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IRS gives full account of lost Lerner emails
Politico ^ | July 18, 2014 | Rachael Bade

Posted on 07/19/2014 10:41:07 AM PDT by Innovative

The IRS declared under oath and penalty of perjury on Friday that Lois Lerner’s hard drive is irrecoverable after being wiped clean by tech staff and recycled with an outside contractor, according to a court filing.

(Excerpt) Read more at politico.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Extended News; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: computers; computerservers; data; howtostealanelection; irs; israel; lerner; lostemails; obama; partisanwitchhunt; smidgen; teaparty; truethevote
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Why is the news media keep reporting it this way, ignoring the FACT that emails are NOT stored on people's personal computers but on servers which are also backed up.

Your computer can crash, but your emails are safe on the servers.

Why isn't someone looking on the servers?

The nonsense that they are only kept for six months on the servers at the IRS is beyond ridiculous.

We have to keep our tax returns for seven YEARS and they only keep emails for six months?!

Why aren't Republicans and Fox News shows, not to mention CONGRESS, pointing out this painfully obvious FACT?

We shouldn't care about her hard drive at all.

Not to mention that hard drives are also backed up daily -- everything on the hard drive can be recovered immediately from the servers.

1 posted on 07/19/2014 10:41:07 AM PDT by Innovative
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To: Innovative
The only question left is "Who gets to go to jail?"
2 posted on 07/19/2014 10:42:30 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum ("The man who damns money obtained it dishonorably; the man who respects it earned it." --Ayn Rand)
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To: Innovative

‘Why is the news media keep reporting it this way, ignoring the FACT that emails are NOT stored on people’s personal computers but on servers which are also backed up.”


Excellent point and beats the poop out of me. Of course, IRS emails may only be stored on the hard drives, they are insular, but your point is VERY well taken.


3 posted on 07/19/2014 10:43:11 AM PDT by RIghtwardHo
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To: Innovative

“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” ~ Voltaire


4 posted on 07/19/2014 10:43:34 AM PDT by null and void (If Bill Clinton was the first black president, why isn't Barack Obama the first woman president?)
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To: Innovative

no more taxes then.
why should we pay for incompetence?


5 posted on 07/19/2014 10:44:36 AM PDT by longfellow (Bill Maher, the 21st hijacker.)
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To: RIghtwardHo

The media thinks by reporting the facts prematurely they kill the story ignoring the facts that impeding the facts pisses us off!


6 posted on 07/19/2014 10:45:21 AM PDT by sr4402
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To: Innovative

“IRS gives full account of lost Lerner emails. Yeah, that’s the ticket,” said Tommy Flanagan, IRS spokesman in his first gig since appearing as the Pathological Liar on SNL.


7 posted on 07/19/2014 10:45:24 AM PDT by Amagi (Lenin: "Socialized Medicine is the Keystone to the Arch of the Socialist State.")
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To: RIghtwardHo; Innovative
Plausable deniability.

I once told my (then) 9 or 10 yr old son to pick up your room ...

He DID ...

and put it all under the bed and in the closet

8 posted on 07/19/2014 10:45:24 AM PDT by knarf (I say things that are true .. I have no proof .. but they're true.)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

More than one person better see Prison over this.


9 posted on 07/19/2014 10:45:35 AM PDT by MaxMax (Pay Attention and you'll be pissed off too! FIRE BOEHNER, NOW!)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

I’ll take “nobody” for $1000, Alex.


10 posted on 07/19/2014 10:45:54 AM PDT by Fresh Wind (The last remnants of the Old Republic have been swept away.)
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To: Innovative

If they can’t even say for sure where their equipment is, how can they say for sure where their data is, or isn’t?


11 posted on 07/19/2014 10:46:11 AM PDT by tacticalogic
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To: RIghtwardHo

“IRS emails may only be stored on the hard drives”

Be serious!

Even before the 9-11 attacks, emails of all companies and government are backed up. This increased significantly to the point of having them backed up in multiple geographically different locations as well — and especially for major government organizations, such as the IRS!


12 posted on 07/19/2014 10:46:50 AM PDT by Innovative ("Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing." -- Vince Lombardi)
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To: null and void

Fitting quote.....the later part is coming...


13 posted on 07/19/2014 10:47:30 AM PDT by Popman ("Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God" - Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Innovative

The IRS should be judged by it’s own rules.

If I declared my hard drive lost or irrevocably damaged, the IRS would deem me to be guilty of the worst case scenario tax exposure wise.

I say judge those closest to the hard drive fiasco to be guilty of the worst case scenario crime wise.

We need to defund the IRS. Come up with an alternative way of collecting taxes that doesn’t require 97.5% of the IRS staff, implement it, and be done with it.


14 posted on 07/19/2014 10:47:33 AM PDT by DoughtyOne (Think how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of them are stupider than that.)
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To: Innovative

Obviously, because they have been told that these emails are not to become public. One excuse is as good as another...


15 posted on 07/19/2014 10:47:50 AM PDT by bigbob (The best way to get a bad law repealed is to enforce it strictly. Abraham Lincoln)
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To: Innovative
IRS gives full account of lost Lerner emails

Yeah, that's the ticket ...

16 posted on 07/19/2014 10:48:18 AM PDT by Liberty Valance (Keep a simple manner for a happy life :o)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

I heard an IT guy on FOX say that all these IRS people also had Blackberries that would have contained the same emails.


17 posted on 07/19/2014 10:48:25 AM PDT by Eva
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To: MaxMax

The penalty must be death for crimes agains the Republic


18 posted on 07/19/2014 10:48:33 AM PDT by bert ((K.E.; N.P.; GOPc.;+12 ..... Obama is public enemy #1)
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To: Innovative

Are they admitting they have her old drive?

If so, they are lying about it being irecoverable.

If it is irrecoverable they De-Mil’d the drive.

That is, it was written over at least 7 times using various methods.


19 posted on 07/19/2014 10:48:58 AM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously-you won't live through it anyway-Enjoy Yourself ala Louis Prima)
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To: Innovative

“We smashed it and the others up good”

They need to Stalinsplain the effort by Ms. Lerner to skirt transparency in this matter by seeking instant messaging (and other?) non-archived means of communication.

The EPA is on record illegally using private email accounts to conspire against political enemies.

How about the IRS?


20 posted on 07/19/2014 10:49:18 AM PDT by a fool in paradise (Elian Gonzalez sought asylum and was sent back to Cuba, send these kids back to THEIR parents.)
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To: Innovative

* ALINSKY’S RULE 3: “Whenever possible, go outside the expertise of the enemy.” Look for ways to increase insecurity, anxiety and uncertainty. (This happens all the time. Watch how many organizations under attack are blind-sided by seemingly irrelevant arguments that they are then forced to address.)


21 posted on 07/19/2014 10:50:36 AM PDT by Oldeconomybuyer (The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.)
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To: Eva

Blackberries do have limited storage — they, as the computers access the servers, from where they download the emails they want to read, but that doesn’t impact their staying on the servers, unless they are DELIBERATELY DELETED.


22 posted on 07/19/2014 10:50:40 AM PDT by Innovative ("Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing." -- Vince Lombardi)
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To: tacticalogic

how can they say for sure .. WHAT their data says ?


23 posted on 07/19/2014 10:51:22 AM PDT by knarf (I say things that are true .. I have no proof .. but they're true.)
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To: Innovative

There oughta be a law — Oh, wait, there is.


24 posted on 07/19/2014 10:51:34 AM PDT by AmericanVictory (Should we be more like them or they more like we used to be?)
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To: Innovative

The “full account” is to restate the excuse?


25 posted on 07/19/2014 10:52:39 AM PDT by BenLurkin (This is not a statement of fact. It is either opinion or satire; or both.)
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To: Innovative
....IRS gives full account of lost Lerner emails....

what a ridiculously deceptive headline...

26 posted on 07/19/2014 10:53:08 AM PDT by rolling_stone (1984)
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To: DoughtyOne

how about the state collects the taxes, cuts a percentage check to Sam and everybody just walks away


27 posted on 07/19/2014 10:53:17 AM PDT by knarf (I say things that are true .. I have no proof .. but they're true.)
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To: Innovative

“Honest teacher! The dog ate my homework, and he puked some of it back up. But it must have tasted good to him, because he went and ate seven other kid’s homework.”


28 posted on 07/19/2014 10:53:21 AM PDT by blueunicorn6 ("A crack shot and a good dancer")
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To: Innovative

Anyone involved in this conspiracy is a felon.

Anyone who believes the story is a fool.

Anyone who has seen federal contractor’s requirements for data security, access, backup, etc. knows the redundancy and audit trail that are required, just as Uncle Sam requires them of himself - mostly because redundancy of equipment and procedures equals redundancy of staffing i.e. more federal workers to vote Democrat.

The point is that the fed’s own standard practices make this story even more preposterous.

Some clever Congressman should solicit IT volunteers to recover the e-mails the IRS says it can’t or won’t produce. The volunteers will sign non-disclosures since the IRS will predictably cite taxpayer privacy. When a flood of consultants much smarter and motivated than the fed’s cube critters are set loose on the project let’s see what happens next.


29 posted on 07/19/2014 10:54:04 AM PDT by relictele (Principiis obsta & Finem respice - Resist The Beginnings & Consider The Ends)
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To: Innovative

Technically a hard drive that crashes is destroyed, NOT wiped and recycled.


30 posted on 07/19/2014 10:55:27 AM PDT by Monorprise
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To: Innovative
ignoring the FACT that emails are NOT stored on people's personal computers but on servers which are also backed up.

Where emails are stored depends on the architecture of the email system. Typical consumer email systems which provide web access store the emails on the server. Systems using IMAP or Microsoft's MAPI protocols typically keep the emails on the server. But on systems using the POP3 protocol emails are downloaded from the mail server to the system running the mail reader and are either immediately or some time later deleted from the server.

So if Ms. Lerner and her fellow IRS employees used POP3 protocol mail readers, then it would be possible that the mail did not exist on any server within a few days of the receipt of the email. Of course either backups of the local email files, or some other email retention strategy should have been in place as required by law. And the idea that the IT folks in the IRS are so inept as to not have backups of their systems is while possible, not likely.

Needless to say both the decision to destroy the hard drive's contents, and to delete or write over backups once an investigation was underway seems highly irregular.

31 posted on 07/19/2014 10:57:25 AM PDT by freeandfreezing
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To: Fresh Wind

“I’ll take “nobody” for $1000, Alex.”

Coulda sworn I saw Nosmo King do it.............


32 posted on 07/19/2014 10:58:46 AM PDT by litehaus (A memory tooooo long)
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To: Innovative

“Under oath” don’t mean squat to establishment government bureaucrats or RATs but I repeat myself.


33 posted on 07/19/2014 10:58:48 AM PDT by uncitizen (Buckle up! We're on the Facism Fast Track!)
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To: AmericanVictory

It seems IRS has records going back to 1791, but couldn’t keep Lerner’s emails for more than six months!

Records of the Internal Revenue Service [IRS]

(Record Group 58)
1791-1996

http://www.archives.gov/research/guide-fed-records/groups/058.html


34 posted on 07/19/2014 11:00:34 AM PDT by Innovative ("Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing." -- Vince Lombardi)
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To: Innovative

It was wiped clean, recycled, given to an outside contractor who then hit it numerous times with a sledge hammer and threw it into an active volcano.


35 posted on 07/19/2014 11:03:28 AM PDT by Starstruck (If my reply offends, you probably don't understand sarcasm or criticism...or do.)
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To: freeandfreezing

“So if Ms. Lerner and her fellow IRS employees used POP3 protocol mail readers, then it would be possible that the mail did not exist on any server within a few days of the receipt of the email. Of course either backups of the local email files, or some other email retention strategy should have been in place as required by law.”

Be serious — we are not talking about someone’s home emails, we are talking about the IRS!


36 posted on 07/19/2014 11:03:36 AM PDT by Innovative ("Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing." -- Vince Lombardi)
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37 posted on 07/19/2014 11:04:22 AM PDT by musicman (Until I see the REAL Long Form Vault BC, he's just "PRES__ENT" Obama = Without "ID")
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To: freeandfreezing

If she was using POP3, then she wouldn’t be able to check her email anywhere other than where she happened to be logged into. I imagine someone as high up in the IRS as Lerner travels quite a bit. Even if she was using a PST file, she’d have to have it in a central server location so she could access it from other IRS locations.


38 posted on 07/19/2014 11:06:34 AM PDT by Future Snake Eater (CrossFit.com)
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To: longfellow
no more taxes then.
why should we pay for incompetence?

My exact thought after having to call the IRS this past week. The employees were either completely rude or obtuse beyond imagination. We desperately need to take the IRS down and flatten out our tax code. These people should not be living off our dime.

39 posted on 07/19/2014 11:07:05 AM PDT by Ghost of SVR4 (So many are so hopelessly dependent on the government that they will fight to protect it.)
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To: knarf

I’m not against it in principle, but it seems to me an agency would need to be present in each state for enforcement.

I lean more along the lines of a national income tax. If the general withholding were done away with, this would appeal to me.

The individual would instantly no longer be scrutinized. Each citizen would pay sales tax on non-essentials. Food, medicine, medical services, and medical equipment should be exempted.

I believe housing should also be exempted, at least for the primary residency.

I’m sure some folks could tweak this better than I have here, but my essential goal is the completely slice off the IRS or any follow-on agency.


40 posted on 07/19/2014 11:10:17 AM PDT by DoughtyOne (Think how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of them are stupider than that.)
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To: null and void

That “Voltaire” guy sounds like a smart fellow.


41 posted on 07/19/2014 11:10:54 AM PDT by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: knarf

asking a lot of a kid to pick up his room..

considering it’s connected to the house. that’s a lot of weight to lift!


42 posted on 07/19/2014 11:13:05 AM PDT by cableguymn (It's time for a second political party.)
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To: litehaus

I’m telling ya, they are going to the records of all those in the IT department trying to find a republican.. Once they do.

That poor guy is dead meat..


43 posted on 07/19/2014 11:15:54 AM PDT by cableguymn (It's time for a second political party.)
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To: Innovative

When an individual is charged with a crime they are innocent until proven guilty. I assume this is partly because on one side you have a person and on the other you have the entire weight of government with its policing powers, infinite financial ability to prosecute, persecute, hound, jail, fine and so on. The balance of power is not balanced. THEREFORE, perhaps there should be a law which dictates that when the government is accused of wrongdoing against a citizen or citizens, the reverse is the case: GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT...and for the same reason. With their vast powers should come the burden of proving they did NOT break laws which harm citizens. They have the ability to prove their innocence, had they done their due diligence for which they are well-paid. It should be on them and if they can’t show their innocence because of missing documentation then it is assumed, or should be, that they have guilt. (Taking into account you can’t prove a negative and so on). Maybe I haven’t thought this through and I am thinking nonsensically, but at the moment it sounds right.


44 posted on 07/19/2014 11:19:51 AM PDT by Anima Mundi (Envy is just passive, lazy greed.)
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To: Innovative

PST files can be stored on the local. If you lose your hard drive they can be lost. If it is important these files also will be backed up somewhere. Banks and other financial companies are required by FDIC to keep a record of all e-mails for many employees. HIPPA has laws the require the keeping medical records and some e-mails. Both these laws include criminal prosecution of those deliberately of negligently destroy e-mails records. This includes both the people the e-mails belong to and the IT personal that maintains the e-mail system.


45 posted on 07/19/2014 11:25:40 AM PDT by ThomasThomas (What is the differnce in spontinaity and ADD?)
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To: Innovative
If she was using a laptop she might have pulled the files to her hard drive, but it still doesn't relieve the agency's obligation to archive that kind of work.

The IT issues in government are massive. Look at Bradley Manning. Who would give a SPC 4 access to diplomatic traffic that has nothing to do with his/her job? Setting limits to access is one of the principals of IT security. I am getting ready to transfer and the IT loser in my office want to burn all my stuff to a CD. All my stuff is on a server and evidently he can't migrate it for me. Insane.

46 posted on 07/19/2014 11:30:15 AM PDT by USNBandit (sarcasm engaged at all times)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

The only way any of these crooks would ever go to jail is if the “people” sentenced them.


47 posted on 07/19/2014 11:31:57 AM PDT by VerySadAmerican (Liberals were raised by women or wimps. And they're all stupid.)
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To: freeandfreezing

The judicial authorities need to explore that level of the technology which the IRS uses.

The central point is that a hard drive is a piece of machinery and it is NOT — in itself — interesting. No one is REALLY interested in Lois Lerner’s hard drive. So, finding out the specific details of what happened to her hard drive is not (necessarily) a decent answer to the subpoena.

What is wanted is information about her EMAILS. Now, if the fact is that the emails only resided on that hard drive, then knowing the fate of the hard drive has relevance. But before we reach that conclusion, we do need to know the architecture of the email system.

A techie from the IRS needs to go under oath and explain how the IRS email works. A broad, technical explanation at the organizational level. That discussion isn’t about Lois Lerner, and it’s not about a specific hard drive which may or may not have been recycled on a specific date.

From the standpoint of the architecture of the IRS email system — WHERE do the emails reside?? Because the law says the IRS needs to keep them, and if their architecture really depends on emails being stored in a decentralized fashion on thousands of individual hard drives, then I would be AMAZED.


48 posted on 07/19/2014 11:34:43 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy ("Harvey Dent, can we trust him?" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBsdV--kLoQ)
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To: USNBandit
I can see the underlying concept here. My email admin is always screaming at me to archive me emails, since I get a few thousand a month relating to operations. I archive them to a network drive but also have the option to archive to my local drive, which I don't do because that is not backed up. So Lerner COULD have been archiving older emails to her hard drive. However, she should have still had about six months worth on the server. Which is why, IMO, the IRS got rid of their email archival software and delayed coming forward - to give time for those emails to age off the server. And wiping a hard drive that you know has content that is under subpeona? The person who drove that decision should be dragged into jail for contempt - but probably will not be.

The House investigators HAVE to start putting heat on people so they will start turning on each other. Right now, they have no incentive because Holder sure as heck isn't going to prosecute.

49 posted on 07/19/2014 11:35:09 AM PDT by dirtboy
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To: RIghtwardHo; Innovative
‘Why is the news media keep reporting it this way, ignoring the FACT that emails are NOT stored on people’s personal computers but on servers which are also backed up.”

Excellent point and beats the poop out of me. Of course, IRS emails may only be stored on the hard drives, they are insular, but your point is VERY well taken.

Gentlemen, this IRS offensive Lerner defense is targeted not toward us, who know something; it's targeted to those over there, toward the great mind-washed, who know nothing!

50 posted on 07/19/2014 11:39:23 AM PDT by Swordmaker (This tag line is a Microsoft insult free zone... but if the insults to Mac users continue...)
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