down a Ukranian military plane from inside Russia’s borders – just days before MH17 was blown apart.”

So planes are being shot down and airlines STILL fly over the area like it’s no big deal...

By the say, the Buk system was developed in 1979, there were certainly PLENTY of them in Ukraine when the Soviet Union broke up.


41 posted on 07/19/2014 4:39:56 AM PDT by BobL
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To: driftdiver

Shelf life of missile is 10 years. It is extandable with little service. BTW, Eastern Ukraine is filled with defence companies, including specialized in missile technology. Half of Russian ICBMs maintenance is outsourced to East Ukrainian companies.


42 posted on 07/19/2014 4:56:20 AM PDT by wetphoenix
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To: BobL

~By the say, the Buk system was developed in 1979, there were certainly PLENTY of them in Ukraine when the Soviet Union broke up.~

About 60, many were lost to rebels though, some with defecting crews.


43 posted on 07/19/2014 4:58:07 AM PDT by wetphoenix
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To: NYFriend

You got it without any training at all. Now we can call it a user-friendly interface. Microsoft should take notes.


44 posted on 07/19/2014 4:59:27 AM PDT by wetphoenix
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To: wetphoenix

“About 60, many were lost to rebels though, some with defecting crews.”

Me and my typos. Anyway, I won’t deny they’re scattered around and typically the people that we call rebels are simply military units that have broken off, taken their weapons, and are fighting the central government, as I’m sure is the case here.

It’s just that people are saying that the ONLY way the Buks could be in the hands of the rebels is if Putin personally gave them to the rebels...while that certainly could be true, it DOES NOT have to be the case here.


45 posted on 07/19/2014 5:02:55 AM PDT by BobL
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To: Zhang Fei

Yawn.

The distraction’s not working on me.

In other news, I have this event to thank for finding this

http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/world/

Apparently you can fly against specific defensive systems

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=103674

Looks like a cool game/simulation.

.02:

I’m really tiring of the news cycle being overrun with this garbage and supplanting the proper place of the border ‘crisis’ perpetrated by our own ‘Puti’

(I write that sardonically, as there is no comparison to Putin from the Puppet save for the fact that the Puppet should be getting just as much negative attention for the ‘refugee’ crisis here...i.e., ‘the press’...but he’s NOT)


46 posted on 07/19/2014 5:12:32 AM PDT by logi_cal869
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To: wetphoenix

So how bout that bridge? Its barely used, only driven over on Sundays by old women.


47 posted on 07/19/2014 5:15:50 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: driftdiver

@”If you like your bridge, you can keep it”


48 posted on 07/19/2014 5:18:27 AM PDT by wetphoenix
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To: DesertRhino

True, some around here must think that red headed wife of Cass Sunstein is being honest.

Funny how quick we actually buy Obama admin blather when we want to. No wonder Obama always wins.


49 posted on 07/19/2014 5:19:57 AM PDT by dforest
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To: DesertRhino
It this the same Irish woman, married to Cass Sunstein, who has is bringing her vast military prowess to bear? Amazing that suddenly this worthless woman, architect of intervention WITHOUT national interest is being listened to by any conservative. Shes a blithering idiot.

So then you're saying it was the Ukrainian army that did it?

50 posted on 07/19/2014 5:25:03 AM PDT by DoodleDawg
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