Skip to comments.There's A Mountain Of Evidence Linking Russia To The Downing Of The Malaysia Airliner
Posted on 07/20/2014 12:59:30 AM PDT by elhombrelibre
There's a growing body of evidence that has emerged that links Russia to the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 in eastern Ukraine, despite the best efforts of pro-Russian militants to scrub the record.
Just 25 miles from Donetsk in pro-Russian held territory, the flight carrying 298 passengers and crew was brought down on Thursday, killing everyone on board. The U.S. believes it was likely shot down by an SA-11 missile fired from a Buk surface-to-air missile system.
Both Russian President Vladimir Putin and pro-Russian militants have deflected, attempting to blame Ukraine for the crash. Later, the top rebel commander put forth a conspiracy theory that the passengers actually died days before, The Washington Times reports.
While a full investigation of the site could help vindicate Russia and confirm these theories, it's noteworthy that pro-Russian militants have continually blocked workers from going near the crash, according to The New York Times and others.
(Excerpt) Read more at businessinsider.com ...
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/malaysia-airline-evidence-russia-2014-7#ixzz37zfF0qhh
Putin is banking on Obama, Cameron in Britain, and Merkel in Germany, doing a whole lot of postering and lecturing, but taking few actual measures that will directly effect Russia or their oil sales. Of all three ‘leaders’, Angela Merkel is the most likely to come down hard on Putin, at least rhetorically. Obama will continue to obfuscate, dither, and distract the public as much as possible.
I agree. The weakness of the West’s leaders does encourage Putin to get away with mass murder. He’s used plausible denial and ambiguity to hide his role in these crimes in Ukraine. This crime is a lot harder to deny. His apologists will have to work very hard to get him some cover.
For me, the criminals’ behavior always gives it away.
Like we knew in our core that OJ was guilty, because he was running and suicidal.
Similarly, the VERY FIRST thing Putin does after the crash - even before the bodies are cold - is to blame Ukraine.
Classic behavior of someone who’s guilty. Maybe he didn’t specifically order it, but he provided the tools, and he knew his boys did it - he’s wearing this, and he knows that too.
I really think it was a mistake, but it was not an honest mistake. Putin’s been exacerbating tensions there from the very beginning of the crisis. He’s doing these things so he can reestablish the Russian Empire with himself as the grand new Czar. Other nations near his borders need to fear him and his use of proxies. He is ruthless and steadfastly pursuing his goals.
"For Allah's sake Vlad, not during my vacation..."
He did promise KGB Putin prior to the last election that he would be more "flexible" in his next term.
...flexible on such things as missile defense.
President Obama: On all these issues, but particularly missile defense, this, this can be solved but its important for him [Putin] to give me space.
President Medvedev: Yeah, I understand. I understand your message about space. Space for you
Obama: This is my last election. After my election I [will] have more flexibility.
Medvedev: I understand. I will transmit this information to Vladimir.
More than likely. I have a problem with States funding and arming rebels to undermine governments and then washing their hands of any actions that may occur because of it. I have a problem when Russia does it, when the EU and when the USA and Britain does it. They bear some responsibility with how these weapons are used and who they are supplied to. At a minimum Putin needs to be scolded for this. I will wait and see if his soldiers were directly involved and if so he has to wear the blame politically and should resign or be ostracized by all decent countries!
The manuals, average intelligence, and a few days doing dry runs newer and retrofitted systems even have provisions for dry runs built in.
This guy is without out a doubt pretending that what's required to operate such a system as part of an integrated air defense setup is always required as if there is no standalone mode.
I know for a fact that US defense analysts wrote papers about how easy they were to use in standalone mode back in the mid eighties because I was working for DoD then. It just ain't Effin' Magic they are designed to be as simple to use as possible because the more simple to operate they are the more their average lethality improves. There are fewer screwups with simple to operate systems than with complex systems in a complicated environment and that sort of enviroment dictates the minimum requirements.
Now, if you want to assume I'm just full of crap, fine. There's still the question of why the thousands of veterans in Ukraine who served in the Ukraine or Soviet military would all be veterans who drove trucks, dug ditches, or were Infantry grunts and not in air defense. Air defense was HUGE under the Soviets. Tens of thousands of people have trained on these systems. Not a single guy who's a Separatist from Ukraine though, huh?
So in reality, the degree to which someone needs to be trained to use it is moot point. It doesn't prove anything either way. If it's easy it doesn't clear Russia and Ukraine Separatists are still responsible. If it's difficult it doesn't mean Russia was involved and the Ukraine Separatists are still responsible.
This is all just more of the sort of noise that passes for reporting and distracts attention from the fact that 95% of what they're calling News about this is just repeating press releases and looking for the usual sad, bloody, photos. Turn on the media machine, hit the right hot buttons, and all the people who claim to not trust the media will hop on the bandwagon.
If the US and EU media are all going nuts about something and they all agree, it's to sell something critical to their agenda or to keep something critical to their agenda off the front page, not to get the facts out. The more they quote experts the more likely it is they're quoting experts that are in their pocket the way they trot out "Climate Scientists"
This is another rabbit hole to divert people into.
The murder of 300 people isn’t a false lead or a rabbit hole. Sure the media does what you say but not in this case. A big part of the problem is there is so much corruption it’s overwhelming.
We all know that ZERO will do nothing but run that stupid mouth of his.
There will be lots of AAAAAAANNNNNNDDD's lots of UUUUUGGGGGHHHH's.
Dear loving GOD. Please let us survive for another 2 years. . .
My understanding, also.
"Business Insider" isn't about business, isn't an insider, and is often completely wrong. Telling the difference between a military transport aircraft and a passenger airliner may take some training and effort, but Russian weapons systems are designed to be operated by drunken conscripts who don't even want to be there.
Um, no. The 300 people were murdered by Ukraine Separtists
Take a breath, dude. I know it’s not shaping up well for Putin. Now, how do you explain away the looting by his proxies of the victims? Just bad luck?
How come they shipped the other launchers back to Mother Russia, Boris?
Murdered by Russian troops under Russian commanders using Russian weapons with Russian trying and with Russian approval.
But they did take the Russian patches off their uniforms so I guess that makes it ok.
That’s right. Military gear is universally designed to be idiot proof.
I think your tinfoil beanie is on a bit too tight.
“but taking few actual measures that will directly effect Russia or their oil sales.”
In economics there are elastic demands and inelastic demands. Elastic demands are for luxuries like gum or a faster car. You can defer those or even chose not to purchase. But oil is like a broken leg. A broken leg creates an inelastic demand for medical service. The doctor, if he’s the only one, can charge whatever he feels like and you will pay it. This is why Putin has funded the anti-fracking nuts. We would be the competition for the European oil market. As long as there is little or no competition he can do anything he wants and Europe will turn a blind eye.
That site will never be properly investigated. The scene has been, if reports are right, utterly devastated.
Not to be crass, but the site has become the equivalent of the IRS saying the hard drive crashed—and nothing can be recovered.
Another natural result of the West’s corruption and weakness.
My theory is that no one wanted to shoot down a commercial airline.
If the Ukrainians did it, they thought it was a Russian jet.
If the Russians or the pro-Russian elements in Ukraine did it, they thought it was a Ukranian jet.
Corruption and weakness in the west leads to death and confusion—even in the east.
This is what America (apparently) voted for in 2008 and 2012. America WAS warned that Obama was not a strong leader—by Palin in 2008 and by Romney in 2012. America chose a different path.
We see the result: “re-set button” photo ops and “flexibility”.
Where's your evidence of this occurrence?
Please tell me you have something more substantial than a grainy 20 second video of some truck driving along a wooded road.
Didn't the EU start a rebellion in Ukraine to oust the pro-russian government because they didn't to join the EU?
So you’re saying you don’t want your country to have a strategic edge over its enemies?
If you give someone weapons, training, political support, economic support and approval for their actions then you share responsibility for what happens.
I am a trained radar operator from the 70’s
AN/TPQ-10 and AN/TYA-3
these were not fire control systems, they were long range monitoring (AN/TYA-3) and radar guided bombing (AN/TPQ-10)
the methods of control for the Q-10 would be similar, and this was 1950’s to 1960’s technology
a 4 pulse signal would be sent out, 4 separate signals out of the same antenna, 4 cones of a radar signal, where each of the 4 cones would intersect in the center
think of 4 circles that intersect in the center, think of the olympics symbol, instead of 5 circles, think of 4
I believe we called it a 4-pulse feedhorn array
once we aquired the aircraft on radar, we would move by handwheel, the direction of the radar, moving the radar antenna to face the signal return by moving the radar in it’s azimuth (left to right ) and then it’s elevation (up and down)
when the signal was centered on the intersection of the 4 pulse array, we would flick a switch and the radar would lock on to the aircraft.
the length of time it took for the pulse to generate and return, we would know the distance from the antenna, think of a hypotenuse of a triangle, using math to just measure that time difference between signal sent to signal return at the speed of light...
the radar would have electronic measurement of it’s elevation angle, so we would know how high it was pointed in the sky.
using a surveyor, would would program in the ground location by coordinates of where the radar was physically at and which end was north, what angle the base was pointed at, so the computer system would know which way was north and how the radar was oriented.
knowing where the radar was, and knowing where the aircraft was using the math of the radar return and distance and angle from the radar antenna (slant range, azimuth and elevation), we had a map and a display that would show where the aircraft was in the air.
we woould then direct it to the target, tell him what speed to fly at, what altitude and when to drop his bombs.
Isaac Newton would do the rest, the time of fall from an altitude is a simple physics problem for high school students, and the known speed the aircraf was flying at when it dropped its bombs, we directed it by voice vector to the target, told him when to drop his bombs to hit a target that the pilot was just flying over at the speed and altitude we told him to.
That would get a plane shot down nowadays, but here is my point:
radar systems are much more complicated today, not for the operator, but for the system of control. slewing the radar by azimuth to send out a signal to locate an aircraft might still be possible, but locking on to it using a multiple pulse feedhorn array, or whatever newer array, would be automatic now, controlled by digital systems, not tubes and contactors as my system did.
the training to run this system was 6 weeks, and I learned 2 other systems, the UYQ-3 and the TYA-3, running the radar TPQ-10 was not that hard, what was hard was monitoring and recording the degrees of error they were off the track and direction and recorded altitude and airspeed at the time of dropping their ordanance.
thatall means, a 20 year old Russian kid could have hit the switch.
he would have had a senior NCO as his boss, maybe a 27 year old guy, with a 28 or 30 year old officer being the one who most likely hit the launch button.
they would have had a 10 man unit who set up the radar, ran the electrical power and a/c cooling, drove the trucks to get there, a surveyor to locate the radar or use a GPS system instead. Most likely in this modern world, a gps system to locate the radar to within 3 feet so it knows where it is.
The radar would be sending signals out, receiving signals back, telling the radar where the aircraft is. The missile would be receiving correction signals to direct it’s flight to the target, all controlled by computer, and since the civilian airliner would be flying in a straight line, this would be an easy shootdown, all you would have to do it hit it 1/2 way of full capability of the warhead and that 777 would fall down go boom.
while a novice could not walk up and power this type of missile launcher, most likely each person who ran it was under 30
I don’t know why you think roads are wooden in Ukraine. I’m sure this whole topic is beyond your ken. Not because you cannot understand, but because you cannot psychologically accept that Putin’s proxies would do something like this.
Yankovych's secret police used methods like Putin's buddy Assad to try to stop them, like snipers on rooftops shooting at demonstrators. The overwhelming will of the people, though, ousted the corrupt Putinista, Yankovych. Putin then sent his little green men into Crimea with the Russian identities pulled off of their uniforms. Putin smeared all the Ukrainians who wanted independence as fascists. In elections, only two percent voted for the fascist party.
Putin sees his dreams of reestablishing a Russian empire coming unglued by independent minded people. He and his supporters smear anyone who doesn't agree with him as a queer or a fascist.
No I’m saying I don’t want my country to recklessly hand out weapons to terrorists or those associated with them and then step back and see what happens!
Most of the soldiers who ran Army ADA sites were in there teens and twenties. They’d all been to the school house at Bliss, though, and spent time learning how to operate the system. I agree with comments that doesn’t require a genius, but they don’t just hop on a missile system and start banging away at targets.
The EU may very well have encouraged the take over of Ukraine by pro-EU forces by making promises that meant afterwards Ukraine would have some economic fall back position. I understand that would make Putin nervous I don’t believe that excuses his behavior! It may make it more understandable and it does make u wonder did the EU miscalculate what his reactions would be or do they think so far (other than this very regrettable event) they have managed to contain the damage to be small and acceptable!
Assuming the entire mess lands in the lap of Putin and it was the Russians (as well all know to be the truth), who and what will be done about it? Is this going to be treated just like the plane they shot down near Japan a few years back? Crickets.......................
Recent battles in region of crash site (click for interactive map.)
If the US and EU media are all going nuts about something and they all agree, it's to sell something critical to their agenda or to keep something critical to their agenda off the front page, not to get the facts out. The more they quote experts the more likely it is they're quoting experts that are in their pocket the way they trot out "Climate Scientists..."
I cannot agree with those two paragraphs more. I've been constantly hammering Freepers on the issue of not believe the media, but still take what they are saying as gospel at the same time.
Being in media, I've just watched the media coverage of this and noticed some thing out of normal. One example is lack of censorship of the bloody gruesome photos that would normally accompany such stories. Another is a question that no one apparently wants to ask: "Why would someone WANT to shoot down a civilian airliner full of passengers?"
Or (adjusting tin foil hat for a comfortable fit): Who benefits?
Certainly not the Russians or their proxy agents in Ukraine. But in the PR war, it certainly helps Ukraine, who despite recently singing a deal with the EU was losing, and still has to kiss the Russian ring to get any oil from them (not to mention, pay the money they owe).
It also helps the US by knocking the Southern Invasion off the front page (a little). Not to worry as the part-time occupant at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave will make it all about him .
While I'm at it: did anyone get an explanation on why Reuters originally reported 29 Americans on the manifest? It's just me, but if I ran one of the biggest Euro media services, some heads would roll over getting something like that wrong. I will go this far to say from all reports I have seen in the media and comments from the EXPERTS:
Okay, removing the tin foil hat...
At best, we should say this is some kind of an accident. Be we should all be asking the question of can these systems can be operated remotely. If so, who knows where that could lead.
But to summarize, I must plead with my fellow Real Americans once again to NOT consider the likes of the New York Times and Washington Post valid news sources. There is clearly an agenda being pushed here... by someone.
jimjohn - OUT.
I don’t know who is worse; the socialist EU or Putin. I must confess ignorance, but it seems like two sides of the same coin.
“Being in media...”
Based on your own advice to distrust the media, I’m going to dismiss you and your conspiracy theories. Thanks!
I do wonder myself - it seems to me those allies we used to consider the good guys may not be so much that way anymore - I’m an Aussie and when I see us siding with the EU and UN so much I wonder whether we are the good guys anymore either! I think our systems are so full of Socialists and they hold more allegiance to their fellow Socialists in other countries than they do to their own country I think they are almost ready to at least attempt a full takeover - would only take a good war sparked off by some random incident or series of incidents to get it all going!
Putin has nothing to gain by shooting a commercial airline down. Nothing. This incident has decisively turned world opinion against Putin & Russia, and has weakened their position in the Ukraine. When you look at a possible crime, you always look at a motive. This could have been an accident. Perhaps a rival in the Russian government wants Putin out, perhaps it’s someone in the Ukrainian government or their allies that want to weaken Putin.
But it’s totally obvious, even before the incident occurred, that purposefully shooting down a commercial jet, and being blamed for it, is bad publicity. And it does not appear that Putin, if he did it, acted quickly and convincingly enough to create blame against Ukraine or the West. The fingers pointed immediately to Putin minutes after the incident, and most of the US state run media did not even have the integrity to thoroughly gather and analyze the evidence before making their definitive conclusions.
No flame here. I believe you have made valid points and asked legitimate questions.
I think that Putin is a lot worse. The socialist EU is still a free part of the world where the poorest immigrants from all over try to go. Putin’s Russia is not a magnet for immigrants, maybe for fellow rich capitalist hoping to get a sweetheart deal from Putin and the crony capitalist. Putin’s made it impossible for political opposition to operate successfully. He’s made himself president for life. There in no politician on the scene in the EU like that. The days of Führer and Il Duce are long gone in Europe with Milosevic being the last clownish but brutal dictator. Putin is an anachronism and possibly one of the richest men in the world with much of his wealth stolen from his own people.
Yeah, be skeptical of anyone not supporting Putin’s media. That’s the ticket.
We have plenty of crony capitalism in our own country. We are debt slaves to the FED(eral reserve bank). The EU has all of its member nations under debt servitude, and for all we know, the FED and the EU may be controlled by the same central banking monopoly. So, while Putin may be worse, it is still only a matter of the “lesser of two evils”. I do realize that it is a complicated situation, so I can’t really see a clear good guy vs. bad guy. Whoever shot down MH17 is obviously bad, but unless someone confesses, we may never know for sure who it was.
Again...where is the evidence to support your assertions?
Why did the Ukrainian Security Services (SBU) seize the air traffic control transcripts of the flight rather than just make them public?
“Didn’t the EU start a rebellion in Ukraine to oust the pro-russian government because they didn’t to join the EU?”
Yes, and the interim president they installed gave a speech praising Hitler.
And people wonder why the Russians are unhappy.
You tell me, comrade Boris, what do your handlers tell you in your briefings of today’s talking points?
Okay, but I don’t think I said anything to support Putin’s “media”.
Typical non response from a government brown nose.