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What We Know And Don't Know About The Downing Of Flight MH17 And The 'Buk' Missile System
The Interpreter Magazine ^ | July 21st 2014 | Interpreter Live Thread

Posted on 07/21/2014 3:07:03 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans

What We Know And Don't Know About The Downing Of Flight MH17 And The 'Buk' Missile System

21:12 (GMT)

With all of the developments, debates, new evidence and new disinformation, let's take a look at what we know and don't know about the theory that a Buk missile system shot down Malaysian Flight MH17.

What We Know - The Separatists Had The Buk

The main theory is that a Buk missile system shot MH17 out of the sky. The separatist at one point admitted that they had a Buk, though that tweet has since been deleted. We have created a map of the areas around where MH17 crashed, and we see that to the north and to the south there are three towns where the Buk system may have shot down MH17. They are as follows:

Torez- Located near Snezhnoye, a geolocated picture placed the Buk in the town.

Snezhnoye - A video showing a Buk has been geolocated to the town. Two AP journalists and a Ukrainian journalist reported seeing a Buk in Snezhnoye on July 17th, the day that MH17 was shot down. This is conclusive evidence that at least one Buk traveled in the Torez/Snezhnoye area on the day that the airliner was shot down.

Chernukhino - This one is less conclusive. The Ukrainian government released an intercepted phone call reportedly between separatist military commander and Igor Bezler (Bes, or "Demon") and Vasily Geranin, who is described as a colonel in the Russian Federation's GRU (main military intelligence), in which they talk about shooting down an aircraft in this area. In a second conversation two separatists say that the missile that shot the aircraft out of the sky came from this town.

Bezler admits that the audio tapes are real, but claims they were discussing an earlier incident - the shooting down of a Ukrainian airforce jet. But in his denial Bezler accidentally admits that the separatists are shooting down aircraft from this location, and that they are coordinating with the Russian government.This admission lends credibility to other leaked audio tapes including one in which separatists claim to have shot down MH17 accidentally thinking it was a military transport, and one in which the separatists speak with a contact in Russia and confirm the receipt of the Buk (and Russian crews to go with it).


TOPICS: News/Current Events; Russia
KEYWORDS: mh17
More at link, along with supporting links, pictures, etc. It is a live thread, so if the thread gets updated, this posting will be moved further down.
1 posted on 07/21/2014 3:07:03 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

“What We Know - The Separatists Had The Buk”

In their exhaustive consideration of all possibilities, the author neglects to mention that...

The Ukrainian army also had the Buk.

The allegation is that the Separatists accidentally shot down a passenger plane.

I guess it is totally inconceivable to the author that the Ukrainian army accidentally shot down a passenger plane, even though they did exactly that in 2001...


2 posted on 07/21/2014 3:34:35 PM PDT by Mount Athos (A Giant luxury mega-mansion for Gore, a Government Green EcoShack made of poo for you)
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To: Mount Athos
The Ukrainian army also had the Buk.

Two things you forget to mention:

1) That's not a secret, and the Russkies originally claimed that they stole the BuK from the Ukrainians in the first place (but that is common practice. They always claim to "capture" something from the Ukrainians before shipping it over, and these BuKs were captured in NATO satelight photos on both sides of the border, and identified as Russian weapons with Russian officers training Russian separatists.)

2) The BuKs are confirmed to be in "separatist" held towns, as seen by journalists from AP, geo-located photographs, and confirmed by the "separatists" themselves in their web postings (prior to the shooting).

3 posted on 07/21/2014 3:37:49 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

I didn’t forget to mention anything.

The author is pointedly ignoring an obvious and legitimate possibility, it’s as simple as that.


4 posted on 07/21/2014 4:01:03 PM PDT by Mount Athos (A Giant luxury mega-mansion for Gore, a Government Green EcoShack made of poo for you)
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To: Mount Athos
I didn’t forget to mention anything.

Yes you did, and you still are, since, otherwise, it would have kept you from making the post to begin with.

5 posted on 07/21/2014 4:06:29 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

This is the intro to the article, that claims to be a comprehensive overview of everything relating to the theory that a Buk missile shot down the plane:


What We Know And Don’t Know About The Downing Of Flight MH17 And The ‘Buk’ Missile System

With all of the developments, debates, new evidence and new disinformation, let’s take a look at what we know and don’t know about the theory that a Buk missile system shot down Malaysian Flight MH17.


It turns out the author made a glaring omission in his attempt to provide everything we know and don’t know about the theory the buk missile shot down the plane.

The Ukrainians have the exact same missile, in the same area.


6 posted on 07/21/2014 4:11:44 PM PDT by Mount Athos (A Giant luxury mega-mansion for Gore, a Government Green EcoShack made of poo for you)
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To: Mount Athos
I posted too soon:

The author is pointedly ignoring an obvious and legitimate possibility, it’s as simple as that.

It's only a "legitimate" possibility if you think the separatists, who bragged about it publicly online, albeit thinking they shot down a Ukrainian cargo plane, took videos of it, and are also captured in intercepted conversations admitting to it, and who, with the Russian govermnent, are currently lying that they have Buks (or had, they've been sent back to Russia it seems), are also under Ukrainian control. At that point, we're in cookoo land accusing Strelkov and his murderous goons of secretly being CIA or SBU agents, rather than Russian ones.

With the piles of evidence, and the piles of dead bodies, it is not "legitimate" to propose "possibilities" that fly in their face.

7 posted on 07/21/2014 4:13:57 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Mount Athos
It turns out the author made a glaring omission in his attempt to provide everything we know and don’t know about the theory the buk missile shot down the plane.

Are you capable of rationally explaining this claim?

8 posted on 07/21/2014 4:15:09 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Ukraine accidentally shot down a passenger plane in 2001.

They have the Buk missile, in exactly this area.

If you want to write an article that covers “everything we know about the theory a Buk missile shot down the plane”, it is a gross omission not to mention these facts.

If the plane was an accidental shooting down, how can anyone justify a stronger punishment than was given to Ukraine when they accidentally shot down a passenger plane in 2001?

Wouldn’t it have been common sense not to overfly a warzone, a tiny part of Ukraine, which is easily avoided?


9 posted on 07/21/2014 4:23:44 PM PDT by Mount Athos (A Giant luxury mega-mansion for Gore, a Government Green EcoShack made of poo for you)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

I guess you didn’t hear that the Ukrainians have been shooting down their own airplanes trying frame the peace loving Russian terrorists.


10 posted on 07/21/2014 4:23:47 PM PDT by lodi90
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To: Mount Athos

Why are you willing to parrot Kremlin propaganda but unwilling to accept at face value what a GRU Colonel said? Strelkov said: We shot it down! Why is this difficult?


11 posted on 07/21/2014 4:26:39 PM PDT by lodi90
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To: lodi90

Tell me which of these facts are Kremlin propaganda, and which are simply absolutely true.

1) Ukraine accidentally shot down a passenger plane in 2001.

2) The Ukrainian military has the exact same Buk Missile system, in the same area.

3) The Donetsk/Luhansk warzone is a tiny part of ukraine. It would have been common sense and very easy to avoid. All American and British airlines avoided it, as well as Qantas, Lufthansa...


12 posted on 07/21/2014 4:30:02 PM PDT by Mount Athos (A Giant luxury mega-mansion for Gore, a Government Green EcoShack made of poo for you)
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To: Mount Athos

“The Ukrainians have the exact same missile, in the same area.”

The missile system has a finite range. How far inside the Separatist controlled area was the aircraft when it was shot down? If you want to make the claim that it is possible that the Ukrainians shot down this aircraft then you have to establish that the missile had the range to hit the aircraft unless it was fired inside Separatist controlled territory.


13 posted on 07/21/2014 4:38:45 PM PDT by DugwayDuke
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To: Mount Athos
They have the Buk missile, in exactly this area.

You aren't understanding something: The "separatists" already admitted that they were shooting "exactly in this area," that the Buks are theirs (though they deny it now), and also, it's just plain stupid to claim that the photographed Buks in "exactly this area" are Ukrainian when the place is run by Russkies.

Ukraine accidentally shot down a passenger plane in 2001.

And like us, they also admitted the mistake. The Russkies are blaming it on Ukraine and on secret NATO plots after their guys looted the corpses, and left them rotting for 3 days, to show us all how humane they really are.

Wouldn’t it have been common sense not to overfly a warzone, a tiny part of Ukraine, which is easily avoided?

It was 10KM up in the sky, about double the range of MANPADs and anything else they ordinarily had. The only way they'd be shot down is if a state government, with trained officers, fired on it, which is exactly what happened.

14 posted on 07/21/2014 4:40:49 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Mount Athos
And I forgot to remind you again:

The "separatists" already admitted to shooting it down. They even took the time to erase their online postings after they did it, but only after it was quoted and preserved widely, doubling down on the stupid.

15 posted on 07/21/2014 4:42:08 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

The article claims to be a comprehensive overview of the facts.

It should include the facts I mentioned, as well as the ones you have mentioned.

I certainly agree that your theory is more likely.
That doesn’t justify suppressing facts outside the scope of the most likely theory.

If there are reasons for discounting facts, mention it so your readers can see and decide for themselves, but don’t neglect the facts altogether.


16 posted on 07/21/2014 4:44:59 PM PDT by Mount Athos (A Giant luxury mega-mansion for Gore, a Government Green EcoShack made of poo for you)
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To: Mount Athos
You didn't answer my quetion. Russian GRU Colonel Strelkov took credit for the shoot down. Case closed. If Ukraine did it why are the Russians controlling the area destroying the crime scene BEFORE an investigation? Does not compute. some_text
17 posted on 07/21/2014 4:46:00 PM PDT by lodi90
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To: DugwayDuke

“The missile system has a finite range. How far inside the Separatist controlled area was the aircraft when it was shot down? If you want to make the claim that it is possible that the Ukrainians shot down this aircraft then you have to establish that the missile had the range to hit the aircraft unless it was fired inside Separatist controlled territory.”

If the article was well written, it would have included this topic and explained how it dismissed alternative theories.

Instead of not mentioning it at all and suppressing facts that don’t support its main theory.


18 posted on 07/21/2014 4:54:06 PM PDT by Mount Athos (A Giant luxury mega-mansion for Gore, a Government Green EcoShack made of poo for you)
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To: Mount Athos

Mount Athos: Stop with the disinformation.

Assuming that MH17 was flying over 32,000 over Eastern Ukraine, where was it heading? Donestsk? Moscow? Anywhere in eastern Crimea?

No, it was high enough to be an international flight heading east/southeast and going out of Ukrainian air space.

This was NOT a military plane because the Ukrainian transports shot down by the pro-Soviet “insurgents” were at low altitudes, which is where military transport planes fly, not at 33,000 heading out of the country.

A little common sense and knowledge of flight plans destroys your made-in-Moscow conspiracy themes.

Also, any radar profile of the large 737 would show that it was not a transport, since the BUK is a sophisticated radar-guided system that could do that. Also the speed differences between a military transport and a civilian airliner are significant.

The shot-down was no accident. Now, whether the Soviet-aided “insurgents” (often GRU or Spetsnaz troops, hired Soviet neo-Nazis (Yes, they have been hired as Soviet mercenaries), and Russians living in the Ukraine, definitely knew that MH17 was a civilian plane is still something to be discovered.

However, the shoot-down was a coldly planned operation and given the altitude of the plane and the direction it was heading in, those who fired pretty well knew that it wasn’t a Ukrainian military plane.

Since they had shot down several Ukrainian govt helicopters, two transports and two fighter-bombers in recent weeks, the “insurgents” were on a roll so anything that flew was a target, civilian or not.

MH17 was NOT A THREAT to the pro-Russian forces! What they did was cold-blooded murder and Putin made it possible whether he gave the order or not to shoot it down.

When someone says “Will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest?”, it doesn’t take a genius to understand the covert request/order implicit in it.

Mouth Athos: change your name to Mount Pathetic. It is more appropriate to your pro-Russian disinformation campaign.

DISINFORMATZIA! You can’t write your crap without it.


19 posted on 07/21/2014 5:52:24 PM PDT by MadMax, the Grinning Reaper
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To: MadMax, the Grinning Reaper

Well done!


20 posted on 07/21/2014 6:04:27 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Mount Athos

BUK systems are not much good in the hands of the Ukrainians since SAMs are programmed NOT to shoot down Russian planes.

Shirley you knew that —


21 posted on 07/21/2014 6:28:06 PM PDT by Uncle Chip
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To: MadMax, the Grinning Reaper

I have not introduced any disinformation.

I have pointed out three true facts that the article should have included, but did not. It claimed to be a comprehensive review of the facts, but it neglected some really big ones.

If you read my comments, you would notice I said the theory that the Separatists shot down the plane is far more likely to be true.

But you are typing away as if I have put down that the Ukrainians must have shot down the plane.

Because your reading comprehension is poor, and you type before you think.

“MH17 was NOT A THREAT to the pro-Russian forces! What they did was cold-blooded murder”

Ukraine accidentally shot down a passenger plane in 2001.
Would you describe that as cold blooded murder?

What told you it couldn’t possibly have been a misidentification? Your psychic powers? The voices in your head? They intentionally shot down a passenger plane — for what motive? It benefited them — how?


22 posted on 07/21/2014 6:36:56 PM PDT by Mount Athos (A Giant luxury mega-mansion for Gore, a Government Green EcoShack made of poo for you)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

You think that was well done?

Then do you agree with him that the shooter knowingly targeted a passenger plane?


23 posted on 07/21/2014 6:40:15 PM PDT by Mount Athos (A Giant luxury mega-mansion for Gore, a Government Green EcoShack made of poo for you)
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To: Mount Athos
Then do you agree with him that the shooter knowingly targeted a passenger plane?

The "former" Communists operate under the basis of provocation, and they have been killing themselves to accomplish it for a long time. They were already shelling their own cities in the East from Russian soil to blame on the Ukrainians, and I know their character well enough that shooting down a plane would not be very out of character for them. There is a great deal of evidence, even more powerful than what we've seen here with the airline, that the FSB bombed Russian apartment buildings to stick the blame on the Chechens in order to start a patriotic war. I also know that the "separatists" are in direct contact with GRU handlers from Russia, receiving orders, which they themselves have admitted to, as the reference to Bezler in the article shows. I also know that it is very unlikely the these Buks would have been manned by just anybody, and most likely there is a mixture of "volunteers" recruited from Russia and GRU officers on the scene.

It is not against their character in any way, although, it certainly is a great failure on their part, if it was indeed on purpose, that they failed to shut their "separatists" up after the deed was done, which put the blame square on them instead of the Ukrainians they would have likely wanted to blame.

24 posted on 07/21/2014 6:58:53 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

there is no way that the separatists could have fired that missile...the system is very sophisticated and Oliver North has stated that it takes 2 years of training to efficiently use that system....the Russians own it and the Russians fired it......period.


25 posted on 07/21/2014 7:59:36 PM PDT by terycarl
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